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Piwin

Posts: 2174
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to kitarist

And another "duh" moment for me
Thanks, that makes perfect sense.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2019 18:50:17
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1235
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RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to constructordeguitarras

It is not only possible to flatten a fretted note, but also quite easy. I do that sometimes to give that 3rd degree in Phrygian scale a graver expression. All you have to do is keep the finger level vertically, push on the string firmly and pull towards the bridge.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2019 18:56:41
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1327
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Grisha

quote:

It is not only possible to flatten a fretted note, but also quite easy. I do that sometimes to give that 3rd degree in Phrygian scale a graver expression. All you have to do is keep the finger level vertically, push on the string firmly and pull towards the bridge.


Thanks, Grisha.

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www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2019 19:27:43
 
kitarist

Posts: 535
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Grisha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

It is not only possible to flatten a fretted note, but also quite easy. I do that sometimes to give that 3rd degree in Phrygian scale a graver expression. All you have to do is keep the finger level vertically, push on the string firmly and pull towards the bridge.


Yup. Pulling the string (its segment "stuck" to your finger, meaning you have to have a firm-enough contact with it so your finger is not just sliding on top of the string as you try to pull) toward its fret, or the bridge - same direction - lowers the vibrating string tension momentarily, which flattens its pitch.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2019 19:35:59
 
RobF

Posts: 232
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Grisha

Wow Grisha, it seems so obvious when you say it. It makes perfect sense but I’d never really thought about it. I guess I’ll never stop learning.

(Missed that Ricardo said essentially the same thing earlier)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2019 19:36:51
 
JasonM

Posts: 895
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to RobF

Ricardo said earlier
quote:

Once a player can accept the fact you can also make the string go flat by leaning toward the bridge, t


But I tried pulling toward the bridge and it didn’t work for me. I’ll have to try some more when I get home
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2019 20:47:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11055
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
And guess what...when you fret a G at the third fret after having tuned your open G to the linear sum functioned “sharp by 2 cents” 4th interval sequence (implying an open G 6 cents sharp from what it should be based on low E), you end up with a perfectly tuned octave between the two G’s. Unless you fret the G carelessly like many do.


Now I am confused as to what that tuning method is. I thought it was as follows:

1. Tuning fork A -> tune open A (5th string) to that (5th fret harmonics, which is 2 octaves up from open A, which is unison with the tuning fork, which is 440Hz);
2. Tune 6th string 5th fret harmonics to match 5th string 7th fret harmonics. This results in 6th string being 2 cents sharper than what it should be.
3. Tune 4th string 7th fret harmonics to match 5th string 5th fret harmonics. This results in 4th string being 2 cents flatter than what it should be.
4. Tune 3rd string 7th fret harmonics to match 4th string 5th fret harmonics. This results in 3rd string being 2 cents flatter than what it should be based on 4th string, which is also 2 cents flatter than what it should be based on the properly tuned open A - so it is 4 cents flatter than what 3rd string should be.

Hmm, not sure how the rest goes for string 2; let's say

5. Maybe you tune string 1 open E to low E 5th fret harmonics. This results in string 1 being 2 cents sharper than it should be (same as string 6).
6. Tune 2nd string 5th fret harmonics to match 1st string 7th fret harmonics. This results in 2nd string being 2 cents sharper than what it should be based on the 1st string, so 4 cents sharper than it should be.

So compared to equal temperament EADGBE tuning, we have:

E+2, A=true, D-2, G-4, B+4, E+2

For the G-g octave example, if you mean 3rd fret G on string 6 and open g on string 3, that open G would be 6 cents flat compared to the 3rd fret G on string 6.

Man I am starting to doubt all this, it is late. Someone let me know if I effed up in deriving this.


