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Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

Ferdinand 

https://elpais.com/cultura/2018/01/05/el_toro_por_los_cuernos/1515153278_991232.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2018 17:30:42

Piwin

Posts: 2183
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Morante

Wow...the author of that article managed to stay clear of any interesting criticism of the movie. All he managed to do was insult the intelligence of his fellow human beings.
"Si no quieren ser aficionados a los toros, que no lo sean; pero que no los engañen: un toro bravo es un animal y no una persona."
Right kids, and don't forget that mice are not humans. You know, because you're so stupid I'm scared that you think actual mice can talk like Mickey Mouse... And, since it's that time of year, don't forget kids that actual logs don't sh$t presents when you sing to them... And don't buy into Art Spiegelman's lies. He would have you believe that cats are Nazis!
He's forgotten the most basic principle of fiction: willful suspension of disbelief. We go back to disbelieving as soon as the story is over, because we're not idiots and we're well aware that bulls aren't humans, that if you run at a wall in a train station you're not going to end up in a magical train to go to magician's school, and that coyotes don't know how to use TNT and don't float in mid-air for 10 seconds before falling down a cliff.
The author of this article didn't just miss the target, he missed the entire barn.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2018 18:01:38
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Piwin

quote:

"Si no quieren ser aficionados a los toros, que no lo sean; pero que no los engañen: un toro bravo es un animal y no una persona."


So it’s not wrong to torment an animal, because animals don’t count? This is exactly (what was originally meant by*) begging the question:

quote:

The fallacy of founding a conclusion on a basis that as much needs to be proved as the conclusion itself.


Fowler’s Modern English Usage, 2nd edition

Exactly the same sort of logic (or absence thereof) could be, and has been, applied to Blacks, Jews, or any other racial out-group of your choice.

*although I couldn’t say what it’s thought to mean nowadays.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2018 18:17:04
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2602
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

When I was five years old I received a copy of the original book, "Ferdinand." It must have been a present from my mother and her mother, who lived with us during World War II.

My grandmother had buried three husbands, due to illness and an accidental injury. She raised eight children on a family farm in northwestern Oklahoma. All five of her sons were in combat in the war. I had a father and two more uncles overseas, fighting the enemy. Both women were patriotic supporters of the war.

At age five I found the book fascinating: Ferdinand was presented in such a favorable light, and I was personally familiar with the aggressive character of bulls. But I didn't understand the message of pacifism. Even at that young age I could sense that the country was united in its support of the war effort, at home and overseas, as it never has been since. We boys hated the Germans and Japanese who were trying to kill our fathers and uncles. To play with the older boys I had to correctly identify all the airplane silhouettes, ours and the enemy's, in the plane spotters' deck of cards.

So "Ferdinand's" pacifist message was lost on me, just as I was unconscious of the great pre-war majority's support of isolationism and non-involvement, before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor galvanized the country to revenge.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

"Si no quieren ser aficionados a los toros, que no lo sean; pero que no los engañen: un toro bravo es un animal y no una persona."


So it’s not wrong to torment an animal, because animals don’t count? This is exactly (what was originally meant by*) begging the question:

quote:

The fallacy of founding a conclusion on a basis that as much needs to be proved as the conclusion itself.




Not being Spanish, I doubt that I share the reviewer's cultural context, be it pro- or anti-bullfight. But then I doubt that half of Spaniards do either, since a majority of younger Spaniards seem to be anti-torismo, and at least a sizable minority of older ones seem still to favor los toros.

I read the account of the film not as a lie, but as an allegory, asking the question, "How would the world be if bulls (or humans) refused to fight?"

But in reality, people fight. Children learn this on the schoolyard. Most male children and many females learn that they have to fight back.

I wonder what the reviewer thinks of John Lennon's "Imagine?"

