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Escribano

Posts: 5846
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to BarkellWH

The slavers had their jobs made a lot easier as the larger tribes were already persecuting and enslaving lesser tribes on the west coast of Africa e.g. Ghana. When the slavers arrived, they offered easy money/trinkets to buy the slaves but this also prompted more violent enslavement. It always takes at least two.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 19:07:40

Piwin

Posts: 2164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Escribano

I think the first time I ran into the concept was back in the 90s. Part of the whole "plastic medicine men" thing. I could see what the problem was and why people were bothered by it. But I honestly couldn't see how cultural appropriation provided anything interesting as a framework to address that problem. Still don't. We have much better tools and more intelligible manners of addressing the disparities of power and status across ethnic groups.

Its fatal flaw is its very poor articulation (or complete lack thereof) of the relationship between an individual and a group. Even in your post, we have an individual saying "this is ours", not "this is mine" (even that latter statement would probably not reflect reality for most cases, but at least it'd be somewhat closer to it...). Every individual then becomes a flag-bearer for a group, which is a major step backwards if what we wanted was a world where everyone could be treated on equal terms as an individual. I think I've done my fair share of reading of the academic lore on this, and I'll admit that I've walked away rather disappointed. And as it stands right now, for whatever small insight that might have been gained in a niche academic circle, there are far more cases of people, including academics, using it not as a way to understand the interaction between populations, but as a way to justify a personal attack on an individual.

As one among an ever growing number of international mongrels, the concept would make my entire cultural identity dependent on the whims of the most xenophobic and reactionary factions of any of the cultures I belong to. Through the interplay of all the different factors used today to define "privilege", it's almost always possible to depict someone in a particular light. And if that happened simultaneously from all sides, I might in fact be denied any culture whatsoever. And tbh that's fine by me. It's nothing new really. I guess it's just that in the past the in-your-face xenophobes I had to deal with were always right-wing. Now I'm also having to deal with xenophobes on the left. Because both of them need culture to be a monolith for their ideas to work, I suppose it's no surprise that those for whom it's not a monolith at all would be the first casualties. Same ol' Same ol'.

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"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 20:43:14
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 15
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

What is "too silly" is the channeling of your inner Antonio Gramsci and your mis-application of his notion of Hegemony. The "concept" of "cultural appropriation" as being relative to power is your notion, presumably to be used (as is fashionable today) to leverage against those you accuse of "marginalizing" others. But you cannot have it both ways. If you are going to consider "cultural appropriation" a valid concept (which I do not), you must recognize that it exists whether it is practiced by a so-called "marginalized" group or the group in power. To take, or borrow, cultural activities such as music, art, dance, science, etc. from one group to another has been occurring since mankind discovered groups existed other than one's own. The power relationship is irrelevant. And we have all benefited from the exchange.

You may be surprised to learn that several Foro members are well-aware of the history of Al-Andalus and subsequent events after the Reconquista. We are cognizant of historical, political, and cultural developments, as well as the development of flamenco and the influence the Moors and Sephardic Jews have had in that development. No one is denying that the Andalusian gitanos have claimed it as their own (although that violates your statement above about saying "this is ours"). My point was that the gitanos owe a debt to other elements (Moors, Sephardic Jews) in the development of flamenco. And it renders them a bit hypocritical to accuse the woman who is the subject of this thread of "cultural appropriation.


Interesting that you default to Gramsci. For what it's worth, I think that Italian tradition of marxism is mostly just theology (I mean, have you SEEN Negri/Hardt and Virno's very nearly messianic confidence in the multitude?) I think the idea of cultural hegemony is theological because it assumes that capitalism is some kind of mystical ur-structure that is no longer rooted in material relations. Gramsci's reception in Andalucía (and particularly in Granada) is an interesting one, though. There are some great poets who were very influenced by his and Althusser's work in the 80s.