1. Correct
2. Not by my ears or any tuner I have used. Simply put if the E string is off by 2 cents as you say, from the A string, then any interval you try to play between the two strings will beat out of tune. Any and every interval pretty much. This is not the case in reality when you tune the harmonics correct with no beats. The two string result in sweet 4th or 5ths for any and all chords. Of course thirds/ 6ths are gonna be off AS THEY SHOULD BE.... cuz you want to be able to play in EVERY key.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2019 21:10:21
 
kitarist

Posts: 535
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

2. Not by my ears or any tuner I have used. Simply put if the E string is off by 2 cents as you say, from the A string, then any interval you try to play between the two strings will beat out of tune. Any and every interval pretty much. This is not the case in reality when you tune the harmonics correct with no beats.


Interesting. The 2 cents off is a theoretical fact, strictly from the physics of strings. Maybe it does not amount to much in practice because the physical model is over-simplified.

I personally have never tried to tune my guitar this way because I started in the classical world, and there it seemed an accepted fact that using 7th fret harmonics for open-string tuning is not a good idea because of the difference between the frequencies of a pure fifth and a tempered fifth. I'll try it at home and see if I can find or demonstrate a difference using my Peterson StroboClip HD tuner - which is accurate to 0.1 cent.

In the days before chromatic tuners, if you start from a single point of reference, the recommended tuning procedure was to tune every string separately to the one reference-tuned string (e.g. to the open A) - however that involves fretting or tuning octaves (rather than unisons) in places. The idea was that by tuning each string separately to the one reference string, the accumulation of tuning mistakes was avoided (mistakes would accumulate if one tunes 1st string 5th fret A, say, and then proceeds tuning each 5th or 4th fret to the previous open string in sequence from 1 to 6).

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2019 23:27:53
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1327
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to JasonM

quote:

But I tried pulling toward the bridge and it didn’t work for me. I’ll have to try some more when I get home


After Grisha explained, I tried it and it worked. See, I told you.

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www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2019 0:13:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11055
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

quote:

But I tried pulling toward the bridge and it didn’t work for me. I’ll have to try some more when I get home


After Grisha explained, I tried it and it worked. See, I told you.


Another conspiracy destroyed! Thanks Grisha for piping in...I was gonna make a video.

quote:

Interesting. The 2 cents off is a theoretical fact, strictly from the physics of strings. Maybe it does not amount to much in practice because the physical model is over-simplified.


To kitarist...I admit I am tuning harmonics only by EAR....so perhaps I have evolved a way to hear it such that there is not the 2 cents issue. What I hear as “not beating out of tune” is in fact because my ear hears the 7th fret harm as slightly sharp relative to open A and I instinctively flat the adjacent string relative to it? Hard to believe but in any case, whatever I am doing (I think of it as making perfect 4th intervals between the adjacent open bass strings and the G, and the top two treble strings) results in the best tuning to other instruments and itself that is possible, and it’s super fast and accurate, I rarely need to fine tune anything unless bad strings. Without trying too hard, I can imagine if I deliberatley attempt to throw off the perfect 4ths by 2 cents (by ear) as per the chart, I will certainly end up with a very messed up guitar LOL.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2019 23:31:03
 
JasonM

Posts: 895
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to constructordeguitarras

I think I got it. I grabbed a string with my thumb and index and pulled as hard as I could towards the bridge. Sure enough if went flat! Great trick.

Ok seriously I got it now for real. Pretty cool! Like I have a tremelo bar. I feel like an empowered ancient Egyptian with new alien technology!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2019 0:08:56
 
jalalkun

Posts: 266
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Piwin

i don't get it. still... 😵 ricardo, please make a video 😂

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2019 12:06:31
 
RobF

Posts: 232
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to jalalkun

quote:

Ok seriously I got it now for real. Pretty cool! Like I have a tremelo bar.

quote:

i don't get it. still... 😵 ricardo, please make a video 😂


Oh man, this is getting out of control. I can see it in lights now...

En Vivo! Sólo una noche! Jason y Jalal!!! Los Maestros del FLAMENCO-SURF!

Tocando sus grandes éxitos.....Peteneras Gunn!...Surfeando USA!...Pequeña Anciana del Pasadena!... y mucho más!!!

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2019 15:12:29
 
JasonM

Posts: 895
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to RobF

Just so happens I’m a fan of the Flamenco Surf.

