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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3523
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

Picado-cross early or late? 

Yeah, a picado post!

Most scale runs have an awkward crossing, where i has to reach up or m has to reach down. It usually tends to be the hardest part of the run for that reason. By varying whether you start on i or m, that crossing will be in a different place. How do you choose where to put it?

I seem to like to finger the crossing late, but I wonder if that's such a good idea. Yes, you get the speed and rhythm going fast, but you also leave the hardest part at the end, where you might not be paying as much attention.

Anyone have any insights into how the best guitarists do this?

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2017 16:43:55
 
kitarist

Posts: 556
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Yeah, a picado post!

Most scale runs have an awkward crossing, where i has to reach up or m has to reach down. It usually tends to be the hardest part of the run for that reason. By varying whether you start on i or m, that crossing will be in a different place. How do you choose where to put it?

I seem to like to finger the crossing late, but I wonder if that's such a good idea. Yes, you get the speed and rhythm going fast, but you also leave the hardest part at the end, where you might not be paying as much attention.

Anyone have any insights into how the best guitarists do this?


I am sure the regulars will give you a much more comprehensive (and informed?) reply, but FWIW, after experimenting this way and that way, I came to the conclusion that I just have to strive to learn to cross any which way it comes and not try to adjust in general (maybe in special cases when flipping the starting point results in all crossings becoming "nice").

I realize this is maybe a frustrating advice, but I'd say try to practice awkward crossings to the point where they don't seem a big deal anymore.

As to timing - I don't know. When you practice an awkward crossing by itself it comes "early" in the scale run (since it is the only thing you are practicing). So you are probably encountering it both early and late and thus getting experience with both.

More generally, it seems like maybe a bit too much is made out of the instances when a fingertip-string setup deviates from the "ideal". It is not really mentioned much for tremolo, for example(*), even though both "i" and "a" there have deviated from their usual setup due to "ami" being on one string. I think it helps to strive for finger control to the point of being able to execute naturally on the string, the one "in front"(down), and the one "behind"(up).

(*) Single-string picado is actually another example - either "i" or "m" or likely both have had to adjust in their approach to the string a bit in order to be able to execute on a single string. The angle and setup of each fingertip with respect to the string is slightly different than the "canonical" or ideal one.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2017 17:02:47

Piwin

Posts: 2194
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RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to kitarist

+1 on the "frustrating advice".

To me the technical challenge those things pose is the same wherever it occurs. The finger I start with really just depends on what comes next (so which finger I want to end with).

But tbh the question seems kind of strange to me. I mean, it sounds like you're just accepting that these crossings will somehow **** up your picado run and you want to decide whether it's better to screw up at the beginning or at the end. I mean if you know you're gonna screw up, screw up at the end. Less notes out of whack. But maybe it's better to be in a position where you don't screw up at all?
I'll take a shot in the dark and say this: maybe you're playing these runs too fast? If you're comfortable playing picado without any of these crossings at X bpm but you're only comfortable with these crossings at, say, X minus 40 bpm, then you should be playing at X minus 40 bpm, not faster. I mean, it's like learning a full piece but there's this one really hard passage in it. Doesn't matter if you've got all the rest perfectly down and it doesn't matter if that passage is at the beginning or at the end, if you can't play that one passage up to speed, then you have to slow the whole thing down, even the parts that you could play faster.

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Chicken crossing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2017 18:54:13
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

Picado-cross early or late?



whenever i take a class or lesson or whatever i try to ask questions like "which finger do you start with?" or "which finger do you cross strings with?" etc. and i usually get answers like "dunno, don't worry about it" or "practise both ways".

so i practise both ways and don't worry about it

seriously, I do a selection of string crossing exercises every day 'cos that seems to be the main hurdle, for me at least, with picado. That and coordinating with my left hand. And maintaining consistent accuracy of the point of contact of right hand fingertips with the strings. So there's a lot to work on there.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2017 11:17:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11082
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

How do you choose where to put it?


For me, it's always better to get started on the right foot out of the gate, the rest will work itself out once the momentum is going.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2017 13:41:40
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3523
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

But tbh the question seems kind of strange to me. I mean, it sounds like you're just accepting that these crossings will somehow **** up your picado run and you want to decide whether it's better to screw up at the beginning or at the end.


I don't accept that there _has_ to be a ****up :). It's just that the beginning of runs and the end of runs feels different, to me. The quality of attention I give to the end is much lower than at the beginning.