I mostly used the term "power" because I didn't think that this forum was the ideal space to have a philosophical discussion...but I'll bite. In order to adequately comprehend the manner in which a given group is positioned relative to its society, one must consider the dialectical relation between large-scale economic and ideological history and small-scale social history. The interaction between these two forms of anteriority is what causes imbalances in resource accumulation, social capital, or "power." Of course cultural appropriation exists no matter what its directionality (you are correct about that), but it only becomes a potential problem when a privileged group is taking from a marginalized group.

I don't have a problem with taking or borrowing, actually. On top of flamenco, I play a lot of blues. But when one is operating from the top end of an imbalance, one must find a way to make sure that the coding one is taking (whether musical, visual, or linguistic) is in some way revivifying and promoting the original culture in a new context. That's a pretty low bar to clear.

I think the point that I was trying to make about gitanos and flamenco might have gotten lost in translation. I wasn't questioning your knowledge so much as observing that a) the gitanos were not in a position of power when they borrowed elements of música andalusí and b) it's kind of weird to accuse the gitanos of appropriating from peoples who weren't even present during flamenco's nascence and development. There are no repercussions for appropriation when the peoples from whom one is borrowing are so absent that there is no conceivable possibility of them benefiting from having their musical traditions all to themselves. I should add that despite all of that, there are countless nods to both Jews and Muslims in the letras, as I'm sure you're aware. I feel like much of the flamenco ethos in Granada has to do with this perceived connection to Muslim and Sephardic Jewish music.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's right to accuse Rosalía of cultural appropriation, since it's apparent that she's very interested in working through the potential problems of her engagement with flamenco. It seems like she's actively questioning what it means to be "Spanish," and her mode of inquiry is to place different regional/cultural discourses that have been attributed to "Spain" together in a musical context, such that they generate a friction (and even a dissonance, at times).

Regarding your reply to El Burdo: Nobody is denying that most (if not all) groups have been perpetrators of violence at some point. What people are trying to tell you is that violence is situational, can be either horizontally or vertically oriented. If you think that there isn't a difference between tribal conflicts between the Pueblo and the Navajo and the vertical violence of colonialism, I don't know what to tell you (hard to argue about the Aztec Empire, though, admittedly). In any case, appropriation is situational insofar as violence is situational. I'm Jewish, which means that at various points my people have suffered violence and persecution, and I'm well aware of the fact that contemporary Christians have at times unscrupulously appropriated my culture (remember that fake Christian 'rabbi' who delivered a prayer at Mike Pence's rally after the Pittsburgh shootings?). At the same time, though, if I decide to take from, say, Black musical traditions in a way that doesn't acknowledge my debt, erases cultural difference and doesn't attempt to bolster or honor the culture with which I'm engaging, then I am similarly guilty of appropriation (though my appropriation will likely be less vindictive than that of the 'messianic rabbi,' because seriously, that's low). It's a question of sensitivity and ethics, is what I'm saying. Cultural exchange is great, so long as it's generous and respectful, and doesn't essentialize, caricature or commodify the 'other.'

Re: Mark2: That's not what I'm saying at all. Play all the falsetas you like! Maybe if you start selling records, it might become a bit of an issue, but even then, there are innumerable ways to give back to a community that aren't monetary. I'm also well aware that there have been plenty of great flamenco artists who aren't gitanos (hell, if it weren't for Silverio Franconetti, we'd have a lot less variety preserved in flamenco). It always strikes me, though, that so many people think in absolute terms and not in terms of tendency. Flamenco does not (and should not) belong absolutely to the gitanos, but it certainly tends in that direction.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 21:45:06
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 429
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

In the 1970s, in East Africa (primarily Uganda) sub-Saharan Blacks forced all of the East Indian communities out of their countries. The East Indians were astute businessmen and entrepreneurs, and the Blacks resented them, even though they were unable to run the businesses themselves.
. When you say 'unable' do you mean this?
"The banks--Bank of Baroda, Bank of India, and Standard Bank of South Africa--did not lend to many Africans. As such, the Africans could not participate in wholesale trade because the colonial government issued wholesale licenses only to traders with permanent buildings of stone or concrete. Very few African traders had such buildings. It was clear that the colonial wanted native Ugandans to remain hewers of wood and drawers of water" or do you mean what I think you mean, they were incapable? I'm talking about 'the Blacks'? Plenty to unpack there.

