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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2502
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos 

Further to the relationship of Argentine Tango and flamenco tangos, here are some of their ancestors:

Habanera cubana:

La Paloma by the Basque Sebastian Yradier, written after he visited Cuba in 1861. This is one of the most popular songs of the last 200 years. The arrangement is by the 19th century Catalan "classical" guitarist, Francisco Tarrega. Pepe Romero dedicates the piece to his father, Celedonio. Pepe told me it was one of his father's favorite pieces, the last one he played before he passed away.



An equally famous habanera is the aria in Bizet's opera "Carmen."

Tango in Spain, 19th century:

The pianist Isaac Albeniz included a tango in his suite "España" published in 1890. The habanera bass line is obvious. It was transcribed for guitar by Tarrega's student Miguel Llobet, and has been part of the 'classical" repertoire ever since.

The piece differs from the more extroverted and rhythmically square tangos americanos of the zarzuela musical theater.

Pepe Romero again, with his brother Celin:



Milonga Argentina:

"Los Ejes de mi Carreta" by the great Héctor Roberto Chavero, "Atahualpa Yupanqui":



The bass line of the milonga argentina is almost the same as the habanera, but it is more subtly incorporated in Atahualpa's playing than the bass in Pepe's "La Paloma." or Albeniz's "Tango in D."

About the time this came out in 1969 Atahualpa was popular among Eddie Freeman's flamenco students. There are a few manuscript transcriptions of solo pieces like "Viene Clareando"' "Campo Abierto," and "Zamba de Mi Pago" still in my sheet music cabinet.

In the 1980s I worked in France a fair amount, got to know some Argentinian expats. One night they said, "Let's go hear Atahualpa." Atahualpa and many of my friends left Argentina when "Los Gorilas," the military junta, came to power.

In a good sized bar in the Latin Quarter Atahualpa held the floor for an hour and 3/4. While he performed you could have heard a pin drop. After the gig we went to a friend's good sized apartment. Guitars and wine were broken out. To my astonishment, Atahualpa turned up and jammed. Whew!

Tango Argentino:

"El Choclo" (1903) remains popular. I can't vouch for the authenticity of Roland Dyens' tango style, but he's one of the few non-Brazilians who can really play samba.



Milonga flamenca:

Ramon Montoya and the saxophonist Fernando Vilches. This is a bit different. I had heard about this, but never actually heard it until I ran onto it on Youtube the other day. The habanera/milonga bass line is also evident here.



But by 1975 the habanera bass line had disappeared from the milonga flamenca:

Paco Peña:



Tientos y Tangos:

El Lebrijano and Paco Cepero. In Tientos the dotted rhythm of the tango/habanera/milonga is moved from the first beat of the compas to the second. The characteristic swing of the compas is very clear in Cepero's accompaniment. The diatonic scale of the tango has given way to the andaluz scale por medio. The transition from tientos to tangos (also por medio) comes fairly early here at about 3:41. In many of La Niña de Los Peines' tientos she closes with tanguillos in A-major, as does Montoya in my previous post.



RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2018 22:47:23
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Tango in Spain, 19th century:

The pianist Isaac Albeniz included a tango in his suite "España" published in 1890. The habanera bass line is obvious. It was transcribed for guitar by Tarrega's student Miguel Llobet, and has been part of the 'classical" repertoire ever since.

The piece differs from the more extroverted and rhythmically square tangos americanos of the zarzuela musical theater.



Or from Argentine tangos from the 1920s on.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Milonga Argentina:

"Los Ejes de mi Carreta" by the great Héctor Roberto Chavero, "Atahualpa Yupanqui":


The bass line of the milonga argentina is almost the same as the habanera, but it is more subtly incorporated in Atahualpa's playing than the bass in Pepe's "La Paloma." or Albeniz's "Tango in D."



This is just one of several kinds of milongas - it most closely resembles the milonga campera (the slow 3-3-2 form that Piazzolla likes) but you can also hear a bit of the old school habanera bits.

The other major type of argentine milonga is the city milonga, which sprung into existence as a musical form around 1930. It is like a sped-up habanera rhythmic pattern of dotted-eighth, sixteenth, eighth, eighth (but not the habanera bass progression pattern so it is different in feel). Another flavour of it is a more mid-tempo (i.e. a bit slower than city milonga) version where you don't hear the sixteenth at all; just the other three.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Tango Argentino:

"El Choclo" (1903) remains popular. I can't vouch for the authenticity of Roland Dyens' tango style, but he's one of the few non-Brazilians who can really play samba.



