Short sustain blanca

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NorCalluthier

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016

Short sustain blanca

Hello All,

In my "Quixotic Quest" for a short sustain---hence old style---flamenca blanca, I'm tempted to use some soundboard wood that has poor test numbers. I even have some nicely vertical-grained pine shelving wood that is tempting me.

I tried making a couple of ultra-light weight instruments, but using high-test Euro spruce tops like I would normally use. The one with the 11 gram Spanish cedar bridge was bought by a classical player who plays only the classical repertoire on it! For my purposes a colossal faliure!

So, does anyone out there have any experience building such a guitar? John Park, the Canadian builder comes close to the sound that I'm talking about.

Cheers,

Brian

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2017 16:33:19

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Thick top, heavy bridge, braces parallel and under the bridge. Lot's of cross dipole action. Really good stiff wood that you leave a lot of open area between the bridge wings and the bout edges. Small glue blocks, thin sides, flattish back arch, slackness in the back, thinnish. That would be my approach. Probably low flattish fans, cut with a rooftop kind of shape. Not high thin fans. Square lower transverse brace with not much more than a glue block for a pillar on top of it. Long scale.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2017 21:37:22

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

*not a luthier but curious and annoying*

I thought a heavy bridge does increase the sustain. or do these things in combination contribute to short sustain?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2017 0:20:17

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Bridge talk is wierd, it depends on a lot of concurrent conditions in your structure.

I boil the flamenco guitar sustain issue down to a few simple things, the most basic concept I believe is to build in a way that takes the edges off of the overtone support inherent in the design. However you can get at that problem.

I don't don't think of it as less sustain, but a quality of sound and 'tempo' of the guitar itself; a mix of less overtone support and a quality of pulse that deccentuates the partials. The overtone emphasis shifts to being behind rather than out front and the result is a pulse or tempo of response that is shorter in recovery duration. It's breather and more fundamental focused.

I also think if you really break it down a great deal of what we feel as 'less sustain' turns out to be a dropping out of a lot if bulk sound from upper partials. It's somewhat of an aural illusion, but there is actual shortening of duration of the note, but I position on this that we fill in when overtones are dropped out more, we imagine that the duration is a lot shorter than it really is.

So my distilled out answer is diminish overtones and build to allow the structure to swallow them.

Right now I'm working in the opposite direction, bringing out enough overtone to make a colorful singing upper range, but not in a way that it dominates the it makes the guitar too noisy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2017 4:21:04

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

I agree on lots of cross dipole action, that tends to suck the energy out of the strings faster without much sustained output.

I think the question of reducing sustain is actually somewhat of a red herring, in my opinion where you should focus more is the initial attack of the sound and let sustain sort of take care of itself.

If you have a guitar with a really loud, strong attack it will create the illusion of less sustain because it will have a quicker dropoff from the sharp peak to the long tail. But the tail itself might be just as long. Then when you get a really good/strong player who brings out the attack even more, especially if they play the guitar in a noisy room or for accompaniment, it will sound like the guitar has zero sustain.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2017 15:33:30

etta

Posts: 341
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Andy C. is on to it; with lots of clarity, note separation, sustain does not seem to be an issue. Do we want really nice sounding guitars, or drums? We can have both percussion and clarity with well built guitars?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2017 18:14:43

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

That's what I said by way of explaining that it's an illusion

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2017 19:02:32

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

just wanted to say thank you to stephen for his detailed response, just so you know your effort is much appreciated (referring to your ghosting thread)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2017 22:48:29

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Without your thanks I could not sustain this.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2017 4:11:09

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

yeah i know, that's why i'm extra generous with my thank you's. plus it's christmas time, so

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2017 12:44:59

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

I have found that denser wood, such as some mahogany, in the neck and/or heel block leads to greater sustain. So, conversely, I would suggest using very light wood, such as some Cedro, for the neck and heel bock to get less sustain.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2017 17:09:27

mqbernardo

Posts: 47
Joined: Mar. 26 2012

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

well, my last guitar was a blanca. i tried to do it by the book. light top, low top dome, parallel struts, no closing bars, spaced peones gluing the top to the rim, 1.8 mm cypress sides, no side struts, light 3 braces 2.2 mm back, light cedro neck. i did use geared tuners but the guitar ended up weighting 1250 grams overall. bridge was 6 mm high at the front, wings were 3 mm high, bridge weighted 12.5 grams.