Racial/cultural hegemony and consequent privilege leads to a social structure wherein that privilege doesn't recognise imbalance unless it's contrary to its own interests. So, it's threatened when accused of appropriation. It helps that the skewed educational opportunities available to those of the privileged class, due to their having power, allow them to find any evidence they need to support their arguments. Against such hegemony, the marginalised (I'm not going to bother to enlarge on this, you get it or you don't) are entitled to their solidarity as they don't operate, on any reasonable analysis, as equals. We should recognise, not poo poo, those higher on the ownership levels of a culture than ourselves. The task is to be able to fairly and adequately demonstrate one's respect which was the point of my question.

Of course your last point is correct, but it doesn't change my assertion. Power will act as it wishes; Tiglath-Pileser III and Israel, Nebuchadnezzar and Judah. European transplants and Native Americans.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 21:53:47
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 15
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Escribano

quote:

The slavers had their jobs made a lot easier as the larger tribes were already persecuting and enslaving lesser tribes on the west coast of Africa e.g. Ghana. When the slavers arrived, they offered easy money/trinkets to buy the slaves but this also prompted more violent enslavement. It always takes at least two.


Sure, this is absolutely true, but I don't know how you can read about the Middle Passage and then equate one with the other.

Humans have always done terrible things to one another. But there are questions of scale, totality and systematization that must inform one's treatment of violence. On the topic of slavery, Orlando Patterson's "Slavery and Social Death: A Comparative Study" is a) a great read and b) elucidates the differences between cultures that engaged in slavery and slave cultures (he doesn't confine his discussion to the Americas and the Caribbean, too, which makes the book extra interesting).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 21:54:16
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 15
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

Can you tell me though, and I'm serious, how am I to acknowledge the society and the originators of delta/country blues from the 20s 30s etc. if it is unlikely to ever reach the 'earning money' end of things? I want to use that as a device with other traditional instrumentation but to use the concepts current in improvisatory modern jazz. I have already seen this done to great effect with New Orleans marching jazz. I stopped working on the project actually, for fear of such criticism and not having an answer. But, I LOVE that music - it speaks to me somehow. But now I wonder if that 'somehow' is really only a romantic nostalgia for someone else's pain; something similar having been said about our passion for the music of dispossessed Andalucía, from a sedentary position.


I've been struggling with this question about the Blues for quite some time (I play a lot of Hill Country stuff that stays on the I chord). For me, the key is lyrics. How do I write lyrics that acknowledge the fact that I am taking these melodies while at the same time pushes the song that I'm writing into something that reflects what I myself want to do with music? The other thing that one should always do is be transparent about one's influences. Shout out the artists who inspired you -- exposure seems to me to be a really basic way of giving back to the community. Most of us won't be in a position to provide a great deal of material compensation, realistically.

Regarding this idea of vicarious passion or pain: that's tough. What's the difference between empathy and nostalgia in the context of aesthetics? Adorno would probably say that it has something to do with kitsch. From the standpoint of creative practice, the question to ask would be as follows: how does one map personal hardship onto a music that is primarily animated by a cultural hardship that encompasses representations of the personal? All of this is to say that I have no answers, only a more specific set of questions.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 22:08:00
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 15
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Piwin

quote:

I think the first time I ran into the concept was back in the 90s. Part of the whole "plastic medicine men" thing. I could see what the problem was and why people were bothered by it. But I honestly couldn't see how cultural appropriation provided anything interesting as a framework to address that problem. Still don't. We have much better tools and more intelligible manners of addressing the disparities of power and status across ethnic groups.