He is mostly playing it old school, the pre-1920s style of tango - the one that got frozen stylistically with classical guitarists (and that resembles the habanera).

Modern (1920s+) tangos are straight - and several types of them, but all are straight, no dots, so away from the habanera.



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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2018 23:34:44
 
rombsix

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From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Thanks for all the info, y'all. :)

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 0:50:46
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2502
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist


Modern (1920s+) tangos are straight - and several types of them, but all are straight, no dots, so away from the habanera.



When I put "milonga dance" in the Youtube search box, I get a long list of performances labeled "tango," but when I glance at the performances themselves, people are said to be dancing milonga. The music often (always?) features the habanera bass. The dances seem to have some characteristic moves in common. So I suppose, among tango experts they distinguish tango from milonga?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 3:43:22
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

1. People are often not consistent in labelling things. Besides that:

2. Tango = suite of three musical forms: tango, milonga, and vals.

3. Milonga means (a) the social gathering of people dancing Tango (i.e. dancing tango, milonga and vals) - "When is the next milonga? - next Tuesday at 11pm"; (b) any flavour of the musical form milonga.


So a tango festival consists of several nights of milongas at which people dance tangos, milongas and valses. So it is confusing..

I'll try to come up with nice youtube examples of what I mean by different musical forms and their flavours, tomorrow.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 4:37:34
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2502
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to kitarist

Thanks, Konstantin.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 4:40:50
 
Piwin

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RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to kitarist

Not to mention that I've seen gatherings called "milonga" essentially devolve into salsa/club-dancing towards the end. They still called it a milonga though. Head-scratcher.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 4:41:57
 
joselito_fletan

 

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RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

I have always wondered what came first, the musical term, or the colloquial term. Milonga in my part of Spain is also used to describe liars (No me cuentas mas milongas) and can define a heated discussion or an escalation of it ( Se armo la milonga anoche)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 6:10:00
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Further to the relationship of Argentine Tango and flamenco tangos, here are some of their ancestors:

Habanera cubana:

La Paloma by the Basque Sebastian Yradier, written after he visited Cuba in 1861. This is one of the most popular songs of the last 200 years [...]

An equally famous habanera is the aria in Bizet's opera "Carmen."



The earliest identified "contradanza habanera" is "La Pimienta", an anonymous song published in an 1836 collection.

Another of Yradier's compositions is "El Arreglito", an habanera used by Georges Bizet in his opera Carmen. Bizet, thinking it was a folk song, took the melody of "El Arreglito" and created what is known today as the "Habanera" from Carmen: the song "L'amour est un oiseau rebelle". Yradier died in obscurity on December 6, 1865.

Habaneras like to have triplets (3 into 2) in their rhythmic structure. This feature disappears when argentine tangos and city milongas are born.

Also, while the habanera basso ostinato line typically is like this: (lowest pitch is the first note in a measure, followed by the "triangle" progression as shown),



...the modern/city milonga acquired from the beginning a basso ostinato which makes the fourth note the lowest pitch instead, effectively creating a straight-line pitch progression like shown in red; this changes the feel, apart from the tempo changes.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 7:40:15
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2766
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Habanera cubana:

La Paloma by the Basque Sebastian Yradier, written after he visited Cuba in 1861. This is one of the most popular songs of the last 200 years. The arrangement is by the 19th century Catalan "classical" guitarist, Francisco Tarrega. Pepe Romero dedicates the piece to his father, Cedledonio. Pepe told me it was one of his father's favorite pieces, the last one he played before he passed away.


This and other examples you have posted of Habaneras, Argentine Tangos, and Milongas are beautiful renditions of the genres discussed.

Speaking of Pepe and Celedonio Romero, I had the great good fortune in 1972 in Phoenix to attend a concert by the "Romeros," led by the patriarch Celedonio. And though I have attended performances by Pepe since, I consider myself fortunate to have been able to see the "Romeros" perform together. A great guitar family.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 17:44:47
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2502
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to BarkellWH

After his most recent concert here I spoke briefly with Pepe. I told him the first time I had heard him was fifty years before, with his father and brothers in San Antonio.

Then I said to him, "When you perform, you seem to enjoy it so much."

