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flyeogh

Posts: 447
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

Changes in Andalucía 

Interesting that after 36 years of socialist rule Andalucía (the most populous region of Spain) now has a right-wing government.

The far-right element (Vox) beyond supporting bull fighting, being anti-migration, and having some ideas men need equality (seems odd to me in a very macho society), want to promote flamenco. Quite what form the latter may take who knows but I guess there won't be many here complaining

Spain is a weird place

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2019 10:20:17
 
Escribano

Posts: 5845
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

Political divides run very deep in Andalucía - stemming from the civil war - and still significantly upset village communities.

Interesting paper:

Andalucía flamenca: Music, Regionalism and Identity in Southern Spain

https://orca.cf.ac.uk/49178/18/ANDALUCIA%20FLAMENCA%20Machin-Autenrieth%20%282%29.pdf

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2019 14:04:29

Piwin

Posts: 2164
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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

Don't forget that they're unitarians. There's a reason the first item on their website is "unidad de Espana". I wasn't around Andalucia when the Catalunya crisis happened, but, in Madrid and Castilla y Leon, goddamn I've never seen that many Spanish flags out... That's the event that put Vox on the map.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2019 14:21:25
 
flyeogh

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Piwin

I'd be a bit wary linking spanish nationalism with the Catalan issue.

What I see here is a swing to the right due to the inept response by the traditional socialists. There is extreme unemployment here (ignore spanish government lies, which even if true would be horrific), and many jobs I would class a slavery. And when they see the Africans selling goods on the sea front extreme right-wingers can easily sell the idea that immigration relates to job losses. Sadly there were very few jobs to lose in the first place.

Many of my neighbours would have a hard time telling you where Catalunya is. I chatted to a lady running single handily a bar the other day. She said she had visited Madrid for a day but didn't like it so had never travelled further than Sevilla (one hour by train) in her life. Well into her 50s. In my own spanish family, many of Andalucia, that isn't unusual. In contrast the family in Catalunya are well educated.

Anyway sorry a bit off topic. My thought was "how are they going to promote Flamenco?" Enforced school teaching perhaps?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2019 15:06:12
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 841
Joined: Dec. 7 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

There's a general sense of upsetment and people are fed up with the build-up of the political, social and economic situation over the years. When people go in the voting booth they tend to put the cross on whoever they feel could fullfill a few of their specific needs, the majority doesn't look or care with the broader picture. Most of the 11% of the andalusians who voted for Vox are not "franquistas". Look at what happened two months ago in Brazil, same thing but a hundred times worse. Fortunatelly this far-right trend doesn't look to be blooming here in Portugal anytime soon.

Regarding flamenco and bullfighting, they have nothing to do with politics and I don't see the point of mixing them together.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2019 15:19:35

Piwin

Posts: 2164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

Sure. Same thing gave rise to Podemos a few years back. The inept governance, and particularly the corruption, opened the floodgates for them. Anyways, it's probably a mixed bag, as it always is, but they've been very loud about that issue of a unitary state. I wouldn't discount it entirely. I mean, when PP and Ciudadanos made their joint programme for Andalucia, Catalunya was mentioned in the first line... The way they were portraying it in some areas was basically that the Catalans were rich ****s who wanted to leave with their money and not show any solidarity to the rest of Spain. So in areas of high unemployment (which is basically everywhere in Spain except a few cities) that can resonate. Ultimately their platform is to get rid of autonomia completely and just have one centralized government.

Anyways, sorry I pulled the thread off topic! To the relationship between Vox and flamenco, I honestly don't think they are the ones driving this. In the run-up to the elections, they were the only party that didn't have any policy proposal at all to support flamenco. In fact, some aficionados I know who follow politics more than most had expressed concern about them, because their plan included getting rid of the Instituto Andaluz del Flamenco and slashing Canal Sur, which has been a powerful tool to promote flamenco. So my guess is that the proposals you're hearing about now really came from PP-Ciudadanos and Vox just had to go along with it as part of that alliance. And IIRC, the PP-Ciudadanos proposal was to vote in a law to protect flamenco, whatever that means PSOE's proposals was funding new festivals I believe.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2019 15:58:04
 
flyeogh

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to FredGuitarraOle

quote:

Regarding flamenco and bullfighting, they have nothing to do with politics and I don't see the point of mixing them together.