Its fatal flaw is its very poor articulation (or complete lack thereof) of the relationship between an individual and a group. Even in your post, we have an individual saying "this is ours", not "this is mine" (even that latter statement would probably not reflect reality for most cases, but at least it'd be somewhat closer to it...). Every individual then becomes a flag-bearer for a group, which is a major step backwards if what we wanted was a world where everyone could be treated on equal terms as an individual. I think I've done my fair share of reading of the academic lore on this, and I'll admit that I've walked away rather disappointed. And as it stands right now, for whatever small insight that might have been gained in a niche academic circle, there are far more cases of people, including academics, using it not as a way to understand the interaction between populations, but as a way to justify a personal attack on an individual.


You know, I actually agree with what you're saying here in a lot of ways. My personal theoretical project involves the idea of excavating the socio-cultural histories of linguistic use that have generated standards for knowledge and conceptualization within cultural groups. The idea is to relativize everything in a circular manner: culture generates concepts relative to individuals and individuals generate concepts relative to culture (this is not original -- it's all in Wittgenstein). My goal is to extend this relation outward onto interactions between cultures in an attempt to theorize action on a civilizational scale. I am, as it happens, extremely terrified of climate change, so I think we need to start theorizing civilizational upheaval as a decision that binds individuals and cultures together while at the same time leaving them distinct -- there's no time for a revolution.

This is a bit of a tangent, but what I'm trying to say is that I agree that the conversation surrounding a concern like cultural appropriation is flawed or incomplete in some way. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a problem or that it doesn't exist.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 22:19:03
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 15
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

Racial/cultural hegemony and consequent privilege leads to a social structure wherein that privilege doesn't recognise imbalance unless it's contrary to its own interests. So, it's threatened when accused of appropriation. It helps that the skewed educational opportunities available to those of the privileged class, due to their having power, allow them to find any evidence they need to support their arguments. Against such hegemony, the marginalised (I'm not going to bother to enlarge on this, you get it or you don't) are entitled to their solidarity as they don't operate, on any reasonable analysis, as equals. We should recognise, not poo poo, those higher on the ownership levels of a culture than ourselves. The task is to be able to fairly and adequately demonstrate one's respect which was the point of my question.


This is really well-put.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 22:21:16
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2556
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

I think the first time I ran into the concept was back in the 90s. Part of the whole "plastic medicine men" thing. I could see what the problem was and why people were bothered by it. But I honestly couldn't see how cultural appropriation provided anything interesting as a framework to address that problem. Still don't. We have much better tools and more intelligible manners of addressing the disparities of power and status across ethnic groups.



Though not under the name “cultural appropriation” I first encountered the idea in the jazz scene of the 1950s on the east coast of the USA. Many in the hard bop genre (Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie) and some musicians regarded as even further out, like Thelonious Monk, consciously complicated their art, not only in creative exuberance, but also with the avowed objective of excluding white players. Relatively few white players studied as hard, or had the playing opportunities of the black avant-garde.

The hard bop players took their exclusive attitude from the experience of their immediate predecessors, the big band era of the late ‘20s and ‘30s. Jazz in New Orleans at the beginning of the 20th century was multi-racial. In the Kansas City, Chicago and New York scenes black influence predominated. Louis Armstrong was arguably the most influential and successful jazz musician of the 1920s. The big band era was predominantly white, with only a very few exceptions like Duke Ellington and Count Basie. But the first well known big band was Fletcher Henderson’s. Henderson’s band, though tremendously influential, had little commercial success outside of Harlem, the black uptown neighborhood of New York City.

White people quickly dominated the big band and small group swing scenes. Much of Benny Goodman’s early success was earned playing arrangements played by Henderson’s band, with literally the same written paper parts bought from Henderson. Henderson’s unemployed black musicians were condemned to be observers of Goodman’s spectacular financial success and the resultant prosperity of his white musicians.