He paused for a moment, then said, "Yes..I do."

I replied, "You take us along with you. You lift our spirits."

Not only the spirits of the audience that night--a few days before he had rehearsed and performed a Vivaldi concerto, taking the solo part as 85 secondary school students from local programs initiated by the Austin Classical Guitar Society played the orchestra parts.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 21:31:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10857
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

None of the above is the real Tango .....

Just kidding, but I’m waiting for some Tango police to join....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 21:33:45
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2502
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

None of the above is the real Tango .....

Just kidding, but I’m waiting for some Tango police to join....


I think the first tango that really made a strong impression on me was "La Cumparsita."

In 1951 my father was assigned to Bolling Air Force Base in Washington, DC. We stayed in the transient family quarters for a few days, just across the street from the Officers' Club. It was summer, and after dark people occupied tables and the dance band played on the patio behind the club.

We could hear the band quite clearly. Every night they played "La Cumparsita," and got a round of applause at the end from the dancers.

The piece was played very square rhythmically, in what I take to be the modern style. I went over to watch one night. There were two or three couples who stepped out in pretty flashy style, while the rest glided around the floor keeping time competently.

Konstantin (Kitarist) says that Dyens plays "El Choclo" in the style of the guardia vieja. Here's "El Gallo Ciego" from a 1927 recording:



I'm no tango expert, but Dyens could really play Brazilian stuff. I once said to him that when I heard him play Baden Powell's "Berimbau" I kept expecting Baden to pop out of the guitar.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 22:07:26
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Just a few more tidbits before the flamenco Gods get really upset....

(BTW Of course Roland Dyens can play in any tango style - if he knew about it - I hope it did not seem like I was suggesting he can only play in the guardia vieja style (i.e. pre-1920 habanera-like) by commenting that he played El Choclo as tango is conventionally understood in classical guitar culture.)


How the Argentine tango (not 'Tango') musical form evolved (with examples): (I'll try to give mostly La Cumparsita examples)

1. 1880-1919 or so. (the rural/campera milonga precedes the tango and was in existence before 1880)

1880 is the usual year given for the first composed Argentine tango (that can be identified as such). As the tango grew out of some mixture of (africanized) habanera and other African influences due to slave trade in the Carribean and the Americas, it does have a very habanerish feel. We actually have multiple examples of what it sounded like because acoustic recordings started in Paris around 1897, and certainly by 1899-1900 Angel Villoldo (author of 'El Choclo') is said to have recorded tangos.

Tangos were popular in this era of wind instrument bands, so there are for example surviving recordings from 1907-08 of "Banda Municipal de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires". Can't find them on youtube so here's a 1917 La Cumparsita by Cuarteto Alonso - Minotto:



2. 1920 - on (replacing the habanera style)

Tangos "straighten-out" to a straight-4 rhythmic pattern. "Straight-4" because all four "beats" were accented; later we see how straight-2 emerged.

A good example is D'Arienzo's La Cumparsita (but really all his tango arrangements). By 'straight-4' I mean that if the opening 4 notes of the La Cumparsita theme are eighths within one measure of say 4/8, all four eighths are accented. Later on the straight-2 flavour emerged where only the first and third are accented (examples later on).



3. 1930ish - on (in addition to the straight-4 style)

The straight-2 flavour emerges where only the first and third are accented. Julio De Caro is probably a purveyor here and you can kind of hear this new treatment in the 1927 video Richard linked to above.

The Carlos Di Sarli orchestra does it with an air of elegance, maintaining flow while still fading 2 and 4 and accenting 1 and 3:



The Osvaldo Pugliese orchestra makes 1 and 3 even more emphasized, so its straight-2 is rather dramatic and even heavy:



(can't find the Cumparsita I wanted to use, so here's Pugliese's "La Yumba" as an even better example of his over-emphasized 1 and 3 accents - that style of his literally nicknamed "la yumba":



This era lasted till about 1955 when Argentina fell under a military dictatorship and tango (Tango) fell out of favour (as it was in favour during the Peron era before that), as well as the ascent of rock'n'roll etc etc.