I'd have to strongly disagree with that. Flamenco and Bull fighting here represent a feeling of culture and unity. Both are seen as in the blood of the people.

VOX use both to promote their form of nationalism and from the meetings I have seen they do it well. They certainly see both as tools of politics.

For sure, IMHO, they confuse "the demise of Flamenco" which is due to competition, and the demise of Bull fighting, which relates to those against animal cruelty.

Last season I sat on a bar stool while the woman (I'd say 60+) yelled many times "buen chico" at the TV as a guy killed a bull while inflicting maximum pain. She apologised to me many times for demonstrating her passion and excitment.

Here in Spain, and I think it is the root of why I love them and hate them at the same time, their culture and politics are truely entwined.

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2019 16:03:31
 
etta

 

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

Change and lots of it, happening rapidly, often moves people to the right politically. Change may create fear, intolerance, and in today's world, much xenophobia with so many displaced populations. It should be no surprise that VOX celebrates bullfighting and flamenco; in turbulent times aspiring political leaders know how to use the past, both the good and the bad, to their ends. The U.S. is a good example of this reactionary response to change i.e. "Trumpism". But, whatever the dynamic in Andalucia, save flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2019 17:36:02
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 841
Joined: Dec. 7 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

I'd have to strongly disagree with that. Flamenco and Bull fighting here represent a feeling of culture and unity. Both are seen as in the blood of the people.

It's undeniable that they are used as political tools. My point is that political parties should address culture as a whole and not cherry pick into flamenco or bullfighting. They are not exclusive to the left or the right, neither to any specific social class.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2019 1:53:08
 
joselito_fletan

 

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

quae est panis et circenses
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2019 18:59:20
 
Escribano

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From: England

RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to joselito_fletan

quote:

quae est panis et circenses


Ita, factum est

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2019 19:29:55

Piwin

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Escribano





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2019 9:06:52
 
Brendan

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Piwin

Unitarians? Are you sure? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2019 9:19:48

Piwin

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Brendan

No, I'm not sure at all! But the Merriam-Webster online includes the secondary definition: "an advocate of unity or a unitary system", so I took a chance. Any suggestions on a good word to describe this? The idea being that they want to do away with regional autonomy and have one single centralized system.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2019 9:54:01
 
joselito_fletan

 

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Piwin

LOL.
I don't do politics, specially Spanish politics, but as a Spaniard, Andaluz and basically an everyday schmuck who emigrated to Canada, it opened my eyes to how "la idiosincrasia hispana/andaluza" works from an outside view.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2019 12:11:50
 
Brendan

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Piwin

Tricky. The only words I can think of for that refer to the central institution that is being strengthened at the expense of the region or locality. So in the UK, it’s ‘unionism’. In the US, I guess ‘federalism’. What is the word in Spanish for this tendency?

I was just entertained by the thought of VOZ types attending the same church as Benjamin Franklin and Mary Wollenstonecraft.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 9:57:16

Piwin

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Brendan

quote:

attending the same church as Benjamin Franklin and Mary Wollenstonecraft



Dunno if there's a word in this context. I do know that the civil war after Argentina's independence opposed the "federales" to the "unitarios". But I don't know whether that word could also be used here or whether it refers specifically to the Argentinian political movement.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 10:19:26
 
joselito_fletan

 

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Brendan

quote:

I was just entertained by the thought of VOZ types attending the same church as Benjamin Franklin and Mary Wollenstonecraft.


Did you mean the Hellfire Club? .

I would like to quote Benjamin in Spain's context of "La sociedad del bienestar" which so many spaniards have been sold.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty".