The Henderson/Goodman story and many other parallels provided the next generation of black musicians with a clear example of cultural appropriation, with disastrous financial consequences.

All the same, my conscience is clear. I don’t think my amateur eclecticism has had even an infinitesimal cultural or financial impact.

I’m only a short way into reading Antonio and David Hurtado Torres’ “La Llave de la Musica Flamenca.” I will say it is the only documented, musically literate history of flamenco, authored by professional musicologists, that I have come across during more than fifty years of interest in the art. They clearly object to the idea that flamenco is a product almost exclusively of the gitanos. I have yet to review most the evidence they present, so I must reserve judgment. I did learn that shortly after the 1609 “expulsion” of the moriscos, the number of “gitanos” in the Spanish census doubled. Authoritative historians attribute this to moriscos assuming gitano identity to avoid deportation, and the attention of the Inquisition.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 22:28:18
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 429
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to tf10music

quote:

What's the difference between empathy and nostalgia in the context of aesthetics? Adorno would probably say that it has something to do with kitsch.


I didn't understand Adorno then and I'm not going to understand him now. On principle. But, the idea of a nostalgia for something that one has not experienced is just too French not to exist. It must do. It's right there on the fringes of my consciousness so I guess it must. Like a longing for the unknown.

If 'kitsch' means an essentially trivial and almost sarcastic representation of something 'real' then that's good; a disrespectful appropriation is kitsch, but a 'real' personal resonance with an art form is honourable. I think you're right - give the creators their due and express your feelings about the art.

Richard: Charlie Parker was 'be-bop'. Hard Bop was more Horace Silver, Tadd Dameron or Joe Henderson. Be-bop was revolutionary, Hard Bop was a development of Bop on steroids...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2018 23:42:13
 
Mark2

Posts: 1460
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to tf10music

When I first started studying flamenco in 1981, and began to understand how the culture was a vital part of the music, I questioned the idea of playing the music at all. I'm not gitano and not from Spain........I asked my mother about it, and she said the music belongs to those who can play it.

I really think that is true, and today for example you have good jazz artists from many countries. Flamenco is the same I think, in that artists from other countries will continue to study, and at some point be recognized by leading artists in flamenco. As far as giving back, I think most foreign students give a lot to the flamenco community, supporting artists with lessons and concert tickets, etc.

To suggest that an artist who takes something from flamenco owes something to the culture as a whole, that is a personal decision IMO, not something that can be dictated by others. Every artist knows their own history, and they know who they owe.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tf10music


Re: Mark2: That's not what I'm saying at all. Play all the falsetas you like! Maybe if you start selling records, it might become a bit of an issue, but even then, there are innumerable ways to give back to a community that aren't monetary. I'm also well aware that there have been plenty of great flamenco artists who aren't gitanos (hell, if it weren't for Silverio Franconetti, we'd have a lot less variety preserved in flamenco). It always strikes me, though, that so many people think in absolute terms and not in terms of tendency. Flamenco does not (and should not) belong absolutely to the gitanos, but it certainly tends in that direction.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 0:06:15
 
RobF

Posts: 220
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I asked my mother about it, and she said the music belongs to those who can play it.


I like how Leonard Cohen put it when he gave his acceptance speech for the 2011 Prince of Asturias Award:

“When I was packing in Los Angeles to come here, I had a sense of unease because I’ve always felt some ambiguity about an award for poetry. Poetry comes from a place that no one commands and no one conquers. So I feel somewhat like a charlatan to accept an award for an activity which I do not command. In other words, if I knew where the good songs came from I'd go there more often.”

- Leonard Cohen - Oviedo, Spain, October 21, 2011
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 0:30:14

Piwin

Posts: 2164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to tf10music

I think we just need to keep on repeating it's a Chinese hoax and it will magically go away.