RNJ

P.S. Thanks for the definition of "begging the question" which few seem to know these days.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2018 19:44:30
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Morante

When "Ferdinand the Bull" was first published, it was banned in both Hitler's Germany and Franco's Spain, no doubt because it sent the "wrong" message. I'll bet the author of this article/review thinks he has "Huevos Grandes" (Big Balls) because his definition of "manhood" depends upon it.

Yessir, ain't he a real "Hombre" though, ain't he just?!

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2018 20:12:19
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

This is exactly (what was originally meant by*) begging the question:

quote:

The fallacy of founding a conclusion on a basis that as much needs to be proved as the conclusion itself.


This is still the meaning of "begging the question," although few today, including many journalists, understand it. But then I don't know how many journalists I've read refer to "penultimate" as being the final, ultimate activity or event in a series, rather than the second to last, or the one preceeding the final activity or event.

I concluded long ago that so much ignorant writing today is the result of would-be journalists studying "Journalism" in universities, rather than History, Politics, Economics and English, which would prepare them far better as writers and journalists. So much writing today lacks precision.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2018 20:25:05
 
Estevan

Posts: 1845
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

But then I don't know how many journalists I've read refer to "penultimate" as being the final, ultimate activity or event in a series, rather than the second to last, or the one preceding the final activity or event.

Really?!
So if they ever did refer to something as 'ultimate', would they really mean 'preterultimate'?
All rather confusing.

quote:

I concluded long ago that so much ignorant writing today is the result of would-be journalists studying "Journalism" in universities, rather than History, Politics, Economics and English, which would prepare them far better as writers and journalists.

Indeed - not to mention Latin.

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2018 22:18:05

Piwin

Posts: 2183
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

This is exactly (what was originally meant by*) begging the question:


Interesting. I've heard it used as meaning "raise the question" or "cause to ask a question". As in: "that's a nice watch you have there. That begs the question: how on earth can you afford that kind of watch on a teacher's salary?"
I was unaware of the original meaning. It's always interesting to consider how and why the meaning of words and phrases evolve and how "mistakes" become the new "correct usage". How "decimate" came to mean "completely destroy" or how "agenda" somehow became singular.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2018 23:24:24
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Piwin

quote:

How "decimate" came to mean "completely destroy"


That one still makes me tear my hair and scream. Showing my age, I suppose.

It seems to me simply to be a malapropism for devastate.

quote:

or how "agenda" somehow became singular.


Not to mention "media" and "data".

I conjecture that people got so used to hearing “The secretary will now read the agenda”, “x needs to be put on the agenda”, etc. that they concluded the agenda was a single thing, rather than a list of items to be acted upon.

It’s always struck me as hypocritical that while descriptivists think it fine to change conventional usage to suit their purposes (“Languages change over time. Get used to it!”), they are they first to squawk if you try to change it back (by referring to a graffito or an agendum, for example), and call you an élitist (or rather, elitist).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 1:55:20
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

It’s always struck me as hypocritical that while descriptivists think it fine to change conventional usage to suit their purposes (“Languages change over time. Get used to it!”), they are they first to squawk if you try to change it back (by referring to a graffito or an agendum, for example), and call you an élitist (or rather, elitist).


I have never understood why "elitism" has taken on such a pejorative caste in American society. I tend to chalk it up to the American ideal of "egalitarianism" as being the supreme virtue, even if it hasn't been fully realized; the idea that one person is as good as another. That should be the ideal under the law, the justice system, and in terms of opportunity (as opposed to outcome), but it is a recipe for disaster when it comes to science, engineering, literature, art, music, foreign affairs, and any number of other endeavors that require specialized knowledge.

I have mentioned him in a previous post, but I believe Robert Hughes nailed it when he described himself as an "elitist."

"I am completely an elitist, in the cultural but emphatically not the social sense. I prefer the good to the bad, the articulate to the mumbling, the aesthetically developed to the merely primitive, and full to partial consciousness. I love the spectacle of skill, whether it is an expert gardener at work, or a good carpenter chopping dovetails. I don't think stupid or ill-read people are as good to be with as wise and fully literate ones. I would rather watch a great tennis player than a mediocre one."