P.S. Here I am limiting the scope to tangos for dancing, so I skipped the era of the star singers from the 1920s, for example. Also missing is the export to Paris in 1910 and the post 1955 era.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2018 23:46:53
 
mrstwinkle

 

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RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

By coincidence, my teacher has just suggested I learn tomo y obligo (Paco version) next. Interesting thread gives a bit of context.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2018 0:06:55
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2766
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to kitarist

quote:

How the Argentine tango musical form evolved (with examples): (I'll try to give mostly La Cumparsita examples)


Konstantin, your history of the evolution of the Argentine tango reads as if you internalized and learned it from a good deal of study and research. That and other comments you have made regarding various musical forms, including flamenco, reflect much more than just "googling" and getting information off the internet. Aside from your obvious musical ability, did you study musicology in university? If so, what was your emphasis? You bring a lot to the table in these discussions.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2018 20:56:57
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
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RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to BarkellWH

Thanks for the kind comment, Bill.

I do have a PhD in Physics; I guess I do use some transferrable skills acquired in pursuit of that when seriously studying music, including Tango (the tango-vals-milonga trinity), so that's probably relevant. I typically rely on peer-reviewed articles in international journals on any subject I decide to research. No formal musicology study or credentials, though. I did manage to give a lecture on the history of tango music and tango orchestras around 2006 at the local university.

Back in the 2000s when I was obsessing about the history and development of Tango music and orchestras I did hoover up all PhD/DMus dissertations related to tango that I can find, in addition to articles in journals. I was also a tango DJ and did my own original 'research'/thinking as Tango (esp. in terms of the musical forms) allowed it by virtue of being a somewhat soft discipline which was still not exhaustively (or systematically) studied (various reasons for that).

BTW it is interesting that even 15 years ago it was still contentious to claim that Argentine Tango could have any African (slave) input in its development. Happy to see that this does not appear controversial anymore.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2018 22:02:47
 
rombsix

Posts: 6744
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Konstantin, your history of the evolution of the Argentine tango reads as if you internalized and learned it from a good deal of study and research. That and other comments you have made regarding various musical forms, including flamenco, reflect much more than just "googling" and getting information off the internet. Aside from your obvious musical ability, did you study musicology in university? If so, what was your emphasis? You bring a lot to the table in these discussions.


Hey Bill - does this mean you're starting to agree with us? LOL

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 14:23:16
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2766
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to rombsix

quote:

Hey Bill - does this mean you're starting to agree with us? LOL


Depends on the issue, Ramzi. I never disagreed with the proposition that the Argentine tango has (and had) historical roots in Cuban Habanera and elements of African slaves (of the Spanish).

What I disagreed with was your statement early on in this thread that Argentine tango and flamenco (flamenco as a broad genre, not just flamenco "tango,") have "a lot in common." When you say "us" who do you mean? I don't think either Konstantin or Richard accepted the the proposition that Argentine tango and flamenco have a lot in common. And when I asked you to elaborate on your observation, you responded "It's hard to explain."

My compliment to Konstantin for what was obviously a well-studied and researched piece was to point out the value of digging deep in researching a topic, rather than the superficial "googling" that most people consider research to bring themselves "up to speed," as if they had known the topic all along. It is refreshing, and Konstantin is to be commended for his efforts.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 15:48:56
 
rombsix

Posts: 6744
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

What I disagreed with was your statement early on in this thread that Argentine tango and flamenco (flamenco as a broad genre, not just flamenco "tango,") have "a lot in common." When you say "us" who do you mean? I don't think either Konstantin or Richard accepted the the proposition that Argentine tango and flamenco have a lot in common. And when I asked you to elaborate on your observation, you responded "It's hard to explain."


Us refers to myselef, Juan, and probably Richard and Konstantin, but definitely Juan. :)

A lot in common - this refers to the "feel" of experiencing, listening, watching, playing, dancing, performing, and being involved in these arts. They are both very technically driven and demanding to master and to get good at. They are both very "macho" in their approach and competitive. They both have to do with sentiments of nostalgia, pain, suffering, etc. Pelando Variacion is a good example of how tango is evolving and "fast picado" show-off unofficial contests are similar to this spirit of tango. I think if you deeply immerse yourself in tango, you will get more what I am talking about rather than reading about it in books. The experience I have had with both is very similar in most if not all of the components. I'm not a historian or a musicologist, but I know what my gut feels and I trust it when it has a similar intuition about both tango and flamenco.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 18:12:06
 
Escribano

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From: England

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to rombsix

quote:

They are both very "macho" in their approach and competitive


Really? I found flamenco in Andalucía both matriarchal and communal, rather than a macho dance of seduction.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 19:17:04
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2766
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to rombsix

quote:

Us refers to myselef, Juan, and probably Richard and Konstantin, but definitely Juan. :)

A lot in common - this refers to the "feel" of experiencing, listening, watching, playing, dancing, performing, and being involved in these arts. They are both very technically driven and demanding to master and to get good at. They are both very "macho" in their approach and competitive. They both have to do with sentiments of nostalgia, pain, suffering, etc. Pelando Variacion is a good example of how tango is evolving and "fast picado" show-off unofficial contests are similar to this spirit of tango. I think if you deeply immerse yourself in tango, you will get more what I am talking about rather than reading about it in books. The experience I have had with both is very similar in most if not all of the components. I'm not a historian or a musicologist, but I know what my gut feels and I trust it when it has a similar intuition about both tango and flamenco.


I will let Richard and Konstantin speak for themselves. Nevertheless, I saw nothing in their postings on this thread that indicated to me that either one thought Argentine tango and flamenco (the broad genre we call flamenco, rather than just flamenco tango) had or have a lot in common. As for "sentiments of nostalgia, pain suffering, etc.," there are other genres, most notably, the Blues, that express those same sentiments. Yet, most aficionados of both genres would not suggest that flamenco and the Blues have a lot in common, other than those sentiments. That two genres in the constellation of music share some traits and sentiments is common enough, but one should not make the mistake of concluding that that means they have a "lot in common." They may share sentiments but diverge completely musically.

As to your suggestion that I "deeply immerse" myself in tango in order to "get more what [you are] talking about rather than reading about it in books," I can only respond that I have been listening to tango (and other Latin American music) for a good 50 years or so. I do not consider myself an expert, but I long ago developed an appreciation for tango and how it has evolved from the 1920s in Buenos Aires to today.

My disagreement concerning your proposition regarding Argentine tango and flamenco is not derived from books as you suggest. It comes from long experience listening to and appreciating both musical forms. Nevertheless, I would not exclude books and other written material if you wish to trace the development of a certain genre such as tango. If you were referring to my praise of Konstantin's study and research regarding the development of Argentine tango from Cuban Habanera and later influences, that is exactly what is needed for a well-grounded history of the genre. History is not written from the "gut." It is written using available material and selectively incorporating it to advance knowledge of the subject. Immersing one's self in a musical genre and researching its historical development are not mutually exclusive. They in fact complement each other.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 20:47:24
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Escribano

I am having a hard time thinking about this in any detail.

Shouldn't we compare dancing with dancing, musical form characteristics with same, musical interpretation with same, historical development (of each of these) with the same, labels origin with same?

Evolution of dancing is different from evolution of the musical form, at least in the tango world. While for a very long while the dance did reflect the emotional content of the music(*), things have separated since the late 1990s with the commercial export of tango dancing to North America. There was a critical mass of gringos who did not care to hear and understand what the music was saying (and money for instructors was tied to 'steps' but not to musical understanding or deeper reflection), so the Argentine tango dance 'steps' got separated from the music and started to be used with any pop or other non-tango music that fits the meter; it does not even have to fit. Then the ida y vuelta thing happened and now there are non-tango tango-dancing events in Buenos Aires.

I don't think this has happened quite so in flamenco. Also, tango is a couples dance fundamentally (not seduction; this is a historical myth with roots in 'otherness', 'taboo' and 'exoticism'), whereas flamenco dancing is focused on an individual expression. Right? I feel quite a bit 'greener' in regards to flamenco than to Argentine tango.

In any case the severing of the music-dance relationship is another topic altogether.

(*) Which meant, among other things, that people would dance differently to Di Sarli vs. D'Arienzo vs. Pugliese interpretations of tango, vals, or milonga. You can't Di-Sarli-glide to Pugliese's thumping drama... (But then some gringos said 'oh yeah, hold my beer and watch me tango-waltz to Metallica out of sync with EVERYTHING')

P.S. Yes, this is probably too harsh - people just want to have fun and socialize and...

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 21:25:56
 
rombsix

Posts: 6744
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Escribano

quote:

Really? I found flamenco in Andalucía both matriarchal and communal, rather than a macho dance of seduction.