Spain has to start understanding that freedom is not "Hacer lo que te salga de los huevos!", but that the loss of dignity that many feel is our own fault and it is up to us to live and learn from the consequences of our own actions. And the change that they want specially the young, comes at a cost that might take generations to come into fulfillment, and that "they" must work for that change. Carrol Quigley in his book "Evolution of Civilizations" wrote that once the tools of progress become institutions, that progress becomes stagnated ( I am paraphrasing here). Spaniards must learn to pick themselves up by their own boots and not let the institutions/state overwhelm the society itself.

Never in my life have I been called a "fascista", "machista", "violento" so many times as I have my last couple of trips home apart from the xenophobia I suffered as a youngster (I carry gitano blood on my fathers side). Maybe I'm a libertarian at heart, which seems to piss people off 'cause I elect my freedom over a sense of security, and understand that my actions have consequences. My freedom ends where yours starts and we must work in that middle ground in between. Those carrying the flag of "equality" and "tolerance" here are the least of both.

In conclusion, that is why I say, bread and circus in a previous post. VOX, Podemos, they have no real solutions to the problems, so all you get is pure "populismo dogmatico"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 12:19:48
 
BarkellWH

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From: Washington, DC

RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to joselito_fletan

quote:

In conclusion, that is why I say, bread and circus in a previous post. VOX, Podemos, they have no real solutions to the problems, so all you get is pure "populismo dogmatico"


Interesting discussion. If I may inject my own opinion of "populism," I hate it. I despise populists of both the right and the left. In the United States we have President Trump as a right-wing populist and Bernie Sanders as a left-wing populist. We see what Trump has done, and Sanders promises pie-in-the-sky ideas that he will never be able to finance. Abroad, there are the right-wing populists making headway in Europe, and left-wing populists such as Hugo Chavez and his successor Nikolas Maduro, who have brought Venezuela to its knees. And Brazil has just elected a strong right-wing populist.

What I despise about populists is they always appeal to the lowest common denominator. They always drive a country's economy into the ground, whether they are of the left or the right. And yet, as we have seen, many people follow and support them like lemmings following each other over a cliff.

Bill

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And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 15:52:20

Piwin

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to joselito_fletan

quote:

Spaniards must learn to pick themselves up by their own boots


I know it's never meant that way but I can never get over the face value of that expression. Pulling yourself up by your boots (or bootstraps) is impossible, except perhaps for the Baron of Münchhausen, who was known for similar feats that defy physics. It would be a good study for a linguist interested in enantiosemy to see how an expression that meant "do something impossible" came to mean "take responsibility for yourself". Truth is, only a VIOLENT MACHO FASCIST would use that expression.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 17:05:04
 
mrstwinkle

 

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Piwin

Raining cats and dogs does not mean it is raining cats and dogs.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 17:16:26

Piwin

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to mrstwinkle

Not the best comparison IMO. It's not a matter of seemingly absurd imagery, but one of a word/expression coming to mean the opposite of what it theoretically should. If both uses are concurrent, it falls under the category of enantiosemy. Examples include the word "fast", which can either mean "moving quickly" or "not moving", the verb "to dust" which can either mean to add or to remove dust, or the expression "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less".
After a while, people don't notice it anymore. However, when it's still in the process of being incorporated into the language, it's not uncommon for people to react negatively to the new meaning the word is taking on.
Ask people here how they feel about the new meaning of "literally", and I'm sure you'll find some who have very strong feelings about it (reactions they would not have for imagery like raining pets). In fact, you'll also find some who take issue with meanings that have long since been incorporated into the language (for instance, the use of "decimate" to mean "annihilate everything", which is quite the opposite of "killing 1/10th", i.e. killing a small minority). So goes it.
I just happen to find that it's a rather regrettable development of language that telling someone they should be responsible can also be interpreted as meaning that what they should do is impossible. Especially when the expression is so often used as part of the description of an entire country's dream. While not nearly liberal enough to fully subscribe to the American narrative, I do find a lot of value in the American dream. The fact that one of the most common phrases used to describe that dream points to its inherent impossibility is, well, unfortunate.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 19:04:19
 
flyeogh

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

The one I like is "wicked" which has gone from a negative to a positive. And of course is used differently by different age groups.