last week i had a local conservatory teacher trying that guitar (the only one i had available) and he complemented its "singing trebles and concert classical sound, with lots of sustain". go figure. the guitar does have a sweet character and doesn't´t sound too flamenco to me, but it was only my 2nd flamenca and i´m far from schooled in the subject. sustain is ok i guess.

so, to your question, i have no idea. i´d suspect light construction, light sides, responsive back, low and light bridge (low impedance) would get me there.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2017 0:18:02

mqbernardo

Posts: 47
Joined: Mar. 26 2012

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

I think the question of reducing sustain is actually somewhat of a red herring, in my opinion where you should focus more is the initial attack of the sound and let sustain sort of take care of itself.

Hi Andy, doesn't´that beg the question: how do you get more initial attack then? isn´t a high and fast attack commensurate with lower inertia in the system, thus also faster drop of the sound?
no trick question, i´m just thinking out loud and could use help :)

thanks,
Miguel.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2017 0:25:32

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to mqbernardo)

quote:

isn´t a high and fast attack commensurate with lower inertia in the system, thus also faster drop of the sound?

If you don't mind me butting in I have discovered a technique that gives fast attack and lingering sustain to a degree that doesn't over-ride the initial pulsation. Volume/brightness is another technique that is achieved by strut to top mass. But the lingering sustain doesn't hurt the volume or initial attack of the strings/sound.

In other words there can be loads of volume with the top pumping air with certain sound decay but lingering vibration that enhances tonal out-put.

Paulino Bernabe was famous for this only to have too much out-put for some of the musical pieces played. I remember hearing one of his guitars that nearly blasted the Cantaor out of his seat, in one concert that I attended.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2017 0:04:40

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

The thing is, the thing thats being said over and over in different ways is that the guitar has a sweet spot in it's feel under the right hand. If that feel is correct to play flamenco, then the sustain, or decay of the attack will be right, it will sort itself out.

You could distill that one even farther, if the golpe sound is really good, the guitar will work for flamenco. Contrary to what people think, the flamenco guitar is in fact a drum. Classical guitars are fancy and pretend not to be drums, they are pretentious oafs in splendid rosewood clothes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2017 0:38:10

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to mqbernardo)

quote:

Hi Andy, doesn't´that beg the question: how do you get more initial attack then? isn´t a high and fast attack commensurate with lower inertia in the system, thus also faster drop of the sound?
no trick question, i´m just thinking out loud and could use help :)

I think that's right. Most of the conventional wisdom works well if you find a way to apply it right: light weight, light/low bridge, relatively thin top, not over braced, etc. etc.
You just have to keep building and gain experience enough that you know how to pull the magic out of whatever design you're using. No short cuts to making great guitars unfortunately.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2017 20:37:17

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Conde' design, in general just generally speaking, is in friction with the received wisdom of thin, thin, thin- and I know everyone thinks I hate them, I don't. They just look annoying because the company sello propio got out of control and they use weird ass colors on them. The orange color really is a 'sell 'O propio..

But have a good look at the bridges on good especially older Conde' work. The bridge can have a very high domed wing profile. And a very wide tie block. The bridge is muscular or robust compared to the concept of the ultra light bridge, which is also not exactly historical when looking at mid century work that is held as the iconic, or ' Ur Form' of flamenco. Santos, Barbero, de la Chica, and many others are not really hyper light bridges.

I'm not saying this to be contrary, but there's something to the influence of the New non Spanish styles of building that have filtered into received wisdom of today. One of those tenets of if you will Post-Spanish school is the hyper light bridge. In my opinion based on direct observation and received wisdom of repairers who worked in the 50- and 60's -

Conde' work often has thicker tops, by a margin of tenths of mm, yet slightly more robust. And there's a relationship to the typically long scales used on older ones to a more robust bridge and top.

What I'm tilting at is that the quality we look at and call 'short sustain' is also relative to different systems of making, and subject to nuance according to the robustness of the design. The gracile path meaning the light and thin thin, thin, thinking can produce guitars that have considerable "sustain" and yet are fragile shells. I go on the idea that calming the overtone series to be less present produces ......anyway ........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2017 22:45:03

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Condes are still something of a mystery to me, the modern ones at least. They seem overbuilt and the sound they get can be a little boxy or tinny but the sound is very dry, clean and separated, more emphasis on the fundamental. So maybe that is the way to go for cutting "sustain". You can't argue with the Spanish pros. But I know they have consistency issues.