Jalal, you have to “pull” the string with the fretting finger so that it goes slightly slack along the length of the string running from the fret to the bridge. It’s Almost like you are trying to force it into the fret wire.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2019 16:11:44
 
RobF

Posts: 232
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to jalalkun

Jalal, if you try what Jason is saying on one of the wound strings the effect is very apparent. By pulling it towards the fret you’re basically reducing the string tension between the fret and the saddle.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2019 16:17:07
 
jalalkun

Posts: 266
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Piwin

aaaaaah, now I get it. you fret the string and press into the fret to make it some parts of a mm longer, thus making it go flat. for a second there I thought I had to pull the string with my right hand.

tried it out. pulled so hard the peg came off 🤪🤣

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2019 17:29:01
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1327
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to jalalkun

Although I concede that I was mistaken and it is possible to flat a fretted note, I find that I am only able to do so very slightly and only on a wound string. I find the effect to be minimal compared to the amount that my tuning goes off due to warming by my fingers and I find it difficult to do and can't think of much use for it--especially since I can't imagine it being possible in a fretted chord, where it would matter. I would be curious to see a video of someone making good use of the technique.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2019 18:06:56
 
RobF

Posts: 232
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to jalalkun

quote:

tried it out. pulled so hard the peg came off 🤪🤣


That’s OK, you can still be in the Flamenco-Surf band, if you wanna be.

Keith Richards only ever uses five strings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2019 18:50:49
 
jalalkun

Posts: 266
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Piwin

i agree Ethan, it wouldn't be practical for counteracting sharp notes while actually playing something. never seen someome put it to use actually, didn't even know it was possible before this thread 😂

Rob, please don't kick me out of the band, I'm a good flamenco surfer 😢

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2019 12:24:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11055
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

Although I concede that I was mistaken and it is possible to flat a fretted note, I find that I am only able to do so very slightly and only on a wound string. I find the effect to be minimal compared to the amount that my tuning goes off due to warming by my fingers and I find it difficult to do and can't think of much use for it--especially since I can't imagine it being possible in a fretted chord, where it would matter. I would be curious to see a video of someone making good use of the technique.


Jeeeez ok guys here ya go. I agree with Ethan 100% about temperature. I’ve had strings (trebles) go entire half step sharp going from cold car to warm gig. I often tune my trebs back down to where they were before starting the show as each song heats them up. So what I show here is 1/4 tones or so worth of manipulation. For the record, every video I’ve ever posted I’m doing this thing to some degree, so it’s not just this exaggerated demo here, I’m always doing it.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2019 18:45:32
 
JasonM

Posts: 895
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Ricardo

Great video! I guess I will start blaming myself rather than my guitar. I ran the E major scale up the fretboard and did have to intonate the G# a little. Really cool I’ve learned a lot from this. So you never alter the b string if you are playing in por medio? I guess putting that longer neck on your guitar was great experience good thing you didn’t listen to your father.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2019 22:09:06
 
RobF

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Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Ricardo

Top notch vid! Real world, practical advice. 👍
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2019 22:43:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11055
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

Great video! I guess I will start blaming myself rather than my guitar. I ran the E major scale up the fretboard and did have to intonate the G# a little. Really cool I’ve learned a lot from this. So you never alter the b string if you are playing in por medio? I guess putting that longer neck on your guitar was great experience good thing you didn’t listen to your father.


No I don’t do that typical thing of drop the b string a hair to sweeten up por medio. It litterally only works if you play say siguiriyas with the exact same voicing over and over. As soon as you have that letra that goes to C chord or F chord or the E cambio, those are all sour as hell. So i much prefer to have my guitar prepared for other keys that might come up.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2019 23:13:32
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 442
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Ricardo

Bravo. That was very instructive Ricardo. I think, having watched that I do do some compensating as I play but it certainly hasn't ever been thought through and is pretty much by ear only, bending notes up in pitch where necessary (laterally). Something to think about, thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2019 23:27:21
 
JasonM

Posts: 895
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Ricardo

Get this man some bass strings!

Thanks. And regarding compensation, have there been any guitars that you’ve had or played with really good intonation? Of course nothing is ever going to be perfect. or do you find many non Condes are over compensated?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2019 1:31:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11055
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

Get this man some bass strings!