But I can't get hung up on language. If English wasn't forever changing, evolving, rich, offering: poetic licence, non-literal phrasal verbs, sayings, etc. it wouldn't be of much use or so entertaining.

As for my spanish family members who accept their lot as 'just the way it is!!!!!'. I have to bite my tongue. Not literally of course

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 21:10:02
 
joselito_fletan

 

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

As much as this discourse is interesting, I think you might have hanged yourself on this one piwin. Like I always say, I am just a schmuck. I am no philosopher, learned man, or any other status that embodies me any social right as a holder of tangible truths. But their might be some logical fallacies in you response. Might it be a red hearing, by taking me into your side of the discussion, where etymology, morphology of words is important to you, you might be a wordsmith, I don't know you personally so you know... "estas barriendo pa' tu campo". Could it be a strawman, by trying to make your position look stronger "buscandole tres patas al gato", or an appeal to authority as in calling on the institutional definition of the phrase itself setting it in stone.

Of course how do we want to look at language? as something living that changes and is redefined over time either be it by institutions to meet the new moral, ethical attitudes, ______<---- insert reason here of it's time, or the people who use it on a day to day bases and change it to meet their needs in the context and social consensus which it takes in that group. One could argue that it is both. Good discourse sometimes comes from setting your definitions for what is to be talked about to not fall in circular arguments, and have things move along.

As I said, I am not here to lay down truths about what is going on in Spanish society, at the end of the day I just regurgitate s^%t. What I am proposing in my words, is that an outside look at the problem, giving it a different spin, through someone else's prism. One might convey ideas of why things they way they are, with sweeping generalizations on my part of course

Cheers and it is good to talk about this in an sensible manner where we can agree on things or just agree to disagree, and maybe the next time around sides can come closer.

"Viva el betis manque pierda!" You should watch Jose Maria Perez Orozco's video on youtube about it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 22:57:25
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1538
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Piwin

quote:

In fact, you'll also find some who take issue with meanings that have long since been incorporated into the language (for instance, the use of "decimate" to mean "annihilate everything", which is quite the opposite of "killing 1/10th", i.e. killing a small minority).


Umm… present and correct, Sir.

The problem I find is that every time I see the word used, I need to estimate both the age and the literacy-level of the person concerned*; and even that doesn’t always work.

*And if it’s in a book, the date the book was written.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2019 22:59:48
 
Brendan

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Piwin

One who pulls himself up by his own bootstraps might be described as a “self-made man”. This is of course a metaphysical impossibility. And yet, we know exactly what sort of person this expression describes, and no-one with an ear for poetry ought to complain about it. I take it Piwin was just enjoying the ambiguity and absurdity here.

It’s said that every expression in Sanskrit has four meansings: its principal sense, the opposite of its principal sense, the name of a god, and a position in the Karma Sutra.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2019 0:14:56

Piwin

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to joselito_fletan

Sorry joselito. If you have the impression that I was arguing that one meaning was correct and the other wasn't, then I did a poor job in communicating what I was trying to say. There's no appeal to authority, no appeal to an institutional definition (in fact, if we looked up the definition in any of today's dictionaries, I doubt you'd find any reference to the meaning I was referring to, or if you did, you'd probably see that it was qualified as "archaic"). It was just an observation that the expression once meant one thing, and now means something that basically contradicts that older meaning.

