Several things I am curious about the guitar.

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Goldwinghai

Posts: 215
Joined: Mar. 17 2015
From: Virginia USA

Several things I am curious about th...

Has any guitar been lacquered/varnished on the inside? It seems to me the moisture absorbed into the wood mostly from the uncoated side. If so, that would cause uneven wood expansion, no? And what would be the effect on the tone of the guitar if the interior is coated as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2018 17:56:36

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

Some guitars (few really) are varnished on the inside as well.
The names which come to my mind are Fleta, Hernandez y Aguado and a couple of Japanese makers (I tried a Hiroshi Tamura varnished underneath the top).
Fleta always had problems with the high moisture levels of Barcelona and possibly this feature had the purpose to better seal the woods.
The consensus is that this didn’t sort the problem out.
Among the very reasons Segovia favoured Ramirez over Fleta is that the Ramirez shop was humidity controlled and that the Ramirez guitar was among the best for a tournée, given some features like the cedar top and the double sides.

According to a respected seller, the inside varnish makes the guitar harder to open up.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2018 22:13:49

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

Interesting concept....
I've always been told the end grain absorbs the most moisture and on a guitar the all the end grain would be sealed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2018 22:24:45

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

It’s true.
Also It’s to consider that no varnish ( and particularly shellac) can really seal the wood.
It’s among those little attempts the luthiers try in order to improve things here and there (and not always with a good reason behind): a good luthier once told me that he apply varnish to the inside of the back as this helps in “reflecting” the sound.:.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2018 5:28:46

sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Echi)

Sooo true. Here you can see what a Carrillo sounds like without varnish:

2:16

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2018 7:40:25

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

a good luthier once told me that he apply varnish to the inside of the back as this helps in “reflecting” the sound.

I have found that a couple of light coats of shellac don't hurt much on the inside until you get too much thickness.......then it starts effecting the sound to be rather cold. So the trick is to not put too much; just enough to keep the wood from expanding and contracting rapidly with weather change.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2018 9:07:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

Well I think humidity gets into your guitar and comes out all the time and nothing can be done about that. I always felt the varnish is needed to protect the wood from oils and sweat and cigarette smoke, manzanilla, blood, tears and getting splinters ... basically playimg wear.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2018 14:56:58

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

Varnishing the inside doesn't stop by the instrument from change when humidity changes. It's more anecdotal garbage.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2018 2:30:12

sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

quote:

Varnishing the inside doesn't stop by the instrument from change when humidity changes. It's more anecdotal garbage.

Varnish in the inside alters the instrument's reactivity to changes in different athmospheric condition making it less reactive but the bargain comes from the sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2018 13:15:29

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to estebanana)

When I worked in the boat yard we would seal plywood (marine grade) by encasing it in a thin layer of fiberglass/resin and then seal that with a couple coats of urethane paint over top that. The plywood would start to rot in 3-5 years only exposed to weather and then need to be replaced. Job security 😂. I’ve heard you can never completely stop wood from absorbing moisture but you can slow it down. Maybe coating the inside of the guitar helps but not enough to make a big difference.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2018 14:29:37

etta

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

Have had three guitars with interior finish. One of these guitars might have been finished inside to disguise some rough work. The other two were perfect in construction, a Hernandez y Aguado blanca, 1959, and a Michael Thames blanca, 1993. All three guitars were excellent in projection and tone but can't say that the inside finish was a factor. I do appreciate the nice workmanship and crisp appearance of a guitar finished inside. But, for sound, humidity issues....I cannot say.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2018 14:34:10

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to sartorius)

quote:

Varnish in the inside alters the instrument's reactivity to changes in different athmospheric condition making it less reactive but the bargain comes from the sound.

Absolutely true, as the finish prohibits some cracking in the wood from sudden humidity changes; not so much for the increase but the quick drying out that can cause cracking.

And I have found that very little shellac is necessary for its protection, this is why I don't feel it necessary to do a complete French Polish inside the guitar, as the finish can cause a more cold sound if more finish is applied. A few light coats keep the sound warmer.

So the idea is to keep the wood from cracking, and if you want to apply a complete French polish on the back braces, then that would be fine. I do this on occasion with a couple of light coats on the sides and back, and heavier coats on the back braces.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2018 14:52:59

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

BS

God do we have to endure the constant babbling brook of misinformation.

It's ok this topic has been covered over and over here and on every guitar forum and the consensus is that this is anecdotal. However since the Foro Flamenco operates under a separate set of laws of physics other than the current paradigm, I suppose any old fake news can be taken as fact.

Facts and consensus are meaningless here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 0:55:12

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

Is finish on the outside purely aesthetic?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 1:06:03

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Facts and consensus are meaningless here.

It's a scientific fact that wood releases water much slower when treated with a finish, and this is what guards against cracking; it's the slower release of humidity.

For example: Back yard wood decks weather better with wood treatment.

It's true that building guitars in higher humidity can cause cracking in lower humidity but this doesn't prove that finish won't help the process to slow down.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 7:50:09

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Is finish on the outside purely aesthetic?

Of course not. The outside finish incorporates the entire tone efficiency as well as offering protection for the wood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 7:55:00

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

Lennster,

Here's to the deal- finish keeps taco grease off the bear wood, and keeps beer spillage from soaking in an smelling like cheap skid row bar.

It also provides a modicum of damping to high partials- by cutting out some of that signal, high squawking stuff, the guitar can sound more 'calmed' down to our ear. And it can cut some high frequency information that is making the guitar sound overactive.