More seriously, whatever meager optimism I had that we would rise up to the challenge was crushed this last month with the whole yellow vest thing. Nothing new in the idea that there is a discrepancy within the middle classes between aspirations and objective means to reach those aspirations. I suppose for a while there I was naive enough to think that a lot of people were actually ready to review those aspirations. Turns out, they're not. We're back to focusing on the objective means of reaching a set of aspirations that is growing ever faster. And as long as our aspirations are to "have whatever someone wealthier than me has", then we're screwed.

Dunno where Wittgenstein's going to get you in all of this. But hey, maybe you'll save us all! And if not, at least you'll have passed the time doing something you enjoy. ^^
My knowledge of Wittgenstein is embarrassingly shallow. Something like subjective/objective is a big mess and thoughts are social all the way down. That's pretty much all I got lol. That and he "threatened" Karl Popper with a poker, which for some reason I really like the thought of.

On the rest, I don't think I'm denying the root problems. I just think that the concept of cultural appropriation as it is defined today creates a flawed and possibly dangerous angle of approach. As I see it, there are a lot of factors that are just lumped together within that concept, factors that we really need to be able to disassociate.
As far as the "danger" is concerned, well, El Burdo's point about "ownership levels of a culture" and "demonstrating one's respect" to those higher than us on that scale is a good example of why I think this is profoundly dangerous to an individual like myself. It's exactly what I was saying about becoming dependent to the whims of the most xenophobic and reactionary factions within a culture. Either you're condemning multicultural individuals to become essentially zombies who are not allowed any kind of cultural innovation except otherwise accepted by the "pure" owners of the culture (see how close we're getting to full-out racist territory...) or you have to amend your understanding of cultural appropriation in a way where I have the "right" to tell those "higher on the scale" to go fu** themselves if necessary, regardless of any considerations of power across populations. The irony is that if I were into that stuff I could say that this view is necessarily one of privilege, i.e. of a person who has the privilege of some "safe space", safe culture that he can fall back on and not be accused of appropriating anything. Not all of us have that. I'm inherently diverse in my cultural affiliations. In every single one, there are people "higher on the scale", people who, according to this model, I should obey and show deference to. So if they all agreed at the same time that what I am, how I live, is not acceptable to their understanding of their culture, then they could literally deny me the right to exist. So yeah, not a huge fan of that idea...

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 0:48:18
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2556
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to El Burdo

iit
quote:

Original El Butdo

Richard: Charlie Parker was 'be-bop'. Hard Bop was more Horace Silver, Tadd Dameron or Joe Henderson. Be-bop was revolutionary, Hard Bop was a development of Bop on steroids...


Yes, you’re right. It was a long time ago when I subscibed to both Downbeat and Metronome, hung out at Waxie Maxie’s record shop on 7th street in Washington DC, and listened to Willis Conover before he went on Voice of America.

Come to think of it, I was inspired by Conover’s theme music to write up an arrangement of “Early Autumn” for my nine-piece band. It didn’t get played much— not good slow dance music for high school kids, but we liked to play it.

The be-boppers achieved one of their objectives with me: I was never any good at it. I copped a few pieces off records, learned a couple of Diz’s solos, but I didn’t think my own stuff was any good, even if I sat down and figured it out in advance. And to me it was an intellectual exercise that didn’t inspire me to really work hard.

Some time in the late 1980s my girlfriend and I were eating at a restaurant in San Francisco. A man was playing alto sax, accompanied by piano and drums. After a while I started to chuckle a little. “What’s funny?”asked my companion.

“Sax player is doing some Charlie Parker licks. Once it was revolutionary, now it’s elevator music.”

“Who’s Charlie Parker?” She’s a sophisticated woman, more literary than musical, but too young to have any idea of the Bop era. I tried to explain, no doubt lamely. Since it was pre-Youtube I thought of playing a few recordings, but realized that the only ones I had were vinyl and the turntable hadn’t been set up since I moved to California.

