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RE: Malaguena falseta?   You are logged in as Guest
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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2681
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Or the more technically advanced version (not surprising projects as more emotional as well)




Thanks for posting Ricardo. Fernando Terremoto was pretty emotional for me: not just because of his virtuosity. He reminds me so much of his father, not only in sound, but in looks as well.

On the Pena Hijo clip, Sabicas reminds me of the last time I heard him in person, in 1965. His un-amplified sound dominated a room holding 2000 people, complete with machine gun tremolo.

He was playing an Arcangel Fernandez blanca, one reason I bought mine, sight unseen, sound unheard--I did get Richard Brune's opinion before I forked over the money....

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2020 21:26:01
 
Piwin

Posts: 2434
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

I just wanted to point out that [I don't know what I am talking about this morning]...




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2020 7:56:40
 
Auda

 

Posts: 101
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

My hunch is that he was more likely influenced by the classical repertoire, where it's a fairly common technique.


Some info below.

Cheers


https://douglasniedt.com/Tech_Tip_Cascading_Harmonics.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2020 13:26:50
 
Piwin

Posts: 2434
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to Auda

Brilliant. Thanks!

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying the harp harmonic technique was common in the classical repertoire. In fact, I can't think of a single example where it is used. I meant just harmonics in general. I have an easier time imagining Sabicas taking inspiration from, say, Llobet and his Testament d'Amelia than from Chet Atkins. Though I guess they're not mutually exclusive either. God knows what Sabicas might have seen on late night television while in New York

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2020 14:23:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11363
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Artificial harmonics done to perfection. Mr Emmannuel learned it from Chet Atkins. I'm pretty sure Sabicas is influenced by Mr Atkins too


Atkins diet? Interesting. Ever heard of Segovia and the classical guitar? I heard they used octave harmonics too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2020 15:09:02
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Atkins diet? Interesting. Ever heard of Segovia and the classical guitar? I heard they used octave harmonics too.

Due to the fact that Sabicas lived in the states during his whole carreer you can be sure he was aware of what was played around him.
It may well be he was influenced by Mr Atkins when it comes to playing artificial harmonics.
However, what Sabicas played there sounds like a prototype of what Tommy Emmanuel is playing there. So my conclusion is it was the classical guitar.
But you never know. Like Piwin put it nicely

quote:

God knows what Sabicas might have seen on late night television while in New York


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2020 16:20:46
 
Auda

 

Posts: 101
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Due to the fact that Sabicas lived in the states during his whole carreer you can be sure he was aware of what was played around him.


I believe Sabicas came from Spain (to get away from Franco) in his 20's and moved first to somewhere in S. America prior to the States.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2020 18:20:04
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2893
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to Auda

quote:

I believe Sabicas came from Spain (to get away from Franco) in his 20's and moved first to somewhere in S. America prior to the States.


Sabicas lived for a time in Buenos Aires in the late 1930s, after which he moved to New York.

Although a gitano, Sabicas was not born in Andalucia. He was born in Pamplona, in northern Spain's Basque country. Aside from being a great flamenco guitarist, he had an interesting personal history.

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2020 21:14:06
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2681
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to BarkellWH

From the Wikipedia article on Carmen Amaya:

"In 1936, when the Spanish Civil War had just begun, Carmen Amaya and her troupe were on tour in Valladolid with Luisita Esteso's show. They crossed the border from Spain to Portugal and, after a short time arrived in Lisbon, they sailed for Buenos Aires on the ship Monte Pascoal, which took fifteen days to cross the Atlantic and put in at Brazil and Uruguay. She debuted in Buenos Aires, accompanied by Ramón Montoya and Sabicas at the Maravillas Theatre."

"During this stage of her life, she added to her artistic group several members of her family. She made films in Buenos Aires with Miguel de Molina and won the admiration of musicians Arturo Toscanini and Leopold Stokowski, who publicly praised her."

"The success of Carmen Amaya and her family exceeded all expectations. They planned to stay for only four weeks and, finally, they stayed there for nine months, since every time Carmen performed the theatre was filled and tickets were even sold two months in advance. A good example of the enormous popularity that the artist achieved in this South American country is the construction of the theatre that bears her name: el Teatro Amaya."

I believe this was the first time Sabicas left Spain. He had been performing in public since he was a child prodigy at age 8.

"In addition, it seems that during most of those years in America the bailaora maintained a personal relationship with Sabicas, who declared shortly before his death that he and Carmen had been dating for nine years, and that they had split up in Mexico."

Sabicas's brother Diego attributed the breakup with Amaya to her father and brother. According to Diego they feared that if Sabicas and Carmen married, Sabicas would be in charge of the money, as was notoriously the case with Pastora Pavon "La Niña de los Peines" after she married Pepe Pinto. Since Carmen made a lot of money and was the principal financial support of her family, this was an important consideration.

During his time in Mexico Sabicas married and fathered four children. In the early 1950s he moved to New York City. Two of his children still lived there when he passed away in 1990.

