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RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher in Boston/Cambridge
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
I agree with your above-cited observations, Simon. That both the blues and flamenco are often rooted in hardship, oppression, and life's travails does not mean they have anything in common musically. They have little if anything in common musically, just as flamenco has little if anything in common with Argentine Tango. Argentine Tango is a very different musical form with a far different provenance than flamenco. One might as well find commonalities between flamenco and Merle Haggard's country classic "Working Man Blues" because it deals with hardship and life's travails. They don't equate.
That does not mean one cannot create a "flamenco version" of standards from other genres. For example, long ago I once attended a performance by Carlos Montoya in which he played a "flamenco version" of "St. Louis Blues." (He also recorded it on a couple of albums.) It was interesting and clever, but no one would ever equate "St. Louis Bues" with flamenco as a result, or, for that matter, Carlos's version of "St. Louis Blues" with authentic flamenco. Same with "fusion" versions of other genres. That does not make for "commonality."
I am always open to different points of view, but I have seen nothing in this thread that offers any evidence that flamenco and Argentine Tango have a lot (or anything) in common.
and the usual histories of Argentine tango agree in attributing Afro-American origins to both the flamenco and Argentine versions. "Afro-American" not in the sense of black citizens of the USA, rather in the sense of descendants of enslaved Africans in Latin America.
The flamenco tango's ancestor is said to have arrived in Spain in the 1840s. Enrique El Mellizo is recognized as the originator of the tango de Cadiz, now most frequently represented by tanguillos. The Sevillana Pastora Pavon, "La Niña de los Peines" recorded a considerable repertoire of tangos. The article cited above remarks on the contrast between the 3- and 12-beat compases of the older flamenco palos, and the 2- or 4-beat compas of tangos.
In Argentina the tango evolved into the even 4-beat pattern so often heard (except in forms like the milonga-tango), while the flamenco syncopation became most accentuated in tientos.
For solo guitar fans here's Ramon Montoya.
There's a flamenco milonga as well, which diverged rhythmically from the American version by the time it came to be recorded.
All the same, the two versions of tango have evolved sufficiently, from whatever common origin they may have, to be called different species, in my opinion. Perhaps as closely related as leopards and cheetas, not so different as fish and fowl.
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to jg7238)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jg7238
quote:
I feel that Argentine tango music and flamenco music have a lot of things in common.
Yes! I have to agree.
I have to disagree, unless you mean both styles have improvisation and mainly use a nylon string guitar (if there even is a guitar).
I like both tango and flamenco, but I don't see much overlap in the music or technique. In fact, my teacher in Argentina preferred to use a guitar pick while playing tango, and he was classically trained!
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
and the usual histories of Argentine tango agree in attributing Afro-American origins to both the flamenco and Argentine versions. "Afro-American" not in the sense of black citizens of the USA, rather in the sense of descendants of enslaved Africans in Latin America.
True, and there have always been Latin American influences on flamenco. Just note the "cantes de ida y vuelta." Nevertheless, that is a far cry from claiming that Argentine Tango (as we have known it since the turn of the last century) and flamenco "have a lot in common." They are very different musical forms, each using very different instruments, and each with a very different provenance. Nevertheless, I am still open to persuasion if someone could demonstrate what they have in common today.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Perhaps as closely related as leopards and cheetas, not so different as fish and fowl.
It is probably dangerous (and certainly inexact!) to apply animal taxonomy to describe different genres of music, but I would agree that to compare Argentine Tango and flamenco to "fish and fowl" is a bridge too far. It would be more accurate to compare Argentine Tango to, say, Javanese Gamelan (with the Sinden singing in Javanese) with fish and fowl, i.e., there is no comparison.
Nevertheless, in my opinion, Argentine Tango and flamenco are not as closely related as leopards and cheetahs. As I have noted previously, they are two very different genres in just about every way, not to the extent of Tango and Gamelan, but still very different. Perhaps a better comparison would be to leopards and antelopes.
I think this exhausts my thoughts on the subject.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
It is probably dangerous (and certainly inexact!) to apply animal taxonomy to describe different genres of music...<snip>
Nevertheless, in my opinion, Argentine Tango and flamenco are not as closely related as leopards and cheetahs. <snip>Perhaps a better comparison would be to leopards and antelopes.
Cheers,
Bill
Until the subject came up here I had thought it was mere coincidence that both flamenco tangos and Argentine tango have the same name. The two seemed musically quite distinct to me. Paco Peña assures us there is no connection, and his opinion is certainly due respect.
But Googling a bit I came across the fact that historians say they have a common ancestor, the Cuban habanera.
The feasibility of sequencing entire genomes has revolutionized biological taxonomy, but for music we are still limited to the tools of historical research.
"The dance derives from the Cuban habanera, the Argentine milonga and candombe, and is said to contain elements from the African community in Buenos Aires, influenced both by ancient African rhythms and the music from Europe."
