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Ruphus

Posts: 3751
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

Homegrown Like Tropical Wood 

Been off the internet for some months. Good thing about it that I went into realizing a sketch for a new book. Really thrilling plot playing in times about 10 years from now. -Hollywood, craving for passable skripts since years, could be liking it, if only me be better in terms of PR this time.

Anyway, what I actually want to tell is that on the German TV channel DW there was a feature weeks ago about whether common European wood could be made equaling tone wood of known tropic sorts.
I think they engaged folks from Fraunhofer, but don´t quote me on that.
First discovery: We guys who think to sense something special with old wood / aged instruments, have not been esoteric lunatics.
It actually contributes to a fuller tone.
Reasons being quite what specialists used to assume. Obvious changes over time of fibre and resin was mentioned.

Secondly, they found that treating common sorts at specific kiln drying procedures at up to 300° C made the wood sorts alter and come up to characteristics of fine tropic / subtropical specimen.
One guitar then was built and played by a classical player. She liked it very well, and it sounded nice on the TV-set too. Not dull / slow at all.

Naturally, the project wasn´t dealing with the most important factor: Guitar building methods and skills, but with respect to material it appears like a great thing to me if standards have been found to improve material, if not make to bring mediocre stuff to top quality.

Personally, for experience with guitars of woods like maple, I always thought that good making should be able to produce great stuff with ordinary tree specimens, and in past years in this section of the foro several builders have reported to have made good use of 'ordinary' non-tropical material.

If northern Cinderella trees can be ensured to deliver well by specified treatment, just the better for the guitar building in general, I guess.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2018 13:43:34
 
estebanana

 

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

I had no idea that chemists were still making such good LSD. Where do you get it these days?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2018 8:25:37
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3751
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

Homegrown, if you have a nano printer.
-

Always amazing how instantly you spot useless contents, even when you never heard of them.
Only apparent consistency with your analytics being related to WHO says something instead of WHAT.

How do you produce that precision targeting? (- Without access to a kind of superior assistant [advanced state of AI] in ways occuring in my new skript?)
-

PS:
Found the report.
http://www.dw.com/de/projekt-zukunft-tropenholz-autonomes-auto-hirnforschung/av-42617898

The feature about the experimenting with wood starts at around 19:10

Tech folks were from the Hochschule für nachhaltige Entwicklung Eberswalde (Academy for sustaining development Eberswalde)

Shortcuts:
# Chemical compund of wood changes with heat.
# The proportion of cellulosis and firmness determining lignin and hemicellulosis are defining sound characteristics of wood.
# Statement: It is unclear what exactly makes the acoustic properties of tropical woods, but quest has been to see whether and in how far local wood specimens could be altered in ways so that they would come close to prefered tropical material.

# The people at HNEE examined 30 different native woods (in Germany) and reserached which amount of time and temperature would yield optimal sound results for individual specimens.
The max. temp was 180°C, not 300 as I recalled above. Max. h was 3 hours.

# It was stated that much to their surprise ash and alder improved the most and delivered best results.
Unfortunately, ash however due to shoot dying is only scarcely availabe anymore. Alder however being well in supply still.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2018 8:49:22
 
estebanana

 

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus,
The guitar supply companies have been selling heat treatment woods for the last five years. It's wood that is cooked a little bit in a reduced oxygen kiln. This information is redundant. You might have asked before assuming it has not been happening already.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 1:00:58
 
Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

So, you really believe that all the mind engaged in this investigation, including a specialist on antique instruments and scientific staff just overslept long-known locus communis?

My language ought to have been too unintelligible anyway to convey that this was not just kiln drying for to prepare wood before processing, for it to not warp afterwards. Nor that it was a dedicated series of procedures for specifying individual conditions with diverse sorts in respect of optimal acoustic properties.
And you have probably built dozens of instruments from optimally prepared alder, anyway.

Wearing sackcloth and ash ashes, why only do I keep bothering cracks with boring or absurd bits. Naively underestimating oracles of Delphi.

I´ll go now and behead myself with a stick of BRW.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 7:41:46
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

Here, read up on the news: The process is called 'Torrefaction' and it's more complicated than a simple kiln, it is cooking off sugars and other volatile components in woods that usually take decades to naturally oxidize or out gas....what ever you call the process it takes place in kilns that are able to roast in a vacuum or reduced oxygen.

The industry has been awash in talk about this process for ten years, and everything from guitar tops to electric guitar necks can be bought after going through one of the various processes.

And the process is not new, it's been known to charcoal makers ( for centuries) and violin and painting forgers for decades. Roasting materials in a reduced oxygen kiln basically artificially ages them. Violin forgers used to cook violins and people who forged old master paintings used to cook the canvas and wood support panels to make them appear old.