I have a gig tonight with a friend of mine who has incredible picado. He always tells me that too many people start with their m finger and to practice a lot of things with the i finger to get it stronger. I don't know why he says that--my i finger seems much more dextrous and less prone to sticking or missing than my m. I'll see what he has to say about the crossing thing, though I bet he'll just say you have to work on it until you've got it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2017 18:17:44

Piwin

Posts: 2194
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Yeah I guess I've just never really noticed any difference between the beginning and the end.
But we all face different problems with the guitar I guess. For instance, I fit your friend's description perfectly: my i finger just isn't any match for the m finger and I'm constantly having to work on it to even out the sound levels between the two. It always feels a bit weird because to get a level sound I basically have to play as if I were accentuating all the notes played with the i finger. Up to around 140 bpm (16th notes) I can get a clean sound, but anything faster and it just sounds lopsided.
Anyways, did you get any good advice from your picado meister friend?

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Chicken crossing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2017 9:16:26
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

He always tells me that too many people start with their m finger and to practice a lot of things with the i finger to get it stronger. I don't know why he says that--my i finger seems much more dextrous and less prone to sticking or missing than my m.


I think from what I can remember of reading anatomy that the i finger is quicker and more accurate, but the m finger is stronger and more powerful. If that info is accurate, then it's likely to be more or less true for everyone.

How that works out in playing an instrument probably varies a bit according to individual differences and developments. I studied with one player who swore by leading (ie playing on the beat) always with his m finger. I know lots of others lead with i finger.

Although I practise leading with both I am quicker and more accurate with i finger, so tend to lead with that and let m follow along, regardless of string crossing. I guess if your m finger is accurate and quick enough to lead then you are going to get a good strong sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2017 16:01:53
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3523
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Up to around 140 bpm (16th notes) I can get a clean sound, but anything faster and it just sounds lopsided.


Well, you're doing way better than me!

The picado thing never came up, unfortunately, I was too busy herding cats.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2017 21:45:51
 
mark indigo

 

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From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I was too busy herding cats
???

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2017 21:51:43
 
kitarist

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 22 2017 17:13:52
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2017 22:58:09
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Hmm, this can't be right. Unlike things beyond our control (like finger length, for example), finger accuracy, strength, and speed are things you can train, so in a guitarist context any observations of the average-person characteristics (I suspect that's what these were) are not relevant, surely.


can't be right? hmmm....

I'm talking about the anatomical givens, before you start training on a musical instrument.

from what i remember the m finger is stronger in terms of grip strength.

and the i finger has more range of movement, and so has greater accuracy and speed.

Could be 'cos we use the i finger to point and tap things and so before we get near a guitar we have already "developed" it more in that way.... or could be that we use it in those ways 'cos it is more suited to those actions.... or could be a combination of evolution and use over time....

as i understood it that is a general average anatomical starting point anyway.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2017 23:14:46
 
kitarist

Posts: 556
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RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

as i understood it that is a general average anatomical starting point anyway.


Right. I just meant to say that as guitarists what we start from as untrained persons is not relevant anymore as we developed and modified all these characteristics into something different. Maybe general anatomical observations are still applicable or useful to beginners, but didn't think the OP was one.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2017 23:43:31

Piwin

Posts: 2194
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RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I was too busy herding cats.


Drama in flamenco land? Naaah, that never happens!

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Chicken crossing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2017 13:06:03
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

I just meant to say that as guitarists what we start from as untrained persons is not relevant anymore as we developed and modified all these characteristics into something different.


what? once you become a guitarist anatomy doesn't count anymore?

i very much doubt if any right handed guitarist can move their right hand m finger laterally more than any non-guitarist can move their right hand i finger laterally.

i think there may be an order of magnitude fault going on here. When i mentioned "strength" of m finger and "speed and accuracy" of i finger, i am talking about general anatomical givens.

Of course when we train on an instrument we seek to develop certain abilities, and make up for certain deficiencies.

But instrumentalists talk about the "strength" of a finger they (we) are often meaning functional ability. So an exercise to "strengthen" a particular finger is often really an exercise to train the control of that finger, and the ability to use it in certain ways, not an exercise to build muscle bulk, which is what "strength" implies.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2017 13:19:18
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I was too busy herding cats.
i get it now, thanks to urban dictionary

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2017 13:23:44
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Maybe general anatomical observations are still applicable or useful to beginners


just got to add also: as we progress we ignore anatomy and physiology at our peril. Think of Schumann damaging his hands, and Viejín too... not to mention numerous cases of rsi, tendonitis, carpel tunnel, focal dystonia etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2017 16:24:33
 
kitarist

Posts: 556
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RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I just meant to say that as guitarists what we start from as untrained persons is not relevant anymore as we developed and modified all these characteristics into something different.


what? once you become a guitarist anatomy doesn't count anymore?