I find those cases of "opposites" fascinating, in part due to an observation I've made several times in my former career as an interpreter. That observation is just this: when you make a mistake, which you inevitably do, if you say something that is 90 degrees off, everyone will notice it, but if you say the exact opposite, 180 degrees off as it were, people either correct it in their own minds or it doesn't even register as a mistake. For instance, a man says "I want to buy X". If I get it wrong and translate it as "I want to sell X", usually nobody in the room will react. And the rest of the discussion indicates that everyone understood "buy" and not "sell". However, if I get it wrong and say "I want to loan X", then everyone reacts and asks for clarifications. I don't have any particular insight into why that is. I just find it fascinating!

As for my reaction to the bootstraps expression, I don't have any argument to justify it. When I hear it, for whatever reason the literal meaning jumps right up in my face, and it gives a rather cynical meaning to what is being said, even if I know very well that cynical meaning is not at all intended by the speaker. It's like the word for a female cat in French ("chatte"). As in other languages, it has come to refer to female genitalia. I happen to have a female cat. Using the masculine ("chat") solves the "problem" but it also doesn't feel right to me. And when I use the feminine, well, I just know that the association to sexual imagery is so strong for a lot of people that they're always going to giggle. They know very well what I mean, but that association is just there in their minds and I'm not sure there's anything they can do about it.

As for Spanish politics, I honestly don't have any big opinions about it. All I've argued here is that 1) the "unity of Spain" is a concern for a lot of people who voted for Vox (which is borne out by the surveys at least) and 2) Vox probably isn't the force behind these measures to promote flamenco. Beyond that, I have no strong opinions about Spanish politics or the underlying psychological or cultural reasons that lead people to vote one way or another, or who's right and who's wrong. I'm just a guest here, nothing more. Hell, I struggle enough to understand why the people in the mancommunidad behave the way they do for decisions about our tiny little building! I'll have to leave understanding larger political motives for another day.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2019 8:41:38
 
joselito_fletan

 

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to flyeogh

Thanks for the apology piwin, but no need to do so. At the end of the day it is just internet banter, and what I perceive as a refreshing discussion on some of the adalusian idiosincrasias . He who has sat around in a typical andalusian get together and you let the food and drinks flow, inevitably conversation can turn very intersting. At least for me. At the end of the day, "Cada uno es de su padre y de su madre"

To get back on topic about this whole thing, I'm guessing VOX just wants to use Flamenco for it's own purpose, as could use the Jota, Muneira, sardana etc......

If they get their way, and we us flamenco aficionados agree, po' na flamenco por un tubo pa's to! y a disfrutar!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2019 10:29:17
 
joselito_fletan

 

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RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

What I despise about populists is they always appeal to the lowest common denominator. They always drive a country's economy into the ground, whether they are of the left or the right. And yet, as we have seen, many people follow and support them like lemmings following each other over a cliff.


I totally agree. I have had the opportunity to sit down and listen to many Venezuelans and now Nicaraguans tell their view point of such affairs in their home countries. Over the past year or so, I have seen an influx of much more Nicaraguans into the Guanacaste region of Costa Rica ( I have a place down there), and Venezuelans have been heading up that way for the last 10 years or so.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2019 10:38:09
 
kitarist

Posts: 522
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Changes in Andalucía (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
It was just an observation that the expression once meant one thing, and now means something that basically contradicts that older meaning.


Another one is 'bully', as in e.g. 'bully pulpit'. This is supposed to mean good pulpit, nothing to do with meanies and bullies, however the negative meaning of noun and verb 'bully' is starting to seep into the adjective, so this phrase is starting to be understood as a 'loud, far-reaching, bullying.. platform".. The positive meaning of the adjective survives in the phrase "bully for him/her/you' which basically means good for you. 'Bully' (noun) itself used to mean gallant, admirable, and only after the 17th century acquired basically the opposite meaning.

Also, I think your observations about people more easily understanding/correcting complete opposites show how much word meaning is determined and re-enforced from the surrounding context. So in cases where the word used is on complete disagreement, people rely on the context (I guess, probabilistically, because it is more likely to misspeak one word rather than misspeak a whole paragraph) to flip it, whereas in more oblique situations it is less clear in which direction to apply that reinforcing context.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2019 19:31:33
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