RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamenco guitars

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aaron peacock

Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM)

That is an impressive build (your first!?) and a lovely guitar, Jonas.
I'd be quite proud of that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2020 22:25:42

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

Jonas, I agree with HR that those holes look a little big. I use a #51 drill, a little over 1.5 mm. It is possible to "move" string holes on a completed bridge using abrasive cord, but that also widens them a little and should be a last resort.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2020 23:33:01

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

Thank you for your help! The second try was much more successful. I did as you said with a bit of CA, an awl and a smaller drill bit. I also came back to a six hole design with a shorter distance between the saddle and the tie block. The wings are now 3.6mm thick. I just gave it a quick coat of shellack. Will that be enough to prevent it from bleeding colour to the soundboard? Bogdanovich first does the shellac finish of the whole guitar before he glues on the bridge. But I like to do it the other way round to be able to put some strings on and listen to the unfinished guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2020 23:57:05

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

quote:

That is an impressive build (your first!?)

Thanks! Yes my first :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2020 23:58:17

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

Do we actually want the bridge as light as possible for flamenco guitars? I mean to allow more amplitude in vibration and fast response?

Another question... do I have to do something to the soundboard before I glue the bridge to prevent colour bleeding?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2020 10:01:57

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

quote:

Do we actually want the bridge as light as possible for flamenco guitars?

From an earlier reply of mine: “ Remember, the bridge is also a brace; it doesn’t hurt for it to have some mass, there is a sweet spot to the weight and going lighter after that can work against it.”

This was buried in the paragraph where I was cautioning not to go too thin on the wings. There is no one answer to any specific weight, as going lighter or heavier depends on factors such as the characteristics of the top and the execution of the bracing. At this phase it’s probably wise to simply focus on being structurally sound and following standard dimensions. The weight will fall out of that and shouldn’t be the focus of the design. Just my two cents...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2020 11:14:29

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

Ah yes, you wrote that... sorry. Well I will leave it as it is now. What about colour bleeding? Do I need to put some shellack on the top as well before glueing? Well, of course not at the glueing surface, but around somehow?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2020 12:58:08

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

To seal Rosewood I use a little folded up piece of t-shirt and wipe on shellac until no more color comes off. If there is still some color coming off the bridge, you can use *delicate* painter's tape to mask off the top right around the bridge and keep sealing it.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2020 0:51:39

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

you can use *delicate* painter's tape to mask off the top right around the bridge and keep sealing it.

So you do that when the bridge has already been glued on?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2020 7:09:02

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

quote:

So you do that when the bridge has already been glued on?

Yes.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2020 17:57:46

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

quote:

So you do that when the bridge has already been glued on?

Yes, you can apply quick light coats of shellac, allowing them to dry quickly between coats until built up enough to apply heavier coats. Then proceed with the rest.

You might want to tape off the bridge while doing the light coats first.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2020 17:58:37

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

First try on the unfinished guitar :-) Very exciting moment. Sound is very blanca like. Very good highs, growling basses, fast attack... I am very happy so far. Now is time for the finish... well I guess I will have to read the chapter about shellack polishing again... how was that...? First a thin coat on the dark woods... then grain filling with pumice... first thin coats... oil only in the end... how long do I have to wait between the coats?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2020 22:14:56

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

quote:

how long do I have to wait between the coats?

Wait until they are dry to the touch, not sticky. This way you'll add to the coats rather than wipe off the preceding coats.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2020 15:30:07

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

But that dries quite quickly... just a few minutes... that's enough?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2020 15:37:36

JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Mango! Looks really nice! Such an exciting moment to put those strings on that box for the first time , right? I want to reach through the picture and play it.

Keep going until you can’t stand it anymore than let if gas off

The initial wash coats dry pretty fast especially when you are using a lighter cut. Pablo Requenas video series on polishing on YouTube? It’s pretty good, his way is one of many and he gives some general guidelines on how far you should go each session but so many variables.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2020 16:05:08

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Yes, the first few coats dry quick and then they need to dry longer as you go.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2020 2:49:03

Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

Awesome! Guitar looks lovely. Yeah Jason.ha.I have that urge to reach in as well!
Cool rosette

Good work.Well done

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2020 9:03:12

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

Thanks Guys!
Yes I watches Pablo Requenas Videos about French polishing. So I will fill the pores with pumice powder later when I start polishing with oil? First some buildup without oil or pumice right?