To be called an "elitist" by the rabble whose understanding of the English language does not go beyond parroting the latest malapropism or following each other like lemmings going over the linguistic cliff should be considered a badge of honor by those who are truly and fully literate.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 15:06:40

Piwin

Posts: 2183
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

I don't know if I would think of it as being elitist as much as just wageing a losing battle. I have my own pet peeves (in French) but I do see the pathos of it, willing to go down with a ship that ultimately is of little to no significance to anyone except ourselves. My approach to language is pragmatic. What matters to me most is whether our use of language enables communication or impedes it. Given that, the only case I'd really have a problem with is when a speaker uses a term knowing that the recipient will not understand it or, worse, knowing that he will understand something different than what was intended. If you can tell the catcher is going to lean towards the left, it would be unwise to throw a pitch way off to the right and expect him to catch it. And if you threw your pitch way off to the right because you wanted the catcher to miss the ball, then it's easy to think of that being plain mean-spirited. That applies to one-on-one communication. When there are more than one recipient, as with a public speech or a book, then of course it's much more complicated than that.

The one thing where I do squawk is the tendency of certain people to try and pronounce foreign names and words according to the pronunciation in the original tongue. Not because it is elitist, but because it is bad linguistics. First, it grates the ear to bring in the sounds of another language into your own. And second, it lacks any kind of consistency. The same who find it necessary to try and mimic a hard German "r" in the name J.S Bach don't seem to have any problem calling Munich Munich and not München or pronouncing Berlin Bur-lin and not Bear-lean. That kind of inconsistency bothers me. Not to mention that those who think their pronunciation is closer to the original often get it dead wrong anyways, as I've been told is the case with the word "karate". Our Japanese experts will have to confirm, but my understanding is that the original Okinawan pronunciation is much closer to kara-tea than it is to kara-tay, which "begs the question" (sorry I couldn't resist poking a little fun! ) why they're trying to correct us in the first place.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 16:15:16
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

I have mentioned him in a previous post, but I believe Robert Hughes nailed it when he described himself as an "elitist."

"I am completely an elitist, in the cultural but emphatically not the social sense. I prefer the good to the bad, the articulate to the mumbling, the aesthetically developed to the merely primitive, and full to partial consciousness. I love the spectacle of skill, whether it is an expert gardener at work, or a good carpenter chopping dovetails. I don't think stupid or ill-read people are as good to be with as wise and fully literate ones. I would rather watch a great tennis player than a mediocre one."


I like it. Could you provide a source and a year, please? I’d like to add it to my quotations file.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 17:52:31
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Piwin

quote:

The one thing where I do squawk is the tendency of certain people to try and pronounce foreign names and words according to the pronunciation in the original tongue.


“To say a French word in the middle of an English sentence exactly as it would be said by a Frenchman in a French sentence is a feat demanding an acrobatic mouth; the muscles have to be suddenly adjusted to a performance of a different nature, and then as suddenly recalled to the normal state. It is a feat that should not be attempted. The greater its success as a tour de force, the greater its failure as a step in the conversational progress; for your collocutor, aware that he could not have done it himself, has his attention distracted whether he admires or is humiliated.”

Fowler’s Modern English Usage, 2nd edition (again)

P.S. The BBC Third Programme used to be very prone to this when announcing the names of classical composers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 18:11:36

Piwin

Posts: 2183
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

Fowler’s Modern English Usage


Thank you for the quote. It might be time for me to get my hands on that book. So far, I've favored the American Strunk and White.

BTW, would any of you learned folk have any recommendations for a typographical style guide? I've been told that the "Chicago Manual of Style" is somewhat of a standard in the US. My current job has me writing much more in English than I'm used to and, while I seem to be getting by grammar-wise, I'll admit I know very little about typographical standards in English (and the little I know I mix with French or Spanish standards...).

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 18:38:34
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Piwin

quote:

It might be time for me to get my hands on that book.


