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estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

Persimmon Sisters - Pair of classicals 

The project I'm working on in the guitar kobo- I was given a 90 year old tansu made of persimmon wood, it was not in good condition so I resawed as much of the persimmon as possible and am building two guitars with the tansu wood.

My friend Hamachan named them the Tansu Sisters tonight when he visited my shop. The rosettes are the same style, the bracing systems are as alike as I could make them. The difference is one is made with matsu, pine ribs from the back of the tansu, and one is made with persimmon ( Kaki wood in Japanese) from the front of the tansu- The concept is showy wood and more humble wood in the same pair of guitars. Working to finish them because I think they will sound fantastic.









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2018 13:36:17
 
Escribano

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From: England, living in Italy

RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

Love the repurposing of old wood. Can't wait to see the finish on them.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2018 17:32:23
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

Truly interesting material being used as well as nice even separation of grain lines in the top.

Where's my wallet

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2018 18:58:22
 
estebanana

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

These tops are the best grade Engelmann I can get from Dave Myers in Canada- Amazing stuff, stiff along the grain and light. You can leave meat in the top if you want.

The ribs of one guitar are persimmon, and the ribs of the other are matsu, Japanese pine. The pine is 90 years old and I saved some for making a top. It will make a fantastic top, but that's down the road, I have to build a negra for an Aussie after this pair.

I may build a whole guitar with pine, and spruce top, just to prove a point. Were not paying attention to repurposing woods enough. The Spanish makers during the Civil War saved everything, Domingo Esteso cobblered his heels together with small pieces he saved. I grew up very poor and I think we are spoiled with boutique woods and attitudes so I connect with the Spanish makers who had difficult years. I'm just going to kick out guitars made with repurposed woods, as well as the store bought fancy woods.

I was chatting with Aaron Green and told him this stuff and he was encouraging, I said can't sell the aesthetic of using the mean of materials, I'm not famous. He said just continue to do it like you meant it. If people want it they'll be attracted to it, if not, to hell with them.

Good business plan right? LOL

The back of the one that has the neck ready to install the back- That back has 8 panels, I resawed that back from a 3 -1/2" wide board and arranged it in that composition. I think it was a brilliant save if I say so myself.

ギター工房で現在製作中のプロジェクトについて。

90年ぐらい前の柿の木でつくられた箪笥を知り合いから譲ってもらったのですが、箪笥の保存状態があまり良いとは言えなかったので、柿の木を最大限に再利用して、箪笥の木から2つのギターの製作をしてます。

友人の浜ちゃんは、この2つのギターを「箪笥シスターズ」と、昨夜工房に訪ねて来た時に名付けました。

2つのギターのロゼット部分は同じスタイル。
ブレーシング(内側)の作りはできるだけ同じになるようにしています。

2つの違いは、1つは箪笥の背面に使われていた「松」、もう1つは箪笥の表面に使われていた「柿の木」で、サイド(側面)を作ってます。

コンセプトは、「派手な木目」と「少し控えめな木目」で、同じスタイルのギターを作ることにあります。
この2つのギターの音色はかなり素晴らしくなると思うので、完成させるために頑張ってます!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 2:46:45
 
Piwin

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

I had a job this week with some aerospace engineer type people. They kept on talking about "legacy" this and that. It turns out a "legacy component" or whatever is really just recycled parts if I understood them correctly. We guitarists are a vain bunch. We don't want your recycled or repurposed wood. But I'd pay double for that sweet legacy wood.

The sisters are looking good.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 12:27:12
 
Escribano

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From: England, living in Italy

RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

It turns out a "legacy component" or whatever is really just recycled parts if I understood them correctly


In the tech. industry "legacy" means the incumbent system i.e. what was is already there and in use. I would be surprised if it is any different in aerospace. Legacy is not recycled as much as it is replaced or integrated with.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 14:20:12
 
estebanana

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

As I grow older the words 'legacy wood' take on many meanings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 14:34:52
 
Piwin

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Escribano

In context, the "integrated with" option makes sense. ("we don't have to spent too much time building X2 for this new operation because we aren't starting from scratch but from legacy X", if that makes any sense). I probably shouldn't have use the word "recycle" since I just meant it in the non-technical sense of re-using something.

@Hugh Hefnebanana
I'm sure I have no idea what you mean.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 14:45:41
 
Escribano

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From: England, living in Italy

RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

I probably shouldn't have use the word "recycle" since I just meant it in the non-technical sense of re-using something.


