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Toros
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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 RE: Toros (in reply to Morante)
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Either my computer is playing tricks on me again
or you forgot the video 
edit: no problem. I can see it now!
The corrales del Batan in Madrid are completely out of use now. It's overgrown with grass and looks all but abandoned. The site still hosts a school, so every now and again I'll see the kids practicing in the surrounding park, one running around with a pair of horns while the others practice their thing, but I haven't seen a bull anywhere near there in the few years I've been here. On weekends the parking lot in front of the corrales fills up. Even a few "gorilas" show up, which is fairly rare in Madrid. But they're only there to go to the nearby amusement parc. At most, they'll glance at the corrales but that's it. During the week, hardly anybody stops there. There's always the odd car parked in the far corner under the trees near the corrales, no doubt customers of the few African hookers who work there (segregation in prostitution apparently: all the Spanish girls stay a few hundred meters away up near the zoo, which is also a gay pick-up spot, which I found out the hard way one day when I was changing next to my car before going for a run...).
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Date Dec. 16 2017 13:56:02
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Toros (in reply to rayian)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rayian
quote:
if you have a closed mind, do not open this video.
I don't get it. Does this mean that if I have an open mind I would accept bullfighting as a reasonable idea that should be embraced?
No.
What Morante means is to be open for being provoked and then pierced in neck and upper body with swords until you suffocate from your own blood. No big deal, really, but pleasure gain for humans with a trivial self-image that takes perfidy and cruelty against thirds first, for to appreciate own intact being.
Close-minded on the other hand pussies who would scream already when touched with a knitting needle; something a true hermanos would never do. At least not for as long as the stabbing occurs to someone else.
Quite like with real titans who rock out of boxing venues after having cheered, waved and whistled at thirds who take the punches.
They have no clue of what balls it takes to separate opponents, nor as to why one could be interfering at all instead of peeping. The latter taking empathical skills which again tend to come with intellect. Both of which command efforts.
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Being a pussy myself and too exhausted since many years for to watch ogre happenings, me notwithstandingly came to see a documentary recently in which remaining of cattle and sheep was shown which is being exported from Europe to oriental sphere that once inspired corrales spectacles.
Cows taken by cranes at their horns or single legs, with horns breaking off / the animals dropping from around 10 m height, joints separating etc. Smashed and dying from thirst and pain they get trucked to slaughter houses. There crowds of sadistic psychopaths are waiting who get a kick from working themselves off in ways that you have not seen yet. And that routinely which each delivery. They beat and stab with iron poles, then cut the leg tendons so that voluntarily the animals can´t walk anymore, which again gives the torturers another kick and reason to work up into a frenzy and make the creatures move forward on whatever way. Now they stab out the eyes, kick them in the faces full whack and terrify the screaming crawling creatures one by one into desired direction.
In the meantime hordes of children have gathered, enjoying the hours long manly hood of grown-ups and learning how to become future heroes themselves.
Manly hood at expense of exposed and defenseless is what defines a real valiant.
To hell in the meantime with psychology that states how simple minds are channeling inferiority complex. How they are especially provoked by physical superiority (cattle), exposed being (sheep / intimated dogs) or elegance (cats).
One single cows path, originating from a German breeder and family business whose dealings show by the confidingness of their superb and cute looking cattle, was tracked by the TV crew. And they showed a video to the family of how their cow ended up in Libanon (or Egypt, don´t remember exactly). The people were utterly devastated and depressed.
No life stock (nor pets) must be delivered to the Middle East and Asia anymore. No one should care about their desire to ensure cruel religious slaughtering, nor expose dogs or cats or any other creature to such realm.
Culture shows in dealing with each other and with fellow creature.