Thanks. And regarding compensation, have there been any guitars that you’ve had or played with really good intonation? Of course nothing is ever going to be perfect. or do you find many non Condes are over compensated?


Simply put, I think I am ok with guitars that are NOT compensated at all or very much, and notice a guitar has a lot of compensation because I need to counter compensate unnaturally (such as my dad’s guitar). In the end there is no such thing to me as a guitar with “good” intonation, only “bad” intonation as the case with a defective guitar that has a fret in the wrong place (most often the space between nut and first fret being too long the guitar can’t even be played in tune at all unles you use a capo. I think the zero fret is a way to fix this issue, however it is the rare case of a construction error.), OR the neck is bent or other such thing, bridge or saddle damage etc. Again good intonation has to do with the player, and I feel compensation is necessary as luthiers have noticed the problem of player’s playing sharp as they venture up the fingerboard. Lower action guitars are hard to accidentally bend sharp as the string doesn’t have much distance to cover on its way down to the fret, and also low action players tend to play softer, both hands. Hence we find many very old flamenco guitars with extreme low buzzy action that are not compensated at all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2019 1:52:01
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2576
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Ricardo

Just vs. tempered 4ths: I challenge just about anybody except maybe a professional piano tuner to tell the difference.

Using Kitarist's numbers (I'm too lazy to calculate them) a tempered 4th between the open A and D strings will indeed beat out of tune. But the duration of one cycle of the beat is a little more than six seconds!

My Arcangel blanca has a long sustain for a flamenca, but even a full six-string rasgueado chord dies away rapidly enough that I strongly doubt anyone could hear a six-second beat. Same goes for the classicals.

Using the 5th harmonic on A and the 7th on D raises everything by two octaves and divides the beat cycle by 4, but I say hearing a 1 1/2 second beat cycle on a sound that is rapidly dying away would be beyond the capabilities of most.

Furthermore, the string goes sharp when you pluck it, and flattens as the sound dies away. You can see this on an el cheapo clip-on tuner. With a strobe tuner having 1/10-cent accuracy (and precision) this effect will make you seasick if you keep looking at the display.

Professional piano tuners work with beats this long, but the piano's sustain is immensely longer than that of the guitar.

As several here have noted, as soon as you put your fingers on the strings and warm them up a little, any super precise tuning goes right out the window.

This is not to say that the distinction between tempered and just intonation is never important.

As a kid trumpet player I was taught to play in equal temperament using a strobe tuner. For example, this proved useful for playing solos with piano accompaniment. Then we graduated to brass ensemble work. To make the chords "ring," your lips have to move to just temperament. Fortunately there is a slight feedback effect among the instruments that helps you to "lock in" the chords.

OK, I can't resist: Following is OT. Giovanni Gabrieli was the Principal Organist (and maestro) at St. Mark's Basiica in Venice at the end of the 16th century, beginning of the 17th. He had a big budget to work with. He wrote and presented works for multiple wind instrument choirs placed at different places around the huge church. The Sonata Pian' e Forte is one of the earliest known pieces of music with dynamic markings.

Played on modern instruments by some of the best symphonic brass players of their day, you can hear their accurate intonation in the quiet intro, but when the score says "forte," they don't hold back. You can hear the combined brass choirs lock in and ring. At age 16 I played the piece at the National Cathedral in Washington DC with some of the leading brass players from the National Symphony and the national military bands, and some of their students. It made the hair stand up on the back of your neck.



RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2019 5:28:07

Piwin

Posts: 2174
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks. This opens up whole new territory for me.

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"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2019 15:35:07
 
jalalkun

Posts: 266
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Piwin

thanks for the great video ricardo, very much appreciated. gotta fiddle with that in the future 🤔

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My name is Jalal.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2019 16:14:38
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1418
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Tuning our guitars (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks Ricardo, for taking the time and efford to make this video.
Very clear and usefull.

This is a really “ear-opener” to listen closer to what I am playing,what sound I produce, AND how I become a better Guitarist.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2019 16:16:17
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