Finish is not enhancing the sound, but really in a nuanced way cutting through some frequency that we notice a lot as noise.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 9:43:35

sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

That's why shellac instruments, although being more fragile, have more tone efficiency than those sprayed with synthetic (?) varnish. Building conditions and the wood used matter a lot too of course.

Anyway it's always btter to open a bottle of wine that has been standing for a long time on the place where it's going to be drunk than coming back with the same bottle just bought at the wine shop. The same applies to the wood used in building guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 9:45:56

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

quote:

Has any guitar been lacquered/varnished on the inside?

I have a witches brew that I use on the inside. Mainly on the front but a bit on the back and sides. I seal over with a soft varnish that is super thin so penetrates well. Just one coat. I was trying to find a way of bolstering the front of the guitar as Flamenco's get a right dose of abuse in their lifetime. Anything to try and extend that. It's something that has been done with other instruments (violin/viola) with generally favourable comments. I'll have to wait and see the full outcome of this - but ten years down the line and going strong. There are obviously a range of views on this but I'm sticking with this for the moment.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 12:55:30

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

I need to stay away from here because people who don't build guitars spread the stupidest 'ideas'. But of course nothing ever stops those who do build guitars from spreading dumb ideas either.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 14:03:04

sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

People who don't build guitars but who do play them give the best advice to builders. That's why they listen to them (unless they are stubborn and/or narrow-minded).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 15:08:50

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

quote:

People who don't build guitars but who do play them give the best advice to builders. That's why they listen to them (unless they are stubborn and/or narrow-minded).

Yeah but that’s not direct building advice it’s just “I do like this about it” or “I don’t like that about it.” Not, “Top braces feel a bit stiff, sand those down a mm or two next time.”

quote:

Here's to the deal- finish keeps taco grease off the bear wood, and keeps beer spillage from soaking in an smelling like cheap skid row bar.

Ahah! Now you’re speaking my language.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 15:15:05

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Here's to the deal- finish keeps taco grease off the bear wood, and keeps beer spillage from soaking in an smelling like cheap skid row bar.

The perfect image to accompany Kris Kristofferson's song "Sunday Morning Coming Down"--taco grease and stale beer on a guitar, with the guitarist wearing the same shirt for the fifth day in a row, waiting for the first of the skid row bars to open.

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 17:51:31

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to etta)

quote:

Have had three guitars with interior finish. One of these guitars might have been finished inside to disguise some rough work. The other two were perfect in construction, a Hernandez y Aguado blanca, 1959, and a Michael Thames blanca, 1993.

Your mention, cited above, of having owned a 1959 Hernandez y Aguado blanca jogged my memory of your posting a few years ago that in 1960 you had bought a 1959 Hernandez y Aguado directly from Carlos Montoya that you later sold and regretted doing so. I recall you were trying to locate it to buy it back. Did you have any luck in locating it?

Just out of interest, did you approach Carlos Montoya about buying the guitar or was he offering it for sale?

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2018 20:14:29

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

People who don't make guitars shouldn't give advice to those who do. The best guitarists explain what they need for different kinds of music and describe what attributes they need in a guitar. Unless you play at a master musicians level your advice is mostly redundant of what master players have already told makers. If you don't play at a master guitarists level your input is something we've already heard. It's not useful. Please mind your own place.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2018 5:01:07

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

quote:

People who don't make guitars shouldn't give advice to those who do. The best guitarists explain what they need for different kinds of music and describe what attributes they need in a guitar. Unless you play at a master musicians level your advice is mostly redundant of what master players have already told makers. If you don't play at a master guitarists level your input is something we've already heard. It's not useful. Please mind your own place.

Eso.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2018 5:24:16

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

People who don't make guitars shouldn't give advice to those who do.

People who do make guitars shouldn't give advice to those who don't.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2018 7:57:22

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

Go to the Conde shop and start giving everyone advice and see how fast they escort you out the door.

Not trying to be a dick here, but in reality most anecdotal information passed on by non builders isn't good for guitar making. It sets up unrealistic talking points.

Once a lute player told me the pips on the end of the lutes pegs made a difference in the sound of the lute. Right? The tiny ornaments at the tip of the peg grip. If I had listened to that seriously I would be nowhere.

Most of the time makers are polite and they let 95% of the nonsense pass by but at a certain point it becomes combersome and disrespectful. You want free truthful dispassionate advice about guitars? Fine I'm game. But don't tell makers their business and get uppity about it.

Free dispassionate advice you get it here. If you don't like it don't countermand it just because you have some anecdotal junk to peddle.

If Ricardo says a 10 mm saddle is too high I listen and say ok. I don't try to tell him to change his right hand. Or if Jason says this treble side needs more work it's not robust enough, I work on it. Because they earned the right to propose criticism. Most amateurs who venture into giving critical review to guitar makers don't even have good tone yet. Jason and David Serva said to me several times, you have good tone and a flamenco sound. Most advice givers don't have good tone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2018 8:20:48

Piwin

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Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to estebanana)

I once went to the local luthier's workshop because my guitar had started seriously buzzing and I just couldn't figure out why.
Turns out, I'd been playing without a saddle (must've slipped off while I was changing strings). Muy flamenco. Ahem.
So my advice to people who make guitars is to...
Nope.
I don't have any advice.
I didn't even notice the f*cking saddle was missing...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2018 9:12:24

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Several things I am curious abou... (in reply to Goldwinghai)

My professional advice on that is:

Stop drinking four vodka orange juices for breakfast and the guitar will not buzz....*hic*

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2018 10:31:56