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Guitarra de tablao?   You are logged in as Guest
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NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 117
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

Guitarra de tablao? 

Hello All,

Years ago a student of mine brought back from Spain a José Ramirez blanca from the 1920's with a spruce top that had a very pronounced arch. I didn't much like the guitar, if I recall correctly, because it was weak in the bass.

It stuck in my memory as an oddity, and lately I've been speculating that it might be a guitar made especially for use in a tablao to have mostly treble response, to be heard over the loud sounds of a singer//dancer.

I see that Ramirez has brought out a new tablao model available as either a blanca or a negra. I've not seen one in the flesh, but it looks like a copy of a rather higher priced guitar than the one that my student owned.

Any info on guitarras de tablao would be most appreciated.

Thanks,

Brian Burns
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2019 20:01:46
 
Echi

 

Posts: 550
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to NorCalluthier

Well, best source would be to ask Richard Brune’ or to look for something about it in the old issues of American Lutherie.
I read something about them in a couple of books (I think in a catalog regarding an exhibition held in Madrid and the usual urlich book) and somewhere I saw a plan of one of these guitars but I never had one of these guitars in my hands.
To make it short, it seems like it was Francisco Gonzales (the teacher of the 2 Ramirez brothers) to invent those “egg shaped” guitars and that they were quite requested in Madrid at the beginning of the century.
The guitars of Gonzales, mostly classical guitars; are quite easily identifiable at the first sight by the very large plantilla, small sides, very pronounced doming of both back and top and very big concentrical rosettes.
José Ramirez I (at the beginning together with Manuel) settled a small company making and selling different model of these kind of guitars but without making any specific distinction between flamenco and classical guitars.
The story is that Manuel left his brother José and the Ramirez company (pretending to be going abroad) and instead he settled a new shop in Madrid with few employees (Santos Hernandez, Domingo Esteso and Modesto Borreguero) to compete with him.
Manuel offered basically the Torres model of guitar while José the egg shaped guitars of Gonzales.
To make it short the guitars of Manuel prevailed on those sold by the brother and bye bye to the egg shaped guitars
The first formal distinction between classical and flamenco guitars (guitarra for aires populates and later “de tablao”) appears in a catalog of Manuel of the beginning of the last century but José used to make an analog egg shaped model.
I’m sure that Gal has a plan of a Gonzales.
If you need some measures I can take them from Romanillos catalog or the Urlich book.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2019 9:54:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10994
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Well, best source would be to ask Richard Brune’ or to look for something about it in the old issues of American Lutherie.
I read something about them in a couple of books (I think in a catalog regarding an exhibition held in Madrid and the usual urlich book) and somewhere I saw a plan of one of these guitars but I never had one of these guitars in my hands.
To make it short, it seems like it was Francisco Gonzales (the teacher of the 2 Ramirez brothers) to invent those “egg shaped” guitars and that they were quite requested in Madrid at the beginning of the century.
The guitars of Gonzales, mostly classical guitars; are quite easily identifiable at the first sight by the very large plantilla, small sides, very pronounced doming of both back and top and very big concentrical rosettes.
José Ramirez I (at the beginning together with Manuel) settled a small company making and selling different model of these kind of guitars but without making any specific distinction between flamenco and classical guitars.
The story is that Manuel left his brother José and the Ramirez company (pretending to be going abroad) and instead he settled a new shop in Madrid with few employees (Santos Hernandez, Domingo Esteso and Modesto Borreguero) to compete with him.
Manuel offered basically the Torres model of guitar while José the egg shaped guitars of Gonzales.
To make it short the guitars of Manuel prevailed on those sold by the brother and bye bye to the egg shaped guitars
The first formal distinction between classical and flamenco guitars (guitarra for aires populates and later “de tablao”) appears in a catalog of Manuel of the beginning of the last century but José used to make an analog egg shaped model.
I’m sure that Gal has a plan of a Gonzales.
If you need some measures I can take them from Romanillos catalog or the Urlich book.