Make sure you get the edition you want; it’s now been meddled with by descriptivists.

The best, in my opinion, is the 2nd, revised by Sir Ernest Gowers, reprinted with corrections in 1983. You can get the paperback for a penny (plus postage) from Amazon UK:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fowlers-Modern-English-Usage-2nd/dp/0192813897/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515436948&sr=8-1&keywords=0192813897

Amazon France has it here:

https://www.amazon.fr/Dictionary-Modern-English-Usage/dp/0192813897/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515437694&sr=8-1&keywords=0192813897

ISBN: 0-19-281389-7 (paperback), 0-19-869115-7 (hardback)

(I have to say that some of the pronunciations given are out of date. Consult a modern dictionary for those.)

For American usage, I recommend Garner’s, which looks as if it’s modelled on Fowler’s:

https://www.amazon.fr/Garners-Modern-American-Usage-Garner/dp/0195382757/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=english-books&ie=UTF8&qid=1515437972&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=Modern+Amerecan+usage
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 18:53:13
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2602
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

The one thing where I do squawk is the tendency of certain people to try and pronounce foreign names and words according to the pronunciation in the original tongue.


“To say a French word in the middle of an English sentence exactly as it would be said by a Frenchman in a French sentence is a feat demanding an acrobatic mouth; the muscles have to be suddenly adjusted to a performance of a different nature, and then as suddenly recalled to the normal state. It is a feat that should not be attempted. The greater its success as a tour de force, the greater its failure as a step in the conversational progress; for your collocutor, aware that he could not have done it himself, has his attention distracted whether he admires or is humiliated.”

Fowler’s Modern English Usage, 2nd edition (again)

P.S. The BBC Third Programme used to be very prone to this when announcing the names of classical composers.


Traveling on business in Paris with my friend John I., he stepped back and left it to me to buy a couple of packs of Metro tickets. I cocked my head to question his tactic. John is a Luis Alvarez physics PhD. He did his post-doc at Grenoble. John speaks French fluently, though with an audible American accent. He was always nominated to make toasts and speeches for our group.

My French is quite rudimentary, serviceable only for tourist needs. John explained that he thought my accent was better than his. He pointed out that he always stood next to me, to be available in case someone replied to me in a stream of rapid fire French. But I anglicize French words while speaking English, as I was taught to do when I was a child. Then I had no idea of French pronunciation. I still don't, I just parrot a few phrases.

After I came back from three weeks in Mexico last month I said Riviera Maya to my next door neighbor. He has dived there several times and had just told me he owns property on the Caribbean coast close to the Sian Ka'an Biosphere Reserve. He didn't understand me, looked at me quizzically. I anglicized the pronunciation, and apologized for having grown up with Spanish as my second language since early childhood.

I am conscious of having given the Spanish pronunciation of the name of a city where I spent a week in November, because people have asked me to repeat it. But even when I anglicize it people still don't know what the Spanish words mean, nor where San Cristobal de las Casas is.

It's a lovely city, by the way.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 19:28:23
 
Estevan

Posts: 1845
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

That one still makes me tear my hair and scream. Showing my age, I suppose.

Here you go, Paul:

"Iconic"

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 19:52:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Piwin

I can understand the pet peeve of prounounciation of foreign words in context....however, if the thing you are explaining is supposed be REFERING to the cultural or other aspects, hence the need to use the word at all, then I disagree and think at least an honest attempt to pronounce properly in the ball park is better than not.

For example passively discussing music of Bach, or the theory of Einstein we don’t really need that pronounciation of their names because the fact these people are German is arbitrary. But if you refer to say spanish guitar techniques used execute a specific thing, a specific SOUND, then an injustice is being conveyed by saying “Rasgwado” or “compass” or “Sunny kee tee” or “Sewn eket”.....however just talking about ‘“Pack oh day LOO-cheeeuh” recordings is non harmful. What is annoying is when folks want to show you what THEY know and say “oh your music sounds just like Paco de LoooTHEEEah”, then yes it’s annoying.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 20:03:49
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Ricardo

Some sort of balance is necessary, I suppose. When I started learning classical guitar, I and all my fellow pupils thought the Tárrega piece was called LaGREEma, because the printers never bothered to put the accent on the a.