In the case of guitar a violin wood, the process cooks out some of the resins and other products and even changes the cellulose to be more 'dry'.

https://bourgeoisguitars.net/our-news/dana-bourgeois-on-torrefaction-for-acoustic-guitar/

http://www.nuglobalnrg.com/torrefaction2.html

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 8:15:52
 
rojarosguitar

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Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to estebanana

I don't know about homegrown in literal sense, but Witty Pear (Sotb Tree) seems to have sonic properties that are close to best rosewoods according to my friend Sebastian Stenzel (a quite well known luthier), who by now has made 3 or 4 guitars with sorb tree bodies which all were absolutely gorgeous... It looks also very nice and could be very suitable for negras...

Unfortunately, sorb tree is also not easy to obtain in Europe... but there are some efforts to recultivate this tree.

see here: Stenzel Witty Pear

Another great wood that comes to mind is Walnut, which is not difficult to get by and can give absolutely stunning sonic results, like that one:

Stenzel Walnut

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 9:16:33
 
Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

Stenzel´s guitars impressed me a lot in recordings. I consider him a very fine builder.
- As I just saw, he uses Scheller mechanics too like Dammann. Only the best for such instruments.
-


Stephen,

I don´t recall to have mentioned this method of drying as an invention.
Where do you read that in my posts?

It can´t be that you still don´t get it.
The new thing in that documentary is that systematical testing has been done to see which precise amount of time and heat will yield which exact verified result with patterns of each individual of 30 different species.

That way it is known now which acoustic effect what kind of procedure has on which sort of wood.

Things have been made more clear, including unexpected results.
If you refuse to see what the test has been about, thinking a scientific team had been needlessly investigating what could have been known before already, just leave it be. Thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 12:51:38
 
Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

"Baked wood" is pretty popular among electric guitars. It started with the baked maple for the necks and now they are putting the whole thing in the oven.

I predict that the builders in Spain will get their wives cooking their wood.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 12:59:52
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

It can´t be that you still don´t get it.
The new thing in that documentary is that systematical testing has been done to see which precise amount of time and heat will yield which exact verified result with patterns of each individual of 30 different species.

That way it is known now which acoustic effect what kind of procedure has on which sort of wood.


Sorry mate, but luthiers have already been doing the research and companies have been selling the results. There are several makers in the violin world who have been working on this problem. And many of us makers have been talking about ( screaming at you to get your focus off rosewood) alternatives to the rosewood and the players are just now arriving at the party. Welcome to the party mate.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 13:05:44
 
Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

"Baked wood" is pretty popular ...


>yawn<
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 13:06:34
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3751
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana


Sorry mate, but luthiers have already been doing the research and companies have been selling the results. There are several makers in the violin world who have been working on this problem. And many of us makers have been talking about ( screaming at you to get your focus off rosewood) alternatives to the rosewood and the players are just now arriving at the party. Welcome to the party mate.


Hah! You do a search as to when I mentioned expectation that local woods may do as well, and when your first entry of such remark might have been.


Now, you can sure present data in the way established in above mentioned investigation, so that I may contact the people in the academy and ask them why they are doing useless tests.

Take your time. I´m waiting.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 13:13:24
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

Grow up.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 13:29:19
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3751
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

Promised.
The minute that you deliver the proof to your claim.
Hop!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 13:44:24

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to estebanana

quote:

The guitar supply companies have been selling heat treatment woods for the last five years.


I have been a bit out of construction since my friend Rafael Lopez passed on, but I seem to remember that Barber offerred this treatment 10 or 15 years ago.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2018 15:19:30
 
estebanana

 

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Promised.
The minute that you deliver the proof to your claim.
Hop!


There is no burden of proof on me. You're just as arrogant as ever.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2018 0:08:25
 
printer2

 

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Joined: Sep. 19 2015
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

Doesn't have to be done in a vacuum or protective environment. 180 degrees is lower than I used. I was at 195 and managed in an air oven, 180 would be no problem. I have done spruce, cedar, maple, cherry, oak, birch, jatoba, thought there was another one but I can't think of it now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2018 4:14:15
 
estebanana

 

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to printer2

Not to put too fine a point in it, but torrefaction and kiln drying are two different processes which achieve different ends. Kiln drying does not go so far as changing the hemicellulose and lignin structure in the wood. Kiln drying is great though, it pulls the moisture out of wood.

There are also other processes being worked out now by some violin makers that work with heating to higher temperatures in a lowered oxygen kiln. The results I've seen from these processes has make solid wood as light as nomex double tops. So why laminate? The work is not commercially available now.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2018 23:19:00
 
Echi

 

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Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Homegrown Like Tropical Wood (in reply to Ruphus

I have read some of this stuff some years ago and knew someone gave it a try in guitarmaking.
I’m aware of few makers using the baked spruce for guitar tops though.
I know Tobias Braun has been offering it as an option for some years and that Simon Ambridge made is own flamenco guitar with a baked top, but then he didn’t follow up.
For what I know some serious studies have been made in Sweden as they have some know how on pine treatment to make it more wear/wether resistant.
I have read also some Cremona “lutherie booklets” about wood treatment, after some observations risen by Sacconi about the wood treatment in the time of Stradivari.
A pupil of Sacconi told me that the master himself in the last years gave up with such treatment as he discover more drawbacks than advantages.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2018 11:08:34
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