I just try to let my ear guide me to a sound I like and I don't worry too much about sustain, but what do I know. There are a lot of people out there who don't like the Conde sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2017 23:06:03

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

There are Conde and Conde though.
I own a ‘64 and a ‘81 Conde which are very different from the recent ones and I can tell you that ‘81 is very well made and for definite with thin plates. For sure better than a Barba and a Montero and a Gerundino which I compared it with.

I don’t blame those who criticise Conde though as I used to be among them. I’m still very critical with some marketing practices the brand is famous for.
The thing is that the most of the Conde you see around have nothing to do with the old style guitars.
There are good ones also among the new guitars but my belief is that you need to have some choice to pick the good one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2017 23:29:04

Morante

Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to Echi)

quote:

For sure better than a Barba and a Montero and a Gerundino which I compared it with.

We have just compared 3 guitarras in the taller of Fernando Hermina. Oscar Lago, a good professional, played all three, while Fernando looked inside. One was a Conde from Felipe V, selected by top tocaores (one of whom was the sobrino de PDL) and bought second hand, other was a Mellero ( San Fernando), the guitar which El Niño de los Rizos took to U.S when he was contracted by Caracol, the third a Gerundino.

The Conde was discarded as being sorda and poorly adjusted, the Mellero was considered a great guitar, being from 1979 with original palos de palo santo. It had great trebles: perhaps new strings would have helped the bordones. The Gerundino wiped out the Conde and was better overall than the Mellero.

Opiniones of a professional tocaor and a professional guitarro.

Fernando has on order one of these magnetic thickness measuring devices. When it arrives, we shall do a study of the construction of all three guitars.

I would bet that very few guitarists look inside a guitar before buying it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2017 15:13:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

It’s mostly in the fingers. Gerardo makes his dry no-sustaining orange painted “factory” conde ring out like a piano with pedal on sometimes....Manolo Sanlucar makes his large beefy cedar top classical Ramirez sound short dry, almost metallic attackwise and dead sustainwise with crisp rasgueados (I mean since Tauromagia, that guitar was stolen). Then you got Tomatito vs Vicente on basically the exact same instrument (multiple Reyes) with world apart different sound results, one syrupy sweet and sustaining, the other dry as a bone even with reverb.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2017 17:23:01

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Gerardo as Pepe Habichuela or his brother Juan, play old Conde. Few in common with the Felipe V from 1993 on.
When I listen the flamenco de Huelva played by Pepe Habichuela, I can clearly feel a softness in the attack (and the lower pulsacion) which is common to the old Condes and absent in the new ones.
The thing is that the Conde guitars from the ‘70 and ‘80 were built with a low pitched box, with the result of a softer attack l, deeper basses and more overtones.
Later on Mariano opted for a stiffer bracing (to reach a stiffer pulsacion?) - adding the 2 long struts passing through the main transverse bar - and eventually increased also the thickness of the top.
As a result, the guitar became stiffer and air of the box became pitched at a higher freq. This way the note is big and thick but you loose many things as well.
In the meantime they had a complete restyling (new rosettes etc) and abandoned the old nitro finish.
It’s just a different beast. Manuel Valencia or the first Diego del Morao used to play with a modern Conde while Tomatito Gerardo etc, with old ones.

I had a ‘98 and a 82 Gerundino and a couple of guitars branded Eladio for years. I was a big fan of that sound and still have the ‘82 (which needs repair btw) great guitar, but I find better my ‘81 Conde.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2017 20:11:19

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to Echi)

quote:

Gerardo as Pepe Habichuela or his brother Juan, play old Conde. Few in common with the Felipe V from 1993 on.

Pepe sure, Gerardo no. He mainly used a 95 Felipe V and an Atocha 99 for most of his career. And those two guitars are what I was referring to. The 95 was used to record Calima and Andando Del Tiemp, Carmen Linares, etc, he started to retire it in 2006 or so in favor of the Atocha guitar. Now a days since his injury he uses more the Marvi guitar. Of course I know when he was young he used old Condes for his first two albums (not the greatest fidelity), and the bright orange one from Gravina for Jucal and Indio Gitano (these two had a great sound, though I suspect that guitar was not made by Faustino, ie it was outsourced as well). For the record I got to play his 95 and Atocha and the Marvi several times. The 95 is no different in anyway to my Felipe V condes.