P.S. Over the years, I’ve had strange looks from people when I’ve mentioned American place-names, because I’d assumed they were pronounced the same as their namesakes. The first time I spoke of Milan, Illinois, I was told “You mean MY-lan”.

Likewise Versailles, Illinois (vər-SAYLZ), and many others.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 20:33:26
 
kitarist

Posts: 548
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I can understand the pet peeve of prounounciation of foreign words in context....however, if the thing you are explaining is supposed be REFERING to the cultural or other aspects, hence the need to use the word at all, then I disagree and think at least an honest attempt to pronounce properly in the ball park is better than not.

For example passively discussing music of Bach, or the theory of Einstein we don’t really need that pronounciation of their names because the fact these people are German is arbitrary. But if you refer to say spanish guitar techniques used execute a specific thing, a specific SOUND, then an injustice is being conveyed by saying “Rasgwado” or “compass” or “Sunny kee tee” or “Sewn eket”.....however just talking about ‘“Pack oh day LOO-cheeeuh” recordings is non harmful.


Nice argument. BTW Julian Bream's pronunciation is something like "Rasger-ado" - which is consistent with a tendency of (some?) Brits to add an "r" when there are two different vowel sounds in a sequence (like ea). I've noticed that years ago with my PhD advisor and some of his British colleagues and always wondered what that was about and how wide-spread it is. (They were not aware of doing it and gave me blank stares when I asked.)

I've noticed them do it in a sentence with ordinary English words too - say if there is an 'and' following a word ending in a vowel like 'potato'. So "potato and.." becomes "potator and..".

‘“Pack oh day LOO-cheeeuh” - he did smoke a lot..

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 21:12:20

Piwin

Posts: 2183
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

Thank you for the recommendations. Very much appreciated!

@Ricardo
I'm not sure I get the distinction you're trying to make. What's wrong with rasgwado or sunnykitty? In my defense, I come from a culture that just butchers every foreign word that's layed before it.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 21:41:52
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to kitarist

quote:

a tendency of (some?) Brits to add an "r" when there are two different vowel sounds in a sequence


In some British dialects, including mine, it requires a conscious effort not to — to avoid referring to the actress Samantha Eggar, for instance, as Samantha Reggar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 21:47:05
 
kitarist

Posts: 548
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

a tendency of (some?) Brits to add an "r" when there are two different vowel sounds in a sequence


In some British dialects, including mine, it requires a conscious effort not to — to avoid referring to the actress Samantha Eggar, for instance, as Samantha Reggar.


Interesting. Is there a specific keyword or term I can look up to find something on this? What is its history?

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 22:08:35
 
Leñador

Posts: 5228
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Morante

quote:

The first time I spoke of Milan, Illinois, I was told “You mean MY-lan”.

Likewise Versailles, Illinois (vər-SAYLZ), and many others.


I would've made the same mistake.
We get a lot of that in LA, there's a ton of Spanish names for neighborhoods and streets and some of them we "collectively decided" to pronounce the Spanish way and others we have not. You can spot a transplant pretty quickly like that.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 22:18:11
 
kitarist

Posts: 548
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
In my defense, I come from a culture that just butchers every foreign word that's layed before it.


Speaking of which, it seems like, at least historically, butchering local place names even as they are adopted has been employed as another tool to convey disrespect and insouciance. For example, there is no good reason why so many place names in Canada are anglicized butchered versions of the original first nations names; some are being changed back now and it is clear there would have been no difficulty in pronouncing the original.

Also weird is how within Canada, an officially-bilingual country, the English-speaking provinces pronounce 'Quebec' and 'Montreal' as if they have no idea how the French speakers do it. Why "Koo-eh-bek" and "MonT-real'?

