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Solea entirely 7th fret up   You are logged in as Guest
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mrstwinkle

 

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Solea entirely 7th fret up 

Saw a solea played the other day -entirely- 7th fret up - mostly in 7 to 11 area. Appeals to me sound-wise so wondering if any good youtube lessons out there to get me going on this? I could probably work it out from first principles but if there are any resources out there, would be useful.....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2018 16:14:08
 
henrym3483

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

theres a few solea falsetas by gerardo nunez up that far the fretboard, as far as i remember.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2018 16:56:33
 
mrstwinkle

 

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to henrym3483

Would be useful, but I'm at a much more basic level even than that. Recreation of the dozen or so basic compas patterns you'd learn early on, but transposed up the neck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2018 17:50:16
 
Piwin

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=17848&mpage=2&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=chords

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2018 20:35:00
 
mrstwinkle

 

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Piwin

Useful resource that
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2018 21:00:33
 
Dudnote

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

Do you mean with capo at 7 or without the capo?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2018 22:10:38
 
mrstwinkle

 

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Dudnote

No capo. The guy dong it (Antonio Moya) )seemed to use very few bar chords of any sort, maybe a few mini bars on 2nd 3rd string now and again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2018 23:08:50
 
rombsix

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From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

No capo. The guy dong it (Antonio Moya) )seemed to use very few bar chords of any sort, maybe a few mini bars on 2nd 3rd string now and again.


Can you post the video?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2018 0:23:12
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrstwinkle

Saw a solea played the other day -entirely- 7th fret up - mostly in 7 to 11 area. Appeals to me sound-wise so wondering if any good youtube lessons out there to get me going on this? I could probably work it out from first principles but if there are any resources out there, would be useful.....


7 por medio is the concept. Basically playing the same stuff you would play in A , but without the capo at 7th position, allowing for interesting voicings against open strings and such. Same concept for C# or D# keys most of the time (4 por medio or 6 por medio respectively is the flamenco thought process).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2018 2:04:25
 
mrstwinkle

 

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to rombsix

Sadly no. I don't generally record concerts, or at most just a few mins.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2018 6:24:31
 
mrstwinkle

 

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Ricardo

Yeah, sounds like it.

I barely know my CAGED theory.


So just moodling round with chord shapes.... This is not the finished product or a compas, just thinking out loud.

Suggest variations?

Sound quality very tinny I"m afraid - cheap phone.

https://youtu.be/EC4pTlrIWno
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2018 14:45:51
 
Dudnote

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrstwinkle
Suggest variations?

Try some compas!!

A very simple llamada type thing is to hold an E power chord (079900) and use 2nd finger to toggle between F and E on the A string. Hit that baby with you finest rajeo and tap that foot with style!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2018 17:27:28
 
rombsix

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

Hit that baby with you finest rajeo and tap that foot with style!




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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2018 19:26:37
 
Dudnote

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrstwinkle
Suggest variations?

Here's a few basic ideas. Notice, I changed the first F to F#, I'm pretty sure there's an early Manolo Sanlucar falseta out there that does the same thing (opening falseta for the solea on El Mundo y Forma Flamenco 2 or 3). Hope it's useful for you.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2018 20:51:24
 
mrstwinkle

 

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Dudnote

Oh yeah. Like that. Manolo Sanlucar is my new no1 guitar obsession too.

I'd got a basic solea together this morning before reading this, for the Am using a little buleria riff starting on 9 on 3rd, 8 on 4th open 5th. Just getting the muscle memory down on the basic patterns now, but it is recognisably a basic-solea with patterns to bridge the main E-A-C-G changes. Yours opens it up a bit as what I'd come up with was lower string heavy so 80 percent polga with just a few arpeggios.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2018 9:25:53
 
Dudnote

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrstwinkle
Oh yeah. Like that.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2018 9:30:19
 
mark indigo

 

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From: UK

RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

I changed the first F to F#, I'm pretty sure there's an early Manolo Sanlucar falseta out there that does the same thing


first falseta on PDL Fabulosa Guitarra solea starts the same way - E F# G# etc.

Several falsetas on that one are played at VII position

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2018 19:27:59
 
Dudnote

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrstwinkle
Oh yeah. Like that. Manolo Sanlucar is my new no1 guitar obsession too.

Seems like my fuzzy memory was leading us both up the garden path. I thought the F# was in the 3rd and 4th compas of Solea Pasito A Paso -but no, it uses a more standard F.