During the winter of 1961-62 I had been fortunate enough to meet Sabicas a few times at after hours juergas at the club Zambra, just south of Central Park. He was very friendly and congenial, not putting on airs as a famous and prosperous artist. A poker playing friend told me Sabicas played in the big games in town, and won.

Amaya's last performance in New York was at a large night club in Greenwich Village in 1962. My friend Blackie Acosta and I reseved a front row table. Sabicas and his entourage sat at the next table. None of the striking young blondes often seen with Sabicas was among them.

Carmen acknowledged Sabicas and blew him a kiss at the beginning of intermission

At intermission Blackie and I went backstage, meaning to strike up an acquaintance with some of the beautiful young gitanas in the troupe. We were wearing good suits and thinking well of ourselves. We didn't know that most of the troupe were Carmen's relatives. The girls would not make eye contact, the young men took out impressive switchblade knives to tend to their fingernails. Blackie and I went back to our table.

Carmen smiled at Sabicas while taking her bows at the end of the show, and appeared to make one bow for him.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2020 3:24:26
 
Auda

 

Posts: 101
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

During the winter of 1961-62 I had been fortunate enough to meet Sabicas a few times at after hours juergas at the club Zambra, just south of Central Park. He was very friendly and congenial, not putting on airs as a famous and prosperous artist. A poker playing friend told me Sabicas played in the big games in town, and won.

Amaya's last performance in New York was at a large night club in Greenwich Village in 1962. My friend Blackie Acosta and I reseved a front row table. Sabicas and his entourage sat at the next table. None of the striking young blondes often seen with Sabicas was among them.

Carmen acknowledged Sabicas and blew him a kiss at the beginning of intermission

At intermission Blackie and I went backstage, meaning to strike up an acquaintance with some of the beautiful young gitanas in the troupe. We were wearing good suits and thinking well of ourselves. We didn't know that most of the troupe were Carmen's relatives. The girls would not make eye contact, the young men took out impressive switchblade knives to tend to their fingernails. Blackie and I went back to our table.

Carmen smiled at Sabicas while taking her bows at the end of the show, and appeared to make one bow for him.

RNJ


Another great anecdote Richard! As I posted previously your experiences should be recorded for prosperity. I had been aware of the background you posted but figured Devilhand could do the research on it.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2020 14:42:27
 
kitarist

Posts: 692
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

They crossed the border from Spain to Portugal and, after a short time arrived in Lisbon, they sailed for Buenos Aires on the ship Monte Pascoal, which took fifteen days to cross the Atlantic and put in at Brazil and Uruguay.


Lovely story, Richard. This above made me dig into ocean liners again, last night.

My grandfather Kiril (Cyril) also sailed on the Hamburg South America line around that time - in 1937 or so, but on a different ship, to visit his older brother in La Plata. Speed of 12 knots, it took 28 days (!!) from Hamburg to Buenos Aires. The ship was the Asuncion, built in 1921, previously named Niederwald 2 and on the HAPAG (Hamburg America line between Europe and North America) route, but switched to the South American route (and company) and renamed Asuncion in 1937.

The Monte Pascoal was about 3 times larger, and newly built in 1930, had a speed of 14 knots, so it took about 19-20 days from Lisbon to Buenos Aires - though I am sure it touched in Brazil about a week before that. Here's a website I found to calculate travel times given speed and start and end ports: http://ports.com/sea-route/

Here's the Monte Pascoal (the two-stack ship) near the even larger and more luxurious three-stack Cap Arcona, in the port of Buenos Aires.




The Hamburg-South America line with all the stops looked like this:




With the two world wars, both HAPAG and Hamburg South America twice lost pretty much all their ships!

The Asuncion struck a mine off the coast of Norway and sank in May 1942. The Monte Pascoal was sunk once in 1944 by the US, then refloated, beached, then seized as a war prize by the UK, then finally sunk again near Norway in November 1946 (!)

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2020 18:43:42
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Mr. Jernigan, you witnessed a lot in flamenco scene. Keep your memories coming.

What I read in a book about Carmen Amaya by Mario Bois was Sabicas came 1936 to Buenos Aires. By the time Carmen Amaya was already there and made it big in Argentina giving sold out concerts. C. Amaya arrived in Buenos Aires in 1936 too, but a little bit earlier than Sabicas.

Sabicas and C. Amaya were then together in USA 1940-1945. According to Sabicas, a manager of a label offered him and Amaya 400$ each and for the record "La palabra de palmero" another 400$. Sabicas didn't want to make a record for this money. I wonder how much would 400$ during 40's be worth today? After his uncles persuaded him to make this record, he did it and it was fun he said in a radio interview.

Somehow this record "La palabra de palmero" is not included in Sabicas and C. Amaya discography.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 26 2020 12:07:33
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2681
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to devilhand

It says here

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com

that $400 in 1941 would be worth $6,956.65 now.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2020 7:39:58
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Malaguena falseta? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Today no artist is ready to make a record for around 7000$.

I'm pretty sure the label made thousands from that record back then.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2020 16:00:38
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