“So how is the guy unique who’s playing now?”.

“That’s just the point. He’s like hundreds of other guys all playing the same way.” And he was white.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 1:23:54
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2795
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to tf10music

quote:

On the topic of slavery, Orlando Patterson's "Slavery and Social Death: A Comparative Study" is a) a great read and b) elucidates the differences between cultures that engaged in slavery and slave cultures (he doesn't confine his discussion to the Americas and the Caribbean, too, which makes the book extra interesting).


The best work I have read on the Atlantic slave trade is "The Slave Trade," by the British historian Hugh Thomas. Thomas goes into great detail on both the slavers from Europe and America and the flourishing slave markets run by, and in many cases greatly enriching, the African slave traders operating in Ghana/Dahomey and the West Coast of Africa. Hugh Thomas primarily specialized in Spain and Latin American history, and his work entitled "The Spanish Civil War" is the best history of that conflict I have read. Highly recommended.

For a take on slavery that is little mentioned in the West, I highly recommend "Islam's Black Slaves," by Ronald Segal. The first slaves were brought to Europe by the Portuguese in the 15th century. Slavery in the Arab Muslim world had existed for eight centuries before the Portuguese first brought slaves to Europe. From the seventh century Arab slavers operated along the east coast and the interior of Africa, again, dealing with the African slave traders themselves. And the Muslim slavers operated up until recent times. Saudi Arabia outlawed slavery only in 1962, and slavery is still practiced in Mauritania and other enclaves in African Muslim states.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 2:19:46
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2556
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to BarkellWH

African slaves were numerous in Spain as far back as the early middle ages.

The Hurtado Torres brothers write that the oldest flamenco palo clearly recorded in historical writings and musical notation is the fandango. They document its introduction into Spain from Africa at least as early as the beginning of the 17th century, when 10% of the population of Sevilla was African by birth or descent.

So the non-flamenco verdiales of the modern day rural pandas of the province of Malaga are musically descended from Africa, as are the numerous fandangos de Huelva, malagueñas, tarantas, granadinas and the various fandangos naturales and personales, which began to be derived from fandangos in the 19th and early 20th century by the flamencos. Even Ramon Montoya’s Rondeña and its latter day followers are descended from Africa.

People point out that Antonio Chacon, the great originator of versions of granadinas, media granadina, and malagueñas, was not gitano by birth. But to be fair, he was a payo orphan raised by a gitano shoemaker in the Barrio Santiago of Jerez.

Another famous and influential non-gitano was Silverio Franconetti, born in 1831 (the same year as my great-grandfather). His father was born in Rome, his mother was from Alcala’ de Guadaira. He grew up in Moron de la Frontera, and hung out there among the blacksmith shops listening to the songs sung as the men worked at the forges. Of course blacksmithing was a common profession among gitanos. Silverio spent eight years in Latin America, working at times as a tailor or a soldier. In his time there as a picador he would perhaps have come in contact with gitano toreros.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 2:53:27
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2795
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Of course blacksmithing was a common profession among gitanos.


And not just in the past. Santiago Donday, a gitano cantaor who died in 2004, was a blacksmith. There is a very good CD featuring Santiago Donday, with Paco Cepero accompanying, entitled "Morrongo." Donday's voice was not what it once was, but it is worth it just to hear Paco Cepero accompanying.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 14:10:29
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1761
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
There is a very good CD featuring Santiago Donday, with Paco Cepero accompanying, entitled "Morrongo."

Ooolllleeeeeeeeee Bill!!! That's your best post ever

_____________________________

Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 14:15:56
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Dudnote

worthwhile listening to these two videos on the artist and interpretation/ input into the album.




and here from the artist directly.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 15:19:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11035
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to tf10music

Not responding to any individual here, however, the “cultural appropriation” some PC nonsense term for “ripping off” something from possibly a traditional music that “belongs” or was created by some some group of people. The other kind of “ripping off” is the same thing, it’s still just this and that out right robbed from other creators and making it one’s own. If you understand gypsies in general it’s all about that. And then others do the same to them. It is what it is, I for one prefer talking about specifics rather than generalizations because specific situations show contradictions to many generalizations.