But there is an interesting use of F# in Nino Miguel's En El Punto Nicoba (3:32), where he does some kind of modulation with a B7 chord. Perhaps this belongs to another thread, but I'd be curious to know more about where a B7 in solea is coming from. Is there any roots in cante or is this some kind of modulation that was introduced by soloists? And who did it first?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2018 19:39:46
 
Dudnote

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo
first falseta on PDL Fabulosa Guitarra solea starts the same way - E F# G#

Ah yes, exactly! Thanks Mark! I guess that was exactly the one I was thinking of. It's a standard solea dabling with major scale sort of run. It can be used when moving from E7 to Am when acompanying cante. But for some reason I thought there were similar solea dabling with minor scale runs of E F# G out there - but can't think of any examples right now. And that use of F# is quite different from NM's B7 - which I'm wonderring if that's more a solea dabling with alegrias thing - a temporary modulation to E minor perhaps?? Edit: but I'm pretty sure it's not that either.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2018 19:57:42
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

Is there any roots in cante or is this some kind of modulation that was introduced by soloists?


Precisely.... it appears in cantes without guitar first of all, such as Martinete, tonas, etc. It is most obvious when guitarists actually play the dominant chord that is implied, in “buleria corta”. That includes accompaniment por medio or por Arriba, or any modern equivalent (for example in C# buleria the guitar plays a G#7 when singer sings the D# pitch of buleria corta), and both tempos of fast buleria or Solea por buleria depending. As Norman pointed out, it took a while before buleria corta was always given the dominant chord as old players used to ignore it and let a standard F chord clash against the sung F#. He also shows examples of it used in siguiriyas by Pastora and others. I would say that by Moraito generation it was standard, and one can notice that rhythmically, the dominant chord is given later than other tonos (on 12 instead of 10 generally).

Extracting the accompaniment device and using it for falsetas is a no brainer.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2018 21:50:09
 
Dudnote

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Ricardo

Many thanks Ricardo. That's really interesting!! Curious how that move seems familiar por medio (bluerias corta, seguiriyias), but much less so por ariba (for solea).

I'm still unclear if temporary modulations (in solea) from por arriba to Mi menor be breaking or endorsing traditions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2018 13:54:31
 
mark indigo

 

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From: UK

RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

It's a standard solea dabling with major scale sort of run.


you can think of it as E major, or as A melodic minor... In this particular context (first falseta on PDL Fabulosa Guitarra solea) it's very brief, followed right after by an F natural, so I see it as just a sort of sharpened passing note to where he's going. He does that a few times in different places with different notes (eg. C# instead of C natural) and they seem more like melodic tweaks than actual modulation or use of a different scale.

I don't know if that makes any sense theoretically or if it stands up to rigorous academic analysis (!) but that's my feeling about it based on learning it and playing it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2018 19:30:54
 
Dudnote

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo
or as A melodic minor...

Thanks Mark. Yeah, I'm with you on this one, makes a lot more sense flirting with sharpened nodes in a go between between melodic and standard minor than thinking of any modulation to a major scale.

Perhaps we can call it melodic phyrigian

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2018 20:18:45
 
mark indigo

 

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From: UK

RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

perhaps we can call it melodic phyrigian


it's sure phrygian something! ....no real need to call it anything?

on the other hand at the beginning of the tremolo falseta in that soleá (not VII pos, so didn't think of it before) he again uses E, F#, G#, but this time it is going direct to an A minor chord, so that IS melodic minor.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2018 18:53:15
 
Ricardo

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RE: Solea entirely 7th fret up (in reply to mrstwinkle

Although using part of a scale might capture the “vibe” depending on the note choices, it’s probably better not to over think the analysis regarding traditional flamenco. In most cases, before the 80’s, old style flamenco is not deliberately using some special scale such as melodic minor or any modes, even in cases of straight runs. Sure you might find a single 7 note scale, but even still you will notice things like a natural note in one octave, and as it passes through the next octave, a sharp note, or both notes.

In melodic phrases when you encounter accidentals in old flamenco, it’s not a key change rather it’s some implied harmonic change. For example the A-G#-A-G-F#-G-F-E-F-E-D#-E type chromatic are implying the Circle of 5th harmonic movement (E7-Am, D7-G, C7-F, B7b5-E). In other cases you have your typical cambio type things that occur in cante accompaniment (the Dominant change, or the relative major change etc). So something that has E-F#-G#-A....might not necessarily be “mode 5 of melodic minor”, you would need to hear specifically the other notes, namely the C natural and D natural to be sure. If you don’t hear those, then there is ambiguity and one can simply say it’s an E major chord, for example.

Another case is you might hear in Solea, the C# and F natural against a ringing E or E and B together, implying the vibe of mode 2 of melodic minor (D melodic minor), but again here you need to be sure about the other notes such as G natural. If it is not present, a G# might be implied and thus the “scale” could be seen as mode 5 of A harmonic MAJOR....and in many cases I notice this type of thing going on when more notes are at play, and I feel it’s a deliberate throwback to M. De Falla. Of course in modern recordings of flamenco guitar deliberate usage of “Jazz minor modes” and what not can be found often used.

In regards to the the question about modulating to the minor KEY from the phrygian, as we see more often in buleria and lighter forms, yes it has been done in the traditional rep. I discussed the specific example of Niño Ricardo Solea that does this:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=230677&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=solea%2Cminor&tmode=&smode=&s=#231093

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2018 12:23:17
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