It certainly counts - which is why it is silly when people (say in classical guitar land) always try to come up with the One Specific Recipe of how to set up and move you fingers to play guitar. So I'd say I am in full agreement with you when you say this below: "as we progress we ignore anatomy and physiology at our peril. Think of Schumann damaging his hands, and Viejín too... not to mention numerous cases of rsi, tendonitis, carpel tunnel, focal dystonia etc.".

Since clearly whatever point I was trying to make in a specific context here is totally getting lost, I will delete the offending comment.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2017 17:13:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11082
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I just meant to say that as guitarists what we start from as untrained persons is not relevant anymore as we developed and modified all these characteristics into something different.


what? once you become a guitarist anatomy doesn't count anymore?



It certainly counts - which is why it is silly when people (say in classical guitar land) always try to come up with the One Specific Recipe of how to set up and move you fingers to play guitar. So I'd say I am in full agreement with you when you say this below: "as we progress we ignore anatomy and physiology at our peril. Think of Schumann damaging his hands, and Viejín too... not to mention numerous cases of rsi, tendonitis, carpel tunnel, focal dystonia etc.".

Since clearly whatever point I was trying to make in a specific context here is totally getting lost, I will delete the offending comment.


In regards to i finger being fast and m finger being strong, I would say the jist of it is that since birth we already have "trained" our fingers to do certain tasks. The i m discrepancy is probably due to normal tendancies of this rather than the physical "clean slate" so to speak. Therefore the main idea stands that we must "retrain" our fingers to do special skills such as typing or playing an instrument, so the previous state of our fingers becomes moot. I must admit however that the speed vs strength results of the test seem extremely questionable to my scientific mind. What does seem relevant however, is a "right left" issue of dominance which might manifest in either finger. I often equate i m picado with a totally different mechanic, down vs up picking strokes, with very good results.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2017 11:19:58
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

In regards to i finger being fast and m finger being strong, I would say the jist of it is that since birth we already have "trained" our fingers to do certain tasks. The i m discrepancy is probably due to normal tendancies of this rather than the physical "clean slate" so to speak.
You think when we are born the i and m fingers are the same and we develop them differently through normal activity, play, school, sport etc.?

My understanding of the anatomy and physiology is first that the i finger has a greater "range of movement" and the m finger has more "grip strength".

I think the range of movement of i gives it greater potential for speed and accuracy.

I don't know how much of that we are born with and how much we develop, I would guess probably both.

quote:

Therefore the main idea stands that we must "retrain" our fingers to do special skills such as typing or playing an instrument, so the previous state of our fingers becomes moot.
Sure we do, big time! Not least evening out the differences in the i and m fingers! But we have a starting point for learning those skills, we have the physical hardware of our anatomy for developing those skills, and we have the potentials and limits of that anatomy to work with.

Not everyone needs to learn anatomy in order to play the guitar, though some of us have found it necessary in overcoming certain problems. Equally Learning to play the guitar doesn't make anatomy irrelevant.

quote:

I must admit however that the speed vs strength results of the test seem extremely questionable to my scientific mind.
you lost me there, what test was that?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2017 14:51:52
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

you lost me there, what test was that?

_____________________________


Any and every test that might have resulted in the conclusion that generally people's index finger develops or has speed/mobility vs the middle finger that supposedly develops or has more strength. Basically, any test that might support your questionable claims. It would be interesting to read a summary of how the conclusion was reached if it indeed has been by the science and medical community.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2017 21:08:19
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Any and every test that might have resulted in the conclusion that generally people's index finger develops or has speed/mobility vs the middle finger that supposedly develops or has more strength. Basically, any test that might support your questionable claims. It would be interesting to read a summary of how the conclusion was reached if it indeed has been by the science and medical community.


Raoul Tubiana (d.2013) was a hand specialist and hand surgeon. He wrote a bunch of stuff on the hand including "Examination of the Hand and Wrist", "Medical Problems of the Instrumentalist Musician", "An Atlas of Surgical Techniques of the Hand and Wrist" etc.

I would love to read some of this stuff first hand but it's quite expensive.

Tubiana's "The Hand, Vol. 1" and "Functional Anatomy of the Hand" are both quoted in Christopher Berg's "Mastering Guitar Technique: Process and Essence".

Also quoted in Berg's book is Frank R. Wilson, "The Hand".

I only have the Berg book and the Wilson book (and some general anatomy stuff like Grants and McMinns).

Pages 3-24 of the Berg book I found particularly interesting and useful. He references Tubiana extensively.

A few relevant passages:

The Fingers
The abilities and limits of individual fingers and their joints need to be clearly understood to take full advantage of proper use. Fingers do not function identically. Further, the knuckle, middle and tip joints are not of identical construction.
...