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Date Dec. 17 2017 8:43:18
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Toros (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
The blues survived without slavery too. And in fact even pretty well
Blues coalesced into a musical genre after the abolition of slavery in the US. Hard to argue that it survived something it wasn't even around yet to witness... The work songs and field hollers of slaves definitely fed into blues, but they're rightly considered different genres. The same way we distinguish negro-spirituals from gospel music, ante- and post-bellum music as I understand it. Since music is the product of human beings, it's hard to imagine how it wouldn't change with these cultural shifts. Change the people, change the music.
And so with flamenco. The people are changing, and so is the music. Rito y Geografia type of flamenco is soon to be something of the past. That culture is dying. Every time the name of one of the older cantaores shows up in the obituary section of the newspaper, it's like witnessing the disappearance of a language, one speaker at a time. And some of the things I've heard Morante say about what he's tried to do are very similar to what linguists do when a language is disappearing. If you know it's going extinct, then all you can do is try to document it, keep a record of it for the memory of humankind. Maybe we'll keep the name "flamenco" but it's hard to underestimate how big a change has occured. And those who are attached to that culture are entitled to mourn its disappearance.
But I'm like you, a cherry-picker. There's a very strong religious underlay in certain gipsy communities and here they are being steamrolled by American-style evangelism. But whether it's the more traditional forms of Catholicism or this new brand of Protestantism, I don't adhere to either. I'm on the fence about corrida, tending to be against it but probably with a more open mind than many who are against just out of principle but have never taken a close look at the practice (omnivores like me don't really have much of a leg to stand on when we say we're against it...). I've had drawn-out discussions with ganaderos and with a few people from the nearby school who hang out at the same bars I do. It's hard to overstate the reverence they have for bulls (and in an equal measure for horses). The point being that it's unfair to dismiss the whole thing as just a horrible practice, only in terms of animal welfare, without considering everything else it involves, and too many people are quick to doing just that.
So basically I disagree with you that flamenco will survive without the underlying culture. A simple experiment is to go to a torino bar and then go to a vegan bar. Look at the people there and tell me which will make flamenco worth a salt... Maybe the senoritos at the vegan bar will make flamenco, but nobody from the torino bar would recognize it as such. It would just be too different. That kind of flamenco is gasping for its last few breaths before it passes on. So goes it. I'm not much for the "old-school" vs. "modern" flamenco debate, not much for voicing an opinion on whether one is better than the other. But I can remain neutral about that and still observe that one is dying out, and those who held to that kind of flamenco are very fearful that the essence of their art got completely lost in the shuffle.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Dec. 17 2017 14:03:09
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Toros (in reply to Piwin)
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I get it .. Lots get it ....Lots dont get it ... if you live in Andalucia , you will be involved in the world of Toros eventually ,, more or less,, depends on yourself ...
Some dont like it , especially those from outside .. and they ask ..if this is
¿tradición o maltrato?
Its been going for centuries and the main toreros are like what here is the Football stars , However popular , traditional and even family run it is it naturally is dying away a bit anyway , without doing anything, each year now less young people want to do it .. “Los niños ya no quieren ser toreros”
Yet to watch it , it can still be full in the stadium ... and its open to all ages ...
Remember , as in all things , money moves things along , and the Plaza del Toros is still big money ...all the way down the line ,,
they need grow the right Bulls , training , publicity , transport , ambulances , food drink ... big list here ...
It also depends on if they get government support or not , at a local level.
However . el toro y el torero nunca han luchado en igualdad de condiciones..
Its just a part of life depending on where you live , . to not have it . even if you dont want it , would be ..different ...
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Date Dec. 17 2017 16:21:27
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Toros (in reply to Ruphus)
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Yes Ruphus, even them.
You're in a position where you're condemning basically every single human being who came before you because noone in the past can stand the scrutiny of contemporary morality. And I sure as hell hope that this development of morality continues well into the future. In other words, I hope that my descendants will be far more moral than I ever was, that they will discover and solve moral issues that I had never even thought of because the time and society I lived in hadn't reached a point yet to make those questions accessible. I hope that we will continue to develop so that they are in a position to condemn me. If they can condemn me, that just means we've gotten better. And isn't that what we want? For things to get better?