Fair enough. If the legacy system already has the functionality, then you may well re-use it... "leverage" in tech. speak

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 14:54:46
 
estebanana

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

@Hugh Hefnebanana
I'm sure I have no idea what you mean.


Ahh, just reminiscing about an Italian girl I know. Persimmons, here persimmons there.

Hef is not one of my fav guys...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 15:06:40
 
Piwin

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Escribano

In the end it didn't really matter since I had no idea how to say "legacy component" in French! I just skirted around the issue by using the actual name of the component they were talking about. I probably could've said "légacie componante" and got away with it. I've heard French engineers use "léverager" as a word before. Pretty sure that one isn't in the dictionnary yet.

Here's to estabanana leveraging legacy wood to erect new guitars. Or something.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 15:28:50
 
RobJe

 

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Here's to estabanana leveraging legacy wood to erect new guitars


The correct term is “re-purposing”

Originally the wood was part of a structure that

• provided shade to the weary traveller
• removed carbon dioxide from the air, releasing oxygen and storing the carbon
• helped to prevent soil erosion
• created a feeling of wellbeing in those with eyes to see

Next it made a tansu that provided storage for who knows what.

• swords?
• food?
• clothes?

Now in Stephen’s hands it will turn into a thing of beauty capable of producing wondrous music.

It is sad the history of a guitar is narrowly conceived as "played by Moraito", "signed by Paco" or "recommended by Vicente".


Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 10:42:04
 
Piwin

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to RobJe

quote:

The correct term is “re-purposing”


Out of curiosity, is there a difference between "re-purposed", "reclaimed" and "salvaged" or is it just that one is the technical term and the others more generic terms?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 12:15:46
 
Escribano

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From: England, living in Italy

RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Out of curiosity, is there a difference between "re-purposed", "reclaimed" and "salvaged" or is it just that one is the technical term and the others more generic terms?


You can say it's "made from reclaimed wood". "Salvaged wood" would imply it's rescued from a dump or rubbish tip, but works much the same.

"Repurposed" is making something else out of another thing, whilst "reclaimed" or "salvaged" wood is the material, as opposed to the original object.

However, if you salvage or reclaim an object it is normally going to continue to be that object. Clear?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 12:50:32
 
estebanana

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to RobJe

quote:

The correct term is “re-purposing”

Originally the wood was part of a structure that

• provided shade to the weary traveller
• removed carbon dioxide from the air, releasing oxygen and storing the carbon
• helped to prevent soil erosion
• created a feeling of wellbeing in those with eyes to see

Next it made a tansu that provided storage for who knows what.

• swords?
• food?
• clothes?

Now in Stephen’s hands it will turn into a thing of beauty capable of producing wondrous music.

It is sad the history of a guitar is narrowly conceived as "played by Moraito", "signed by Paco" or "recommended by Vicente".


Rob


Ole' tu.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 13:28:37
 
Piwin

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Escribano

I think so. Thanks.
For clarification, "repurposed" necessarily means the original object, correct? Say, if I take a cabinet and take parts of it to make a grandfather clock (dumb example, but first thing that came to mind for some reason ), I would say a "repurposed cabinet" not a "repurposed clock"? The clock would be "clock made from reclaimed wood"?

And Domingo Esteso cobbling his shoes with small pieces that otherwise would have been thrown out is using "salvaged wood"?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 13:31:50
 
RobJe

 

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From: UK

RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Out of curiosity, is there a difference between "re-purposed", "reclaimed" and "salvaged" or is it just that one is the technical term and the others more generic terms?


When I said “correct term” I should have said “the term I like to use!” Using different terms and arguing about them allows us to consider subtle distinctions and shades of meaning. I like “repurpose” because …. well you can probably fill the rest from what I have already said.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 13:33:13
 
Escribano

Posts: 6322
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From: England, living in Italy

RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Say, if I take a cabinet and take parts of it to make a grandfather clock (dumb example, but first thing that came to mind for some reason ), I would say a "repurposed cabinet" not a "repurposed clock"? The clock would be "clock made from reclaimed wood"?


Correct.

quote:

And Domingo Esteso cobbling his shoes with small pieces that otherwise would have been thrown out is using "salvaged wood"?


