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rombsix

Posts: 7585
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Alternative Techniques... 



Thoughts?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2018 3:26:17
 
kitarist

Posts: 1342
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

Meh.

1. On the dedillo technique - he builds up this strawman argument for why somehow im is less comfortable due to differing length of i and m fingers. There are several things he brings up which are not correct - the angle is not opposite to what you do on a cello; you don't have to make your hand perpendicular to the strings to improve the fit (it makes it worse); he does not address that fingers are not hard sticks but have two more degrees of freedom so we can bend i and m by differing amounts so the fingertips align properly; you don't have to lift your arm in the air like that (maybe if you are playing a silent guitar without a body). So, fine, do dedillo because you feel like it, but don't tell me it is somehow better than im picado.

2. On alzapua - so essentially he substitutes index for the thumb and does the exact the same strokes. Not sure what the point is. Also claims it is somehow more natural combined with arpeggios etc. when it is the opposite - now you've tied up your index finger whereas before you had the thumb free to do alzapua and cami fingers to do other things.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2018 3:43:53
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

Uh oh! Sacrilege!
Looks pretty ergonomic to me, I'll likely take a wack at those. I think I remember habichuela nieto doing something close to the thumb technique.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2018 3:46:10
 
Piwin

Posts: 3316
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

All that matters to me is sound. If he can make both of those techniques sound like proper picado or alzapua and he's more comfortable like that, then great!
(Can't really tell what it sounds like with that electric guitar though.)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2018 5:04:32
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

quote:

All that matters to me is sound. If he can make both of those techniques sound like proper picado or alzapua and he's more comfortable like that, then great!
(Can't really tell what it sounds like with that electric guitar though.)

True dat. Go to sleep Piwin, ya muy tarde en Madrid guey!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2018 5:34:32
 
Piwin

Posts: 3316
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RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to Leñador



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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2018 5:45:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13063
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

Ben comes from electric guitar school like myself...hence the flamenco and metal guitar fusions he creates, and rather brilliant and unique I might add. So alternate picking is a natural thing he developed as a young guy and now can easily fall back on. I used to do the same for a long time....I hang on to my old picking tech for rumba improvisations for example. The alzapua thing I talked about with ToddK years ago because he used to play a hybrid style with pick, although with different mechanics than Ben here or myself such that he was really working hard to achieve a more traditional sound as we get with finger nails.

Anyway, over the years of developing picados and such I finally bridged that gap between what I WANTED to do with a band but couldn’t do for a long time. I dont’ think I would want to go back to that feeling of being limited without a pick as I feel more confident now with i-m. There is a video in Facebook I can’t seem to load up on youtube of Ben and I playing I am A Viking by Yngwie Malmsteed, and there is a famous run there that has some tough picking and it’s pretty much more fun to do as picado believe it or not.

Anyway, the main thing is the SOUND you want to get from the guitar, along the way personalized technique will develop and that is fine so long as you are getting the results you want.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2018 18:36:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

Ben and I lived in the same workshop/apartment building for three or four years, he lived down the hall and around the corner from my shop. It was when he was putting together his technique, I wanted to hate it, but couldn't because it sounds correct. I watched him develop different ideas, discard some, and also adopt regular flamenco technique and keep it or change it. Once he showed me this sweep picking technique he was using, but I don't think he found a use for it, for example. He was always practicing, I'm not sure how he paid the rent, probably a gigolo.

He taught himself abanico rageo by listening first and looking later. From listening to CD's and records he created a backwards abanico that begins with pinky. It goes PinkyRMI and then repeats in various ways. If you hear him play tangos for dancers it works and you'd never know unless you watched. Soon after he moved to the bay area he learned a performed the Habichuela siguiriya 'Amanacer' note for note, with his backwards abanico. Why argue after that?

His technique is personal, he's an autodidact, adopting his way might work, but mileage will vary.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 21 2018 0:02:57
 
rombsix

Posts: 7585
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

From listening to CD's and records he created a backwards abanico that begins with pinky. It goes PinkyRMI and then repeats in various ways.


I think you got his "backwards" abanico backwards.

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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 21 2018 2:22:21
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

Right, see I can't conceive of imap imap imap

So my brain rejected it. I'm pinkami pinkami, crazy backwards.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 21 2018 6:25:02
 
rombsix

Posts: 7585
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Right, see I can't conceive of imap imap imap

So my brain rejected it. I'm pinkami pinkami, crazy backwards.