And for the record my 73 sobrinos is pitched at A, has the long straight parallel braces up to the sound hole, and pretty thick top, and is hard to distinguish from the Felipe V in terms of sound. The neck is a little different but that is all that is really noticeable, meaning the similarities out weigh the differences.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2017 22:04:04

Morante

Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

It’s mostly in the fingers

Ricardo is right. Guitars are not as important as the player. Any guitar can be made to sound well in the studio. So at the end of the day the guitar is only important to the player.

I don´t know why they are such an important topic here: we should be more interested in the music they can make.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2017 22:38:22

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

@Morante
Of course the musicians make the difference. I like guitars and lutherie; even too much as for sure I should play/study more and pay less attention to guitars and gear, but this is just me.
@ Ricardo.
In 70 years of business, the Conde brothers have changed many things and many different guitars came out from the shop of Gravina. In the case of Conde, many hands were involved and still there is a certain unpredictability about guitars of the same era.
Anyway the Conde guitars with low pitch I was referring to, are those from the last seventies and the beginning of the eighties. These are those I like most, while I’m not crazy for the dull, dry Madrid sound of the previous epoca, still inspired by Barbero.
You know for sure better than me the guitars of Gerardo. I’m more familiar with his first works.

I’m not familiar instead with your old Conde. Mine from ‘64 is completely different from a new Felipe V. though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2017 22:59:23

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Thanks Ricardo for steering us back to reality. The players hands, the players hands. It is important to talk about the idea of absolute decay duration. Some guitars are more present with longer decay and some not. The player really makes the decay change in the most interesting and nuanced ways, but as makers there is an envelope of decay duration we play with too.

And the downer side of it is that it is also pinned to the greater weird narrative that exists in the guitar world that 'Classical' means longer decay and 'Flamenco' means shorter decay. It's something in the belief system of most buyers today and not paying attention to this is a bad idea for your work . I've watched this happen over and over; a seasoned professional unbaised 'classical' guitarist will pick up a flamenco guitar and play for example Bach or Weiss and make it sound ..well ..classical. Then praise the guitar and mumble, maybe I should be playing these cypress guitars. Players with less experience will take up the same challenge and will get hung up on Cypress vs Rosewood. It's what we live with at this time and hopefully it will eventually change.

For me, I build what comes naturally to me, don't try to any great extent to dominate or be overly willful on the sound. I think directing the sound beyond what is natural to you makes guitars that seem forced. The builders problem is that we have all these consumer perceptions to deal with in an age where everyone can be an expert in a few days of reading on the internet. So take any conversation about decay and how to achieve control over it with a couple of salty fingers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2017 1:01:29

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Good axes do spoil.

# Most relevant is the player.
# In many takes special quality of an instrument won´t come through anyway.
# Even the best sound won´t help much if the music ain´t fine either.

All reasonable insights.

And I have bragged with it before: There have been folks enthusiastically grabbing cheapo guitars, after I had put them back on shop´s stand, only to find out that the instruments had 'transformed back' into entry level Cinderellas.

But times when I thought that a decent estudio could serve me well for the rest of life, have passed.
It is not that I couldn´t anymore appreciate beauty hidden even in average wall hanging guitars, nor that me couldn´t get along if there was nothing better to play with. -Even to the end of my days, if must be.

For, after all it is still something what the genius structure of even humble specimens can do.

However, fine guitars are worlds apart from that.
And once you´re used to that immediacy, clarity and complexity, you find yourself putting mediocre axes aside quickly.

Because they do spoil you; those pieces of art among instruments.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2017 6:39:03

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to Ruphus)

The TLDR:

Ricardo: it's the player not the guitar
Banana: thick top and bridge, straight braces Edit: it's all in your head man!
Tom: it's MY secret!
Andy: all in the attack
Morante: I don't know but Gerundino is the greatest
Connde: Tune to A not G/F# and wing it.
Anders: no comment

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2018 19:25:53

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

For banana also say 'illusion'

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2018 23:39:04

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Short sustain blanca (in reply to NorCalluthier)

Try thinning the centre more than the edges of the sound board. That worked well with my last guitar. I think it was an idea that Tom put forward a while ago. I went about .2 to .3 thinner if that helps

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 3 2018 14:49:06