Another thing. I found it very difficult to sand the soundboard without rubbing the ebony dust from the bindings into the soundboard... Is there a technique that I am not aware about to do that?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2020 12:39:18

JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

You can sand close to the binding and then finish by sanding off the edge of the top in one direction. That way you don’t pull the black dust back onto the soundboard.

For pumice, I don’t think you want to have oil on the surface, you just need some coats of Dry shellac on there for the pumice to grind up and Push into the pores

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2020 15:41:24

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

Getting closer with my French polish... its far away from perfect, but as this is my first try, I'm ok as it looks already. Well I obviously rubbed some fibres and dirt into it, bus as there are many "first try spots" visible in this guitar it fits very well ;-)

How long should it dry in the end before I put on the golpeador?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2020 10:48:36

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

Congrats, stringing up your #1 for the first time is a really special moment. Let's see the finish

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2020 17:14:38

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

quote:

How long should it dry in the end before I put on the golpeador?

I don’t want to give a bad answer. The short and easy response is to wait as long as you possibly can. I generally wait at least a week, then do a clean up and final polish before applying it. The main thing is to be sure to wait long enough for any oils that might be trapped in the shellac to rise to the surface so they can be wiped off. Naphtha can be used to clean off any oil residue, but the polish I use seems to serve the purpose.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2020 17:35:40

ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

She sure looks nice in the white, sure she looks better with the shellac!

Couple things: shellac takes some time to dry, about a year really, and shrinks up exposing all manor of flaws. Best to wait a couple weeks at least before applying the tap plate so you are sure your are happy with the finish.

Might really wait a month... use a temp tape on golpeador.

Took about 6-9 monthes for the shellac to really cure up and then the guitar brightens up some, a lot on others. She might sound a little flat once you strung her up so don't be surprised.

Thinking you are building a fairly stiff box, mine are 1000gram lightweights so your mileage may vary?

Of course keep in mind I've only done a handful with the last one being the first I would show friends and family ;)

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2020 19:14:11

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

Wow, patience seems to be luthiers most important ability right? ;-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2020 22:05:39

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

For what it's worth, here's my French polish timeline (after pores have been filled):

1. Bodying: 6-8 days of two short 20-30 minute sessions per day building up shellac on the whole guitar. No oil.

2. One week of drying

3. One day to wet sand to level with 1000 grit

4. Two days of polishing with thin shellac and oil, with t-shirt covered muñeca. One hour-long session each day.

5. One week of drying

6. Polishing compound to remove oil, then stick golpeador and string up.

The whole thing takes about 4 weeks, but as it's been said before the "perfect" FP could easily take up to a year.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2020 1:08:32

ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango)

While the shellac is between processes you start building another guitar ;)

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2020 3:07:05

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to ernandez R)

quote:

While the shellac is between processes you start building another guitar ;)

I actually thought about that... anyway I will have to build a Negra and a classical one as well... ;-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2020 11:21:48

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

1. Bodying: 6-8 days of two short 20-30 minute sessions per day building up shellac on the whole guitar. No oil.

2. One week of drying

3. One day to wet sand to level with 1000 grit

4. Two days of polishing with thin shellac and oil, with t-shirt covered muñeca. One hour-long session each day.

5. One week of drying

6. Polishing compound to remove oil, then stick golpeador and string up.

Wow... o... k... looks like I have to slow down a bit. My timetable was more like

1. Messing around with bad polishing clothes

2. Buying other ones

3. Rubbing dirt into the wood

4. Wait five minutes

5. messing around with olive oil

6. noticing that the polish was too thick

(...) ;-)

well actually it was not that bad but I definitely need to be more patient. Thanks for sharing your method!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2020 11:27:18

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

This it how it looks now. Still rubbing around with the oil... getting better results now with a bit of sanding in between and with thinner shellac. Still hard to wait...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2020 11:30:01

mango

Posts: 158
Joined: Apr. 2 2019

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to aaron peacock)

There was a gap at the butstrip which I successfully filled with pumice powder, but unfortunately I rubbed to hard so that I took some of the black colour and smeared it around :-/ Don´t want to do everything again... Do you think its ok for a #1 guitar?

Also I find it hard to get rid of these little buildups around the bridge. I sand them down but they come back as soon as I add another coat... how can I do that?

Thanks!