Correct. If had he found a pair of shoes and cleaned them up a bit, he would have salvaged the shoes. Of course, he might make another pair of shoes from the salvaged wood :-)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 13:47:05
 
Escribano

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From: England, living in Italy

RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to RobJe

quote:

I like “repurpose” because


In this example, me too. Stephen is finding another purpose for the tansu wood.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 13:49:02
 
Piwin

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to RobJe

I hear you. But for me how you pros are using the terms is the correct use. I'm just bugging you guys with this because my brain is secretly reeling to find some way of translating the terms into French! Reclaimed and salvaged I've got (réemploi and récupération) but repurposed I can't find anything that reflects that particular meaning. "Transformé" (i.e. "transformed") is probably what would be used for "repurposed" but it's also what is used to say "processed" so I'd have no means to differentiate processed wood from repurposed wood. Though I guess it would matter that much since, in light of your explanation, processed wood is necessarily repurposed wood (i.e. has a different purpose than the original purpose of the living tree). Anyways, thanks for your explanation. I'm off to scour the French-speaking Internet to find an answer if there is one (I'm such a nerd that this is actually fun for me! ).
@Escribano Thanks for the confirmation!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 14:09:34
 
RobJe

 

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Piwin

It's good not to try and nail down terms like this.

I now claim to dislike "re-purpose" and prefer "re-imagine" - see where that takes you.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 14:15:04
 
Piwin

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to RobJe

quote:

see where that takes you




But it's my job to yearn to nail it down. And it's the job of the original term to keep on escaping me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 14:44:34
 
RobJe

 

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

But it's my job to yearn to nail it down. And it's the job of the original term to keep on escaping me.


I didn’t mean to be flippant about this!

I have no disagreement about Esteso’s shoe repair or your cabinet/clock example. But we are now treading into dangerous waters with the thorny issues of translation. The terms need to be understood in the context of common usage in the communities in which they have some kind of shared meaning. The terms re-purpose, re-imagine and up-cycle (repurpose, reimagine and upcycle) are used in the UK by people who don’t like to see things being burnt, buried or melted down and would prefer to find new uses for them. They turn old stage lights into domestic lighting, broken pinball machines into coffee tables, odd plates into carefully chosen unmatched sets, vintage American advertising yardsticks into mosaic table tops and so on. The terms are used interchangeably by some but others would insist that one describes what they do more accurately.

I have a lot of experience in problems of translation where conveying meaning is critical but this is not the place to discuss it.

For more (or less?) enlightenment you could try Alice’s conversation with Humpty Dumpty in Alice through the Looking Glass – especially but not only the text around 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 16:28:33
 
Piwin

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to RobJe

Oh no worries I didn't think you were being flippant. I was just making a remark on the elusive nature of translation.

But you're right, not the right place.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2018 21:22:23
 
estebanana

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

The evil pine- fir-matsu ribs.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2018 14:22:11
 
RobF

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

I’m really looking forward to seeing these once completed, very cool.

Just curious, was there enough of the darker Persimmon left over from the side set of the other guitar to rip any binding strips?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2018 22:38:10
 
estebanana

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

No bindings, the all persimmon will probably get figured maple binding. The pine-persimmon likely ebony or cocobolo.... I'm going to have that talk with myself today or tomorrow.

I appreciate what you said the other day Rob, and I think other makers do too. We mainly build to order and have to work to a narrow standard. But I think it's important to remember what it was that gets you as as maker excited, what motivated you to try building. Making guitars that are different or less narrow in material is very interesting to me personally, so to keep it fresh or to continue to invent your 'brand' and style I think going with your own instinct is vital. You can always make a 'proper guitar' but a few different looking guitars with good presence are important too.

I think the market tends to tick off criteria like, does such and such artist play this mark, or as you said, did Paco sign it? Mostly meaningless. I want to see more people understand the guitar as an object that first can facilitate making good music, but also as an object that has a presence or vibe as an object.

To that end some makers take it strictly down a formal path, decorative details flawlessly executed. Feats if wood working. Or like more of what I do is work from how materials make us feel, how materials themselves speak. Both are valid, but whichever way you go the important thing is to make something with beautiful presence. Like great music.

Lots of guitar making looks like Muzak- either because it's too stiff and formal, or because it was mindless ly made...milled out.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

You know what I'll say..

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2018 0:31:23
 
Leñador

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

Why did I keep assuming this thread was a video of a classical duet.
Beautiful wood! What are those sides???

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2018 3:14:06
 
estebanana

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RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

Pine-fir dude

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2018 3:40:40
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: Persimmon Sisters - Pair of clas... (in reply to estebanana

I saw that and thought I was misunderstanding. I didn’t know there was such a thing, I thought there was pine and there was fir.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2018 4:20:22
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