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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2018 1:54:31
 
rombsix

Posts: 6744
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to rombsix

Bill, I don't know what to tell ya, man... It sounds to me that there are folks other than yourself and me who feel that flamenco and Argentine tango do have several things in common. I'm not talking about doing a historical analysis. I guess it makes more sense for me to drop the topic at this point because it doesn't feel like you're going to look at things from a different perspective and I am not going to either, so might as well use our time to do something more productive. LOL - cheers!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2018 2:02:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10857
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

Just a few more tidbits before the flamenco Gods get really upset....

(BTW Of course Roland Dyens can play in any tango style - if he knew about it - I hope it did not seem like I was suggesting he can only play in the guardia vieja style (i.e. pre-1920 habanera-like) by commenting that he played El Choclo as tango is conventionally understood in classical guitar culture.)


How the Argentine tango (not 'Tango') musical form evolved (with examples): (I'll try to give mostly La Cumparsita examples)

1. 1880-1919 or so. (the rural/campera milonga precedes the tango and was in existence before 1880)

1880 is the usual year given for the first composed Argentine tango (that can be identified as such). As the tango grew out of some mixture of (africanized) habanera and other African influences due to slave trade in the Carribean and the Americas, it does have a very habanerish feel. We actually have multiple examples of what it sounded like because acoustic recordings started in Paris around 1897, and certainly by 1899-1900 Angel Villoldo (author of 'El Choclo') is said to have recorded tangos.

Tangos were popular in this era of wind instrument bands, so there are for example surviving recordings from 1907-08 of "Banda Municipal de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires". Can't find them on youtube so here's a 1917 La Cumparsita by Cuarteto Alonso - Minotto:



2. 1920 - on (replacing the habanera style)

Tangos "straighten-out" to a straight-4 rhythmic pattern. "Straight-4" because all four "beats" were accented; later we see how straight-2 emerged.

A good example is D'Arienzo's La Cumparsita (but really all his tango arrangements). By 'straight-4' I mean that if the opening 4 notes of the La Cumparsita theme are eighths within one measure of say 4/8, all four eighths are accented. Later on the straight-2 flavour emerged where only the first and third are accented (examples later on).



3. 1930ish - on (in addition to the straight-4 style)

The straight-2 flavour emerges where only the first and third are accented. Julio De Caro is probably a purveyor here and you can kind of hear this new treatment in the 1927 video Richard linked to above.

The Carlos Di Sarli orchestra does it with an air of elegance, maintaining flow while still fading 2 and 4 and accenting 1 and 3:



The Osvaldo Pugliese orchestra makes 1 and 3 even more emphasized, so its straight-2 is rather dramatic and even heavy:



(can't find the Cumparsita I wanted to use, so here's Pugliese's "La Yumba" as an even better example of his over-emphasized 1 and 3 accents - that style of his literally nicknamed "la yumba":



This era lasted till about 1955 when Argentina fell under a military dictatorship and tango (Tango) fell out of favour (as it was in favour during the Peron era before that), as well as the ascent of rock'n'roll etc etc.

P.S. Here I am limiting the scope to tangos for dancing, so I skipped the era of the star singers from the 1920s, for example. Also missing is the export to Paris in 1910 and the post 1955 era.


.... and finally a new species...




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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2018 2:42:14
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to Ricardo

And here is La Cumparista as a tango vals. Shows you how a musical composition can take on different musical 'hats' and still be very recognizable and keep its compositional essence.

So the composition is more than the musical form it is in and some massaging of note durations can happen to fit it into a different form while preserving neighbouring note duration ratios(?) in a such a way that the composition remains intact. Well the bandoneon variation at the end is a bit forced as they try to fit all the original notes into triplets.

I think Ricardo mentioned this in a flamenco context as well, a while ago, but can't remember when or what (palo? composition?) about.

Anyway I think it is a very interesting example of 'compositional invariance':



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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2018 3:38:46
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2766
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to rombsix

quote:

I guess it makes more sense for me to drop the topic at this point because it doesn't feel like you're going to look at things from a different perspective and I am not going to either, so might as well use our time to do something more productive. LOL - cheers!


Let's just agree to (agreeably) disagree. There's always something useful that comes out of these exchanges. Moreover, they draw in members who bring their own interesting perspectives to the table.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2018 21:23:43
 
rombsix

Posts: 6744
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tangos Argentinos y Flamencos (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Let's just agree to (agreeably) disagree. There's always something useful that comes out of these exchanges. Moreover, they draw in members who bring their own interesting perspectives to the table.


The silver lining.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2018 23:56:05
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