Lining/peones used by Reyes

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JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Lining/peones used by Reyes

So this Reyes plan calls for peones that are only 1/8 thick. The back lining is 1/8th thick too. It struck me as pretty thin. Especially for the peones, since many people use thicker triangle blocks. Doesn’t leave much room for binding either. Any of you that have built from this plan go with this?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2018 20:22:12

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to JasonM)

If it’s a typical trad Blanca then the back probably doesn’t have purfling and you should be OK with a 3mm deep liner. But that seems pretty lean for the top. If you do go with 1/8” peonies, then you will have to make sure the purfling depth is less than the thickness of the top, so that only the top wood is contacting the liner. If the purfling channel cuts through the top to the liner then I would be concerned there is too little support for the top.

Just my opinion. If I were using that plantilla I would increase the depth of the blocks and give the top more support. But I don’t do copies, so I don’t give a hoot if a guitar comes out sounding like a Reyes or not, as long as it comes out sounding good, lol.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2018 1:27:57

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to RobF)

quote:

I don’t give a hoot if a guitar comes out sounding like a Reyes or not, as long as it comes out sounding good, lol.

I think i might just go with traditional peones then. Just prepped all my lining today now that I’ve changed my mind. The peones in this plan look like a solid piece of 1/8 inch lining cut into half inch square pieces and placed like traditional peones with no gap. I remember Echi saying this was an exception to what he’s seen in other Reyes guitars. Don’t think this guitar will sound like a Reyes anyway with my LMi Engleman top!. Don’t think I will be using a back purfling so that’s good.

Thanks again Rob! I went with your advice on my Solera too. I kept the perimeter on a flat plain, slight dome on the lower bout, and a 1/4 inch recessed pocket along the neck area. Glad I did. I did make it on a cnc router but it probably took me twice as long drawing the thing in cad and trying to get it completely level on the machine for the dome. Let me know if you need anything like a dish or template cut! Happy to return the favor! I’ve got the process down now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2018 1:58:26

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to JasonM)

Hi Jason, take a look at this:
http://www.rebrune.com/1970-manuel-reyes-blanca/

I’m not against the soling linings (my old beloved Conde has solid linings btw) but I think in this case you should go for tentellones as similar as possible to those used by mr Reyes. Just my 2 cents..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2018 10:14:49

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to Echi)

My old Conde is the same, solid liner for the top, but kerfed liner for the back.

The purfling on the top is quite narrow, by eyeballing it, maybe about 1.1mm. There’s also purfling on the back, a bit wider, maybe 1.3mm tops. A visual inspection suggests the solid liner for the top is about 3mm.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2018 14:24:39

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to Echi)

quote:

Hi Jason, take a look at this:
http://www.rebrune.com/1970-manuel-r

Hey Echi, those peones look to be a bit thicker, maybe 4mm? I’d be willing to give this style a go. A little more meat than the 3mm

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2018 14:27:54

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to JasonM)

Yeah, 4mm seems to be a reasonable estimate. The example shown also doesn’t have any back purfling.

There are a couple of things about that guitar that are curious. The heel cap does not appear to be original, along with about 3mm of the heel itself. The replacement would have been done after the back was mounted, IMO, but quite possibly could have been done by Reyes during the build. The description says the guitar is unaltered and original, so one can only assume this was the case. Who knows? They probably confirmed this with Reyes.

The other thing I find curious is the statement that Reyes intentionally planed back bow into the neck with the intent to make the instrument more percussive. Say what?? Don’t do that, lol.

At least to my opinion, and no disrespect is intended to anyone, the only reason a maker would intentionally plane back bow into a fingerboard is if they were concerned that the neck wasn’t as stiff as they would like and were trying to compensate in advance for the possibility of excessive relief. Another reason for its occurrence could be as simple as getting a shipment of fretwire with a slightly larger tang than expected and inadvertently compression fretting back bow into the neck while fretting. In other words, a mistake. I can’t see why any qualified maker such as a Reyes or Barbero would ever incorporate back bow as design intent.

Regardless, just don’t do it, nobody’s going to give you a free pass if you show them a guitar with back bow and try to pass it off as “this is how the Old Masters did it....”.

We should do a thread listing some of the things guitar players, shop owners, and luthiers say about guitar making with “True”, “Maybe”, “Bunk”, “Total Bunk”, “Mythos”, Marketing”, and “Unexpurgated BS” columns. The checkmarks in the “True” column might feel a little lonely, lol.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2018 16:58:07

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to RobF)

Anders and Aaron Greene were going back and forth about the back now in Brune’s Barbero: (scroll down)
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=65470&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#65470

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2018 18:23:27

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to JasonM)

Thanks Jason. I just read through that thread and it looks like Anders and I are pretty much on the same page with respect to our feelings about back bow.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2018 18:55:28

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to JasonM)

The 2003 plan calls for 3 mm “continuous” linings but this is admittedly an author’s deviation from the original 2003 guitar.
I’m not saying it makes great difference. Probably a continuos lining works better for the assembly method (top plate up) of the author, while Reyes assembles the guitar face down on the Solera with 4 (or 5) mm thick quarter sawn peones made of spruce.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2018 6:59:18

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to Echi)

My copy of the 2003 plan says “Top to side Tentallones: Individual spruce blocks, 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/8” tapered and touching each other” and is drawn on the plans lower bout. The back linings are solid continuous at 1/8” thick. But I know the author says he uses solid linings for the top.

EDIT: I found this: http://www.foroflamenco.com/printable.asp?m=38567&mpage=
Scroll to the bottom for a pic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2018 16:13:12

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to JasonM)

I happen to have a 1977 Manuel Reyes blanca in the shop right now. Both, the soundboard glue blocks, and the back lining (solid) are cypress. Individual glue blocks (tentelones) are just a tad narrower than 1/2" and a little over 1/2" tall. Thickness is estimated at 5-6mm. The back lining is solid, about 1/2" tall with thickness estimate of 3-4mm.

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2018 0:16:05

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

Hey Peter, thanks for taking the time to take and post these pictures! Awesome! Seems like Reyes usually places his tentalones with no gap.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2018 1:31:53

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM
....seems like Reyes usually places his tentalones with no gap.

All four Reyes blancas I have seen at my shop had tentalones without gaps.

_____________________________

Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2018 4:19:59

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Lining/peones used by Reyes (in reply to JasonM)

Hi. Thanks for sharing the pictures.
May I ask you what is the average thickness of the top in this case?
Another precious info is about the top doming. 2 mm doming at the bridge and a straight upper transverse strut?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2018 6:17:28