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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 21 2018 19:00:05
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1360
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

There is a video in Facebook I can’t seem to load up on youtube of Ben and I playing I am A Viking by Yngwie Malmsteed


Ben playing it solo:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2018 2:06:02
 
sim999

 

Posts: 73
Joined: Aug. 18 2011
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

Interesting stuff by ben. Like many I also played electric guitar before flamenco.
I was a blues-rock guy and then a metalhead :). Picado was one on the first technique that I naturally worked on
and I was not so bad at it but unlike Ricardo I was never completely satisfied with my level. But apart from rumba you don't need to "develop" lead lines in flamenco.

quote:


Anyway, over the years of developing picados and such I finally bridged that gap between what I WANTED to do with a band but couldn’t do for a long time. I dont’ think I would want to go back to that feeling of being limited without a pick as I feel more confident now with i-m


I think that picado has a better sound on a nylon string instrument but for me (just my opinion) it is not very well suited for single lines like a pick. Picado is mostly used to end phrases in palos other than rumbas. One of the problem of picado that I find very hard to overcome is crossing strings and developping long lines without behind "trapped" in 3 notes per strings (it is also a trap with a pick : think al di meola).

Guys like Django, Bireli (on a good day), benson, mike stern or modern fusion guitarist etc can play "angular" lines (sometimes coming from listening to horn players who most of the times are WAY more interesting than guitarists when it comes to soloing) that would be very difficult to do without a pick I think (just take a line at 130 bpm (medium speed) covering 10 measures => you cant do that with picado).

A pick is more versatile when it comes to lead lines. Electric guitar is like a violin in this aspect.

That was my two cents.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2018 11:23:30
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

quote:

Guys like Django, Bireli (on a good day), benson, mike stern or modern fusion guitarist etc can play "angular" lines (sometimes coming from listening to horn players who most of the times are WAY more interesting than guitarists when it comes to soloing) that would be very difficult to do without a pick I think (just take a line at 130 bpm (medium speed) covering 10 measures => you cant do that with picado).


I agree horn players are more interesting soloists overall, but I've seen Nino de Pura rip a whole copla por fandangos with picado like he was drinking a glass of water.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2018 12:25:58
 
sim999

 

Posts: 73
Joined: Aug. 18 2011
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to estebanana

Yeah there is a video of nino doing this in a pena at the end of fandangos which is mind blowing technically I will give you that.

But I'm sure he has repeated hundred of times this line (like a good old 80s shredder would have done (nothing wrong with that) or something close and it is a descending scale typically flamenco what I'm talking about is something different.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2018 12:49:10
 
JasonM

Posts: 1725
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

Lol I need to use one of those guitars for dance class. Whenever students timing goes off I will stomp the overdrive pedal.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2018 16:14:02
 
kitarist

Posts: 1342
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to sim999

quote:

ORIGINAL: sim999
[...] lines that would be very difficult to do without a pick I think (just take a line at 130 bpm (medium speed) covering 10 measures => you cant do that with picado).


130 bpm 4 notes per click? That's not difficult, never mind impossible, regardless of how many measures it goes on for and how many strings crossings there are. Or do you mean 6 or more notes per click at that tempo?

I do agree that past a certain RH speed the issues are likely to be string crossings and LH-RH synchronicity - something picado and pick playing share. Raw single-string RH speed (where pick playing can have a speed advantage perhaps) is not that interesting as an argument.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2018 16:15:18
 
Mark2

Posts: 1661
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

I think it's a very honest explanation of the challenge some pick players have with picado, especially relate able to those of us who started with flamenco after years of pick playing. It's also his solution for making it work in a professional situation. I have been there, in that sometimes I was required to execute a line at a speed that was beyond my ability. That really didn't happen to me as a pick player, but it was extremely frustrating when I ran up against my picado limit.

I can remember thinking, you have to be able to play this line, and if you can't, you are out of business. It led to a lot of stress, and lot of straining that probably made my picado technique even worse. Thinking back on my life as an electric guitar player, you were simply expected to play the part. That is the reality for musicians, especially when you are being paid to support someone, and really the standard for playing professionally. If you can't play the part, you are out of there.

Given that Ben is a pro guitarist, he's in that boat and had to figure out how to make it happen. I don't care for his solutions in that I'm not going to start practicing them, but I'm also not in a position at this point in my life where I'd lose work if I wasn't able to execute a run at a given speed. Otherwise, I'd be giving his picado work around a try. Kudos to him for figuring out how to cut the gig.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2018 20:56:35
 
Lorenzo714

Posts: 76
Joined: Oct. 8 2013
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

I saw this post yesterday and couldn't resist posting this video from a few years back from my old guitar teacher Juan Serrano. He also uses a backwards rasqueado :)



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2018 23:38:42
 
rombsix

Posts: 7585
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to Lorenzo714

Olé!

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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2018 23:52:47
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Alternative Techniques... (in reply to rombsix

Speed kills.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2018 0:26:45
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