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 22:33:27
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Is there a specific keyword or term I can look up to find something on this?


Intrusive R. See Linking and intrusive R on Wikipedia, but I’m afraid there’s not a great deal there.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 22:38:42
 
kitarist

Posts: 548
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Paul Magnussen

Thanks a lot!

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 22:55:00
 
Estevan

Posts: 1845
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Also weird is how within Canada, an officially-bilingual country, the English-speaking provinces pronounce 'Quebec' and 'Montreal' as if they have no idea how the French speakers do it. Why "Koo-eh-bek" and "MonT-real'?

Where do they say "Koo-eh-bek"? I've never heard that. The usual Anglo pronunciations (outside of the province of Québec) are Kebek (without the é) and Mon-tree-all. (People in England tend to say Kwebek.) That's when they're speaking English, so it's not unreasonable -see other discussion above.

Francophones say "Von-cou-VAIR" and "To-rhon-TO" because that's what works in French. Either side would/should adjust their pronunciation accordingly when they visit the other.

"Officially bilingual" refers to the country, or rather the government, not all the people in it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 22:57:59
 
kitarist

Posts: 548
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to Estevan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

quote:

Also weird is how within Canada, an officially-bilingual country, the English-speaking provinces pronounce 'Quebec' and 'Montreal' as if they have no idea how the French speakers do it. Why "Koo-eh-bek" and "MonT-real'?

Where do they say "Koo-eh-bek"? I've never heard that. The usual Anglo pronunciations (outside of the province of Québec) are Kebek (without the é) and Mon-tree-all. (People in England tend to say Kwebek.)


In British Columbia they say "Koo-eh-bek"/Kwebek and "Mon-tree-all". I guess I assumed it is like that in all English-speaking Canadian provinces.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 23:13:35

Piwin

Posts: 2183
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Ferdinand (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Also weird is how within Canada, an officially-bilingual country, the English-speaking provinces pronounce 'Quebec' and 'Montreal' as if they have no idea how the French speakers do it. Why "Koo-eh-bek" and "MonT-real'?


Neither the [e] in Québec nor the [ɔ̃] in Montréal exist in English, as far as I know so even if they got the consonants right they still wouldn't be pronouncing it à la française. My guess is that they're just pronouncing based on how an English-speaker would decipher those spellings. Qu... [kw] as in quibble, quizz, etc. and there's no reason for the t to be silent in English there.

quote:

Speaking of which, it seems like, at least historically, butchering local place names even as they are adopted has been employed as another tool to convey disrespect and insouciance. For example, there is no good reason why so many place names in Canada are anglicized butchered versions of the original first nations names; some are being changed back now and it is clear there would have been no difficulty in pronouncing the original.


I don't think I'd feel comfortable enough to support that statement, at least not across the board. There may have been cases where the use of a Europeanized name was mean to convey disrespect but on the whole I think it's just that the process of learning the many native tongues in North America was a lengthy and confusing process. Sometimes names were given only based on the European language, sometimes names were given by trying to use the native tongue but there was misunderstanding around what was meant. Add to that that no, the many languages of the First nations are not all that easy to pronounce. In some cases there were several layers that added confusion. From memory (you'd have to check, I'm really pulling this up from a dusty drawer in my mind from 15 years ago), the Lakota were called Sioux not because of the French misunderstanding what the Lakota were saying, but because of the French misunderstanding what the Ojibwe were saying about the Lakota. Because the Ojibwe had their own demonym to refer to the Lakota and they didn't seem to care whether it fit the language of the Lakota or not. Add to that that most of the European settlers were not trained linguists and I think there's plenty of room for other possibilities other than "they butchered the name out of disrespect".

If you want a real linguistic clusterf$ck where no matter what you say you're going to disrespect someone, try the Temple Mount / al-Haram esh-Sharif in Jerusalem. I just call it "the hill that shall not be named" just to play it safe. That way nobody's happy!

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"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2018 23:47:22
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