And yet, I also hope they will see that, even though I inevitably failed to meet their own future standards, I did the best with what was available to me. I empathize with my predecessors just as I hope future generations will empathize with me.
Yours is a position where each generation is alone on the top, separating themselves from and condemning everyone else before them. My position is one of kinship with those that came before and those that will come after. Because you know what, the moral issue that we will be seen as being appallingly guilty of by future generations is something we haven't even thought of yet. We're all so certain is animal welfare or environmental issues but we simply have no way of knowing what we'll be judged on. If we continue in the right direction, there will come a day where current medical treatments will seem as arcane and barbaric as blood-letting seems to us. Whatever the moral issue is, we most likely don't even know we're doing it/not doing it. Who knows what unimaginable pain and suffering you are causing to someone/something completely unbeknownst to you. If your reaction to past generations is just "how on earth could they have missed those obvious signs?", then don't be surprised that future generations will treat you exactly the same, and there's no doubt in my mind that we have all already failed to meet their future standards of morality.
That's not to say you should act like what they did was right by your own standards. Of course not.
@rayian I think we more or less agree. It's like you said: "the result of those choices will bring in a new culture".
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Dec. 17 2017 17:09:13
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Toros (in reply to Morante)
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Long before I had seen my first corrida I had read Ernest Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon," which, in my opinion, is still the finest narrative explanation and historical record of the meaning and great names associated with the "art" and "ritual" in Spain (at least up to the time it was published). I appreciate what the corrida means to the Spaniard, but one must recognize that although matadors must indeed be brave, there is much more to the ballet taking place than just the brave matador facing the bull.
Before the matador even faces the bull, the picador on horseback has greatly weakened the bull by lancing the neck muscles. And the Bandarillas have further weakened the bull by placing their smaller lances in his neck. In other words, the matador is not facing a bull with full strength. Now that's something that would really take courage. Instead, he faces a bull that has been deliberately weakened to give the matador a much greater edge. With this in mind, one can conclude that the matador may not be as brave as he appears to be.
Although it is a ritual, the corrida is as sadistic a piece of entertainment as were the gladiatorial contests in Rome, or bear baiting, or cock fighting and dog fighting are today. Any endeavor, whether it is considered "ritual" or not, that depends on taunting and tormenting animals and resulting in their death, cannot be considered civilized entertainment in today's more enlightened world.
The corrida was banned in Catalonia by a vote of the Catalan Parliament in July 2010. The ban came into effect on 1 January 2012. The last bullfight in the region took place in Barcelona in September 2011. The Catalans are ahead of their other Spanish compatriots in recognizing that the practice has no place in civilized society today.
I expect that the corrida will eventually die out (albeit over a long period of time) in the rest of Spain. Ironically, like the Spanish language as it was spoken in an earlier era, the corrida may continue to be found in Spain's New World ex-colonies such as Colombia long after it has died out in Spain. Although my guess is it will die out in Mexico before Colombia, at some point in the distant future it probably will be banned everywhere.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 17 2017 17:42:11
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Toros (in reply to Piwin)
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The death of cattle in the U.S. cattle industry is not deliberately "concealed" from the public. Moreover, cattle are killed as quickly as possible in order to avoid suffering and for efficiency, and the ultimate purpose is to provide food.
To provide food for a population is the purpose of the beef industry. That is a far cry from the Corrida, which is to provide "entertainment" for the public. And the "entertainment" the Corrida provides is accomplished by weakening the poor beast so as to give the matador an edge, as I noted above. There is no comparison between the U.S. cattle industry and the Corrida, neither in terms of raison d'etre nor how the process is carried out.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 17 2017 20:01:57
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Toros (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Admittedly I'm playing devil's advocate, since I'm not much of a corrida lover.
I'm just passing on arguments I've heard from aficionados.
