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RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamenco guitars   You are logged in as Guest
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RobF

Posts: 317
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Btw I like your shop.

We’re going to have to do a “show us your shop” thread. I like looking at other shops, it’s generally humbling, but I always get great ideas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 1:57:25
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1364
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

It sounds like RobF glues the planks up the way I do. I have a suggestion for gluing the stack of planks together: Take a block of wood, maybe 10 cm x 10 cm in cross section and as long as your sticks. Use a table saw or router table to cut a rectangular channel in it lengthwise, just wide enough for a plank and deeper than the log will be. The extra depth is for a plunger that you will make of another piece of wood that will be the width of a plank. Okay, I lied a little bit: make the channel wide enough to fit the planks wrapped in wax paper. I think you get the idea. Apply glue to the surfaces to be glued and assemble the log. Then wrap it in waxed paper and push it into the channel, followed by the plunger. Clamp the plunger to the block.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 3:02:28
 
mango

Posts: 46
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

Thank you guys for your thoughts!

@JasonM - That sounds promising. I can imagine it is much easier to keep everything lined up when the glue is more liquid and when all planks get in contact with the glue at the same time... maybe I will give it a try although it will probably be a big mess and waste of glue ;-)

@RobF - yes, probably it would be possible to fix it the way you described. But as I became very quick in cutting veneer strips during this first try ;-) I decided to do it again and make one big stack of 20x20 that will be much more easy to line up. Also in the first try the motive got a little distorted, so in the end I also think the result will look better if I do it again. At least if I improve my way of applying the glue, haha

@Ethan - Thanks for sharing your method. Unfortunately I have no table saw. I made another fixture as you see on the photos. Perhaps the problem was more about applying the glue. Also maybe I used too much pressure for the clamps, I don't know...

quote:

Btw I like your shop.


haha, thanks! It is actually very small but nice. It is a cellar that seems to be used as a shelter during the second world war. It has a very old and heavy steel door at the entrance. In the 80s it was a rehearsal room for some punk bands. The whole building was a squad at this time. Now we use the other rooms as a recording studio...

I would love to see some pics of your shops. And also your glueing tutorial RobF!





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 9:53:16
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1364
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

quote:

Unfortunately I have no table saw.

You could use a router (table) to make the channel. I wanted to upload a picture but haven't been able to lately (not with Firefox, but now okay with Safari). I think the jig with a plunger would help a lot. In your setup, you have nothing to align the planks side to side (up and down in your photo--where I realize that you are gluing up veneers to make planks).



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_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 14:34:23
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 505
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

quote:

if you haven’t started over or cut the sticks into tiles yet, you still might be able salvage this


Yes, it doesn't look that bad. The base of the loop (the open part) is luckily at the bottom of the tile (once assembled from the quarters) so planing the tiles will only reduce the open 'thread' part a little on each side of the tile. The loop itself might be affected at its widest part (being lower than the apex of the angled side) but it might not be too blatant. It will also maybe leave the loop base with a slight upward angle but it doesn't look like it would be too pronounced. If the tile was reversed, planing the tile would remove the edges of the loop which would be visually obvious (I would think, bearing in mind my limited experience).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 16:32:46
 
Armando

Posts: 279
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

The solera with a ramp is something that i would consider to be an invention of José Luis Romanillos rather than Bogdanovic and it is a thing tipically used on classical guitars as Romanillos have built classical guitars only. Regardless, i would not say that the system as such doesn't make sense in a flamenco guitar too. It just has to be adapted for the flamenco guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2019 20:41:19
 
mango

Posts: 46
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Finally the second try was more successfull. Glueing the planks all at the same time with more liquid glue and using less pressure made a big difference. Thank you guys!







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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2019 11:44:07
 
RobF

Posts: 317
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

Looks great!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2019 15:30:48
 
JasonM

Posts: 1031
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

Wow it does look super clean!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2019 15:53:46
 
mango

Posts: 46
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

Thank you :-)
So, next step is to make the rosette. A few questions:

Do you use a circle cutter to cut the channel into the soundboard? Does it work with a router as well? Standard router bit?

Is it a good way to cut small channels for just a few strips first... then glue them in, plane down and then cut the next channel when the first strips are dry? Or maybe start with a big channel for the tiles and then cut the channels for the strips around them afterwards?

Pablo Requena describes a method in a youtube tutorial where he cuts the whole channel first. Then he fiddles in everything, takes it out again with some tape in one piece, then puts the glue and fiddles in the whole piece with the tape back again...



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 14:43:46
 
mango

Posts: 46
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

This guy just puts super glue from the top when all strips are fiddled into the slot. Perhaps more easy than taking out everything again? look around 8:00min...

https://youtu.be/IwPSqJS2uEE
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2019 22:48:57
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1364
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

Sometimes it is easier or better to do it in sections, like route the channel (yes, with a router) for the central mosaic and inlay that. Then route the channels on both sides of the mosaic for the next lines or half herringbone, or whatever and inlay them. Etc. That way you keep things more even and can even round off the corners of the mosaic with the router.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2019 4:33:40
 
RobF

Posts: 317
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

quote:

Do you use a circle cutter to cut the channel into the soundboard? Does it work with a router as well? Standard router bit?


Hi Mango. Sorry for the late response, I haven’t been on the Foro and missed your question. If it’s not too late, I’ll throw in my two cents...

Either router or blade is good, the main concern when cutting the channel is to not mess up the edges. If a blade is used always run the cut with the grain. If a router is used then a spiral down-cut bit works well. It can be a good idea to sneak up to the edge with multiple cuts, especially when the bit gets older and is not as sharp.

I’ve tried all the installation methods mentioned in the earlier posts and each method has its good points and bad. At this point, I like doing it with individual channels.

The tape method works well and is really just a variation on how a premade rosette is installed. The fit benefits from being kept a very small amount loose. Working gently from the edges while not applying any pressure at the centre until the full rosette is inserted is the key. Keeping the edges glue free is also important, as the glue will swell the wood and make the channel tighter. Care must be taken not to force anything and avoid collapsing the wood at the edges of the channel. The edge of a ruler or stick can be used to push the rosette edges sideways to give some more space. It’s better to remove the rosette and start over if trouble arises.

Installing the components dry and then fixing with ultra thin CA can also be done. If there is any concern about the bottom not getting enough glue, a few very small holes can be drilled through the the rosette channel and the glue then applied through the holes from the back. A rosette patch can serve to cover these holes afterwards. It is very important, if this method is used, to not get any CA into the space between the top and the outermost veneer strips of the rosette. CA will discolour both cedar and spruce if it soaks into the end grain. To seal that portion, either use hot hide glue or apply a wash coat of shellac first before applying the CA.

Using separate channels has more steps and takes longer to do but it removes a lot of the stress from the process. A few other advantages are - the border routes can clean up the edges of the mosaic tiles, it allows experimentation with different border schemes before committing to glue, and a good snug fit can be made for the borders, which leads to a nice, crisp looking result. If this method is used it’s a good idea to clamp the top to the workboard and not move anything until the entire job is done. Any movement of the pivot pin in relation to the top can throw a subsequent circle cut out of alignment with the previous.

There’s lots of other ways to do this, too. Same with mosaic tile making, lots of ways to do it. Some are more production oriented and are geared to making a lot of rosettes at once. It’s good to try the different methods as you come across them and then settle on the one that works best for your own circumstances. I guess that applies to pretty well every step in the guitar making process.

P.S. I didn’t watch any of the videos referred to in the previous posts, so please forgive if I’m just restating stuff already covered in them.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2019 15:45:42
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