Anyway, this Rosalia is not even capable of a decent “rip off”, she hasn’t the ability. The reason for the “cultural appropriation” is more like they needed a more serious disapproval of her than simply “she sucks”. It’s almost exactly like your Ottmar Leibert phenomenon, where a very low level artist hits the big time and it’s FREAKING ANNOYING that uninformed masses don’t see the difference. That is all.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 19:12:12
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 429
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Piwin

quote:

In every single one, there are people "higher on the scale", people who, according to this model, I should obey and show deference to.

I'm not saying that. Rather than 'obey' how about 'act in accordance with the values of' - instead of 'defer', how about 'respect'?
There are no rules here to follow, so we have to act with integrity and tolerance. All good PC words, but I mean we should have a thought through perspective, and we are able to recognise others' prejudices and defend ourselves against them etc. No exploitation for opportunistic ends.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2018 23:08:00
 
RobF

 

Posts: 220
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 16 2018 0:27:20
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2018 0:23:12
 
RobF

Posts: 220
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to RobF

Previous post deleted (by me) because it didn’t bring anything positive into the discussion.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2018 0:28:26
 
Leñador

Posts: 5225
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Escribano

quote:

Anyway, this Rosalia is not even capable of a decent “rip off”, she hasn’t the ability. The reason for the “cultural appropriation” is more like they needed a more serious disapproval of her than simply “she sucks”. It’s almost exactly like your Ottmar Leibert phenomenon, where a very low level artist hits the big time and it’s FREAKING ANNOYING that uninformed masses don’t see the difference. That is all.

Yup, she sucks lol
It’s like she took a year or two of cante lessons and then made a career of it.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2018 2:14:08

Piwin

 

Posts: 2164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 16 2018 17:23:01
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2018 3:07:30
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1761
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
a very low level artist hits the big time and it’s FREAKING ANNOYING that uninformed masses don’t see the difference. That is all.

Honestly, some of flamenco's "big releases" of established greats in recent years have not had me hitting that replay button too often. The opening track of Mercé's last effort - what the . Potito's Fuente del Amor - !! Emerging artists seem under pressure to conform too - and you wonder "why?". Maria Terremoto's two and a half pop tracks on an otherwise excellent album (that's getting replayed plenty) have me scrambling frantically for the forward button - especially once the softly softly lei-la-lei backing singers pitch in

It's FREAKING ANNOYING to see both established and emerging greats of flamenco releasing such modern recycled drivel - lei-lei-lei. I don't get it - aieeee. I guess it's all about radio play ah-yiiiii - but frankly

IMHO - it's refreshing to see someone coming up with something different in the realm of pop-flamenco. Or hold on - pop-flamenco also now has its traditions set in stone, it's own rules and you can't break the formula (re-enter soft backing singers and prepare to ).

All this makes me wonder.... what exactly is holding up Rancapino Chico with his debut album? I hope they don't insist on screwing that one up too!!! I guess we wait to see if he can resist the pressure - but at least his choice of album title gives some hope.

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Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 17 2018 16:04:14
 
JasonM

Posts: 874
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

All this makes me wonder.... what exactly is holding up Rancapino Chico with his debut album?


I saw on Facebook that the release date will be on le/le/Ayyai, or le/leh/ayai ! Exciting news!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2018 0:22:04
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1761
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM
I saw on Facebook that the release date will be on le/le/Ayyai, or le/leh/ayai ! Exciting news!!

You should record that and sell it to elevator compan-ai-ai-ais.

_____________________________

Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2018 5:43:04
 
JasonM

Posts: 874
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rosalía “El Mal Querer” (in reply to Dudnote

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2018 15:50:48
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