I would disagree however that what goes on in slaughterhouses isn't intentionally concealed from the public. Ever since slaughterhouses and markets were moved out of city centers, there's been an ever increasing disconnect between the consumer's idea of meat and the reality of what goes on. In today's climate, it's really not in the interest of the meat industry to shine a spotlight on what goes on in slaughterhouses (it does seem notoriously difficult to obtain legal footage inside a slaughterhouse these days). Western consumers just aren't equipped anymore to look their meat in the eyes and kill it. (oh and I said US just because I was answering your post, but of course it applies to any form of factory farming anywhere).
so, amongst these arguments I've heard, here are a few:
- the "purpose argument" is a red herring, since toro de lidia is eaten, and is in fact considered to be some of the most "organic" meat out there. Although I agree that it looks like a pretty sly manœuvre, an aficionado can very well turn the optics of corrida on its head and say that the purpose is consumption, just with a smart monetization scheme around the actual slaughtering. They're celebrating the life and death that feeds them.
- those who are against corrida always point out that that cattle for human consumption dies faster on the day it dies, that it suffers less at that moment of death. Leaving out all the scandals that come out all the time showing the discrepancy between how things theoretically work in a slaughterhouse and how they actually work, we could just notice that the anti-corrida always leave out everything that happens before the animal's death. Toro de lidia are reared in semi-wilderness, in outstanding living conditions compared to what is reserved for most of our cattle for consumption. It's built into the system. After all, the ganadero's honor and pride is at stake if he doesn't provide a bull that is in perfect health (and you can really tell the difference. Toro de lidia tastes more like wild game than regular beef). If our issue is animal welfare, then it is not enough to focus only on how the animal is put to death. One must consider how the animal is treated from birth all the way up to its death. And when you factor that in, the balance shifts pretty clearly to the side of the ganaderos de lidia.
All I can say is that conversing with aficionados is a risky business. They're used to arguing this stuff and they have some pretty solid points. Oftentimes they force us to reconsider our own position if we are "omnivores" against corrida. Beware talking with aficionados, they just might make you go vegan! 
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Dec. 17 2017 20:37:37
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Toros (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
- the "purpose argument" is a red herring, since toro de lidia is eaten, and is in fact considered to be some of the most "organic" meat out there. Although I agree that it looks like a pretty sly manœuvre, an aficionado can very well turn the optics of corrida on its head and say that the purpose is consumption, just with a smart monetization scheme around the actual slaughtering. They're celebrating the life and death that feeds them.
I realize that you are channeling the argument of the "aficionado" of the Corrida, Piwin. Nevertheless, it would be easy to debate the "purpose" argument with the aficionado. His argument, as you state it above, that the "purpose is consumption," is the red herring. The purpose of the Corrida is clearly cultural in nature. That the Toro is taken away and eaten after being killed in the Corrida is secondary. The Corrida itself, with all of its pomp, "excitement," and cultural significance, so well stated by Morante over the years, is its own justification. I'm afraid the aficionado would lose the debate to a high school sophomore if he persisted in that argument.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 17 2017 21:01:17
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Toros (in reply to Piwin)
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For insight into the culture which supported the last great era of popularity for the corrida, you might try the extended and detailed biography "Or I'll Dress You in Mourning," of the famous matador Manuel Benitez Perez "El Cordobes."
The book details the long and painful escape of Benitiez from oppression, prejudice, and not just hunger, but starvation. El Cordobes was one of hundreds, perhaps thousands of young men who walked from village to village, hoping for a chance to perform in the makeshift corridas of village fiestas to make a little money, in hopes of finding a way out of the beastly life of the landless peasant.
The occasional hour of cruelty to a bull was the direct result of centuries of cruelty to millions of humans. So was cante.
We condemn cruelty to the bull, as I for one believe we should, but we tend not to dwell on what produced the likes of Agujetas--who narrowly avoided starvation by singing for bread crusts as a boy at the restaurant tables of the prosperous.
RNJ
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Date Dec. 17 2017 21:47:50
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