Ramirez III describes this guitar in his book, his personal one is maple, and until last year when I got this catalogue I had never seen a pic of one. This is the replica they are selling, it’s not that egg shaped thing you describe:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=317197&appid=&p=1&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#317197

As we can see it’s a sort of evolutionary stepping stone from Torres classical to the modern flamenco. Ramirez III admits his dad stubbornly clung to this design of his grandfather as his great uncle Manuel took over popularity with the Flamencos with his design (the clear model of the modern flamenco). Important to note that cypress was NOT necessarily prefered to rosewood or maple back then, knocking down the old opinion that PDL and Conde introduced the negra in the modern era.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2019 17:46:24
 
Echi

 

Posts: 550
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to NorCalluthier

Posted some pictures on the general section.
The guitar is quite egg shaped even if the pictures do not pint point this.
Olivier Fanton D’anton, a quite renowned and expensive maker (also famous as he made the main guitar of Roland Dyens) uses a top doming of 1cm at the bridge and you wouldn’t notice it from the pictures.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2019 8:31:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10994
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Posted some pictures on the general section.
The guitar is quite egg shaped even if the pictures do not pint point this.
Olivier Fanton D’anton, a quite renowned and expensive maker (also famous as he made the main guitar of Roland Dyens) uses a top doming of 1cm at the bridge and you wouldn’t notice it from the pictures.


Oh dang... your eggs must be quite weird looking where you are from, I’d hate to see the chicken!

Anyway, I know Gonzales is the influence and teacher of Jose I, however the tablao Guitar looks a lot more “normal” to me. Your pic of the Manuel is certainly based on the tablao Guitar of jose I, however the Jose II is some lower end model, I don’t think it’s meant to be the tablao Guitar.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2019 14:25:37
 
Echi

 

Posts: 550
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to NorCalluthier

Well, if I am not wrong the first step towards the modern flamenco guitar should be attributed to Manuel and not to Josè.
The book “Thinks about the guitar” is a book written (by a pillar of the modern guitar) to enhance the myth of the Ramirez House, but does’t say the whole truth in many regards: for instance it doesn’t mention that the two old Ramirez brothers were aggressive competitors who couln’t stand each other.

At the beginning, the two Ramirez brothers used to work together under Jose’’s guidance.

The picture of the 1889 guitar is interesting because refers to the time when Manuel was still working in the same shop with Josè, building Gonzalez style guitars and nonetheless that particular model of guitar (probably belonging to Manuel) looks like a prototipe of a Guitarra de tablao, due to the small cypress ribs..

At a certain stage Manuel decided to cut and wanted some money to cover his share of the company, pretending to plan to go abroad. He instead opened a shop in Madrid and used his contacts to become the main shop of the conservatorio de Madrid. Easy to imagine how tense were the feelings between the 2..

Manuel is the guy who listed the first guitarra de tablao in a catalog some years before his brother.
The guitarra, described as guitarra “per aires populares” was nothing else but a light Torres style guitar made of Cypress: the actual maker was one among Domingo Esteso, Santos Hernandez or Modesto Borreguero.
The reason Manuel prevailed over the brother and we hardly know today about Jose’s guitars de tablao is the high standard of the journeyman employed by Manuel, the quality of his guitars and the endorsement of Segovia.

Ramirez II also left to Argentina during the civil war, while Santos kept being in Madrid

Ramirez III deserves great consideration imho but the inheritance of Manuel (who didn’t have sons) passed through his journeymen: Santos, Barbero and Arcangel (or through Esteso and the Condes if you want to follow the other line) without contacts with the casa José Ramirez.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2019 0:09:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10994
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to Echi

Of course agreed with all that, except Ramírez III admits openly in his book to the problems between José and Manuel, puts his dad down for missing the flamenco boat, and admits to following his great uncle in terms of his Flamencos. It’s been a while since I read it but I do remember that he clearly did not favor the jose line over Manuel ->santos->barbero etc.... at least does not give that impression.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2019 13:18:27
 
Echi

 

Posts: 550
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Guitarra de tablao? (in reply to NorCalluthier

quote:

Ramírez III admits openly in his book to the problems between José and Manuel, puts his dad down for missing the flamenco boat

Btw is it not the same that happened with him?
I mean, the first flamenco blancas designed by Ramirez III were quite successful ( Sabicas, the young Paco...) but then in the seventhies Ramirez III Just gave up developing the flamenco model and lendorsing flamenco players.
It’s true that he hardly could fill the demands of his classical but it’s also true that Ramirez IV admittedly repented and tried to correct the route.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2019 13:40:08
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