"Even though the present forms developed in Argentina and Uruguay from the mid 19th century, [6] there are earlier written records of Tango dances in Cuba and Spain,[7][8] while there is a flamenco Tangos dance that may share a common ancestor in a minuet-style European dance.[5] All sources stress the influence of the African communities and their rhythms, while the instruments and techniques brought in by European immigrants played a major role in its final definition, relating it to the Salon music styles to which Tango would contribute back at a later stage, when it became fashionable in early 20th century Paris."
The article "Tangos" on Faustino Nuñez's excellent site Flamencopolis contains the following:
"El patrón de tango o habanera, se dice que procede de las contradanzas que llegaron a América durante el siglo XVIII. Se ha dicho que fueron los franceses huídos de Haití los que llevaron a Cuba el patrón de tango, nosotros pensamos más bien que fueron los esclavos de Santiago de Cuba quienes comenzaron a desarrollar el patrón, llevándolo a La Habana, tomando forma comenzado el siglo XIX, y desde allí se extendió como la pólvora por todo Occidente. Primero llega a la capital americana de la metrópoli española, Cádiz, como tango americano, y comenzándose a insertar como uno de los números centrales en las zarzuelas."
Nuñez continues with a detailed account of the adaptation of the tango americano to the flamenco tangos.
You only have to go back to the late 19th-early 20th century to find a common ancestor of Argentine and flamenco tango/tangos/tanguillos, namely the Cuban habanera of the late 19th century. Nuñez points out that in Spain the piece was called "habanera" if the subject was romantic, "tango" if comic.
Traces of common ancestry remain in flamenco tangos:
Binary compas instead of 12-beat. When cantiñas entered flamenco it morphed to a 12-beat compas, while retaining its diatonic tonality.
Diatonic major key of tanguillos instead of the andaluz scale. These days however, it seems more common to end tientos (a slow tangos) with an up-tempo tango por medio, rather than the older style of ending with tanguillos in A-major, as Montoya does in the solo guitar example above, following the practice of contemporary singers like Pastora Pavon "La Niña de los Peines".
Culture evolves far more rapidly than genomes do, so it is certainly a matter of opinion how closely related the two genres may still be, due to sharing a recent common ancestor.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
But Googling a bit I came across the fact that historians say they have a common ancestor, the Cuban habanera.
It is entirely possible that Argentine Tango and flamenco tangos (flamenco tangos, not flamenco as a broad musical genre) have a common ancestor in the Cuban Habanera. As I noted above, flamenco has been influenced by Latin American elements ("Ida y Vuelta") brought back to Spain by the Spanish colonists. But that is very different than stating that flamenco (as a broad musical genre) and Argentine Tango "have a lot in common." They do not, and here I am with Paco Pena. I'm sure even Paco Pena would acknowledge certain Latin American "influences" on flamenco, but flamenco is still a distinct genre as opposed to Argentine Tango, with little if anything in common between the two.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to BarkellWH)
I think you're reading too much into that comment. In the sentence right before the one you quote, he said that he'd rather decipher the sheet music with a flamenco teacher than with a classical teacher, which suggests that the commonalities he's talking about aren't in the sheet music per se but rather in the approach to the music. Jg's comment (and example) I think is on point. I may not quantify those similarities the same way Ramzi would, but if all I had to choose from to learn tango was a classical or a flamenco teacher, I'd definitely go with the flamenco teacher.
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RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Escribano)
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Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
As I noted above, flamenco has been influenced by Latin American elements ("Ida y Vuelta") brought back to Spain by the Spanish colonists. But that is very different than stating that flamenco (as a broad musical genre) and Argentine Tango "have a lot in common." They do not, and here I am with Paco Pena. I'm sure even Paco Pena would acknowledge certain Latin American "influences" on flamenco, but flamenco is still a distinct genre as opposed to Argentine Tango, with little if anything in common between the two.
Bill
I should make it clear that I don't debate your position.
What has prompted my posts has been my discovery that Argentine and flamenco tangos are in fact fairly closely related, while I had previously accepted what I had read and been told, that there was effectively no connection between them.
Better advice would have been, "They share a common heritage, but don't confuse them, because by now they are quite different."
The cultures of flamenco and (as far as I know) urban Argentine tango since the 1920s, always seemed quite different to me, and still do.
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to jg7238)
You know flamenco tangos and Argentine tango always sounded totally different to me, but for whatever reason the farruca reminds me a bit of Argentine tangos
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to rombsix)
Dunno if you're still interested in this Ramzi, but 3 rather long videos from the guy Ricardo mentioned (Pino Enriquez) have since been put on youtube:
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Argentine tango guitar teacher i... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
Dunno if you're still interested in this Ramzi, but 3 rather long videos from the guy Ricardo mentioned (Pino Enriquez) have since been put on youtube:
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