The Index Finger
The flexors and extensors of the index finger are, in most cases, independent. This independence in both flexion and extension accounts for the heavy use this finer gets in right hand technique.
...the index finger has less flexion at the knuckle joint than the other fingers, because it opposes the thumb. Guitarists should not force the follow-through of this finger to make it "look like" the others..
...
The index finger also has independence in abduction and adduction (the ability to move from side to side).
...

The Middle Finger
This finger has limited independence in both flexion and extension, primarily from its dependence on the ring finger for comfortable movement (a result of the quadrige effect). This dependence can be reduced in an i-m alternation by training the ring and middle finger to move freely with m. The middle finger does have more strength in flexion than the index finger. This may be why some guitarists prefer to play scales with m-i as opposed to i-m.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2017 12:01:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11082
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

The middle finger does have more strength in flexion than the index finger.


This is the exact type of statement that requires a citation reference or a cited sources which explain the experiment that give such a conclusion. Otherwise I could say "the pinky is the strongest finger of the hand" which means nada.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2017 13:33:46
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

quote:

The middle finger does have more strength in flexion than the index finger.


This is the exact type of statement that requires a sighted source.


a "sighted" source? Not sure what you mean by that, but if you mean page references, no problem.

Berg writes "The middle finger does have more strength in flexion than the index finger." on page 10 of "Mastering Guitar Technique: Process and Essence" [Author: Christopher Berg] published by Mel Bay Publications, and the footnote references "Tubiana 73". As far as I can tell he is quoting from "Raoul Tubiana, The Hand, Vol.1 (Philadelphia: WB Saunders, 1982)" page 73.

I also looked at Tubiana's "Examination of the Hand and wrist" (Routledge; 1 edition (20 April 1998)) on amazon and the look-inside function shows on page 126

"Middle Finger

The middle finger has more strength than the index finger in flexion."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2017 13:49:11
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11082
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to mark indigo

Sorry "cited".... I just want to know what was the experiment Tubiana did that resulted in the conclusion. I found a version of the book but only 111pages are previewed. On page 90 for example he details a type of experiment for some other conclusion of his about the extensors. There has to be some way he quantified "flexion strength" or not for the different fingers.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2017 14:50:20
 
kitarist

Posts: 556
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Sorry "cited".... I just want to know what was the experiment Tubiana did that resulted in the conclusion. I found a version of the book but only 111pages are previewed. On page 90 for example he details a type of experiment for some other conclusion of his about the extensors. There has to be some way he quantified "flexion strength" or not for the different fingers.


Here is page 126. This is a textbook, so no active research or references for a lot of claims like that. The argument about middle finger strength seems to do with its position in the hand and its length. Typical tests are to do with maximal contraction (as in grip strength), so whereas the use of any fingers in guitar playing is always far away from maximal force output, it is not clear how much weight to apply to differences in maximal force output in the context of guitar playing. The index finger does have its own extensor muscle - extensor indicis - so it probably has more range or individual control in non-guitarists; the differences would include both anatomically-enabled and habituation from daily use in normal life.

Also, what's with this guy; seems obsessed with finger amputation



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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2017 16:32:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11082
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Also, what's with this guy; seems obsessed with finger amputation


Well actually, now we have a context for the claim in question, and it seems that WAS the experiment...and a guy named Murray from 70's is cited, but it looks like it's about power grip strength, and each finger's contribution based on a percentage, derived from the amputated digits. We only get a figure for the index, (20-50%), and flexion strength is coupled with finger SIZE, so of course Middle is strongest by default (no data or source for this conclusion), and most importantly, a missing ring finger is least significant. (!!!!!). Hardly a useful section for equating physical hand characteristics to guitar playing! IMO of course.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2017 12:49:31
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2603
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

The index finger does have its own extensor muscle - extensor indicis - so it probably has more range or individual control in non-guitarists; the differences would include both anatomically-enabled and habituation from daily use in normal life.

Also, what's with this guy; seems obsessed with finger amputation


the point about individual differences in finger strength is that that is where we start out when we take up the guitar

and the "obsessed with finger amputation" is because this guy was a world class hand specialist and surgeon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2017 15:27:14
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Hardly a useful section for equating physical hand characteristics to guitar playing!


I think both of you have missed the point - I have not and am not trying to claim that the middle finger is stronger in guitar playing or in picado or any specifics, but that that the anatomical givens the hardware we start with when we learn, develop and continually refine guitar skills. I also understand that we already have more than enough "strength" in our hands and fingers before we start to play the guitar than we actually need to play it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2017 15:32:21
 
orsonw

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RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to mark indigo

I think we should get on and play the guitar rather than worry too much about any more than a basic understanding of anatomy and not injuring ourselves. Anyway-

Here are some maximal voluntary contraction (MVC) measures in a pressing task: (of course what this means for playing guitar is probably nothing, it's a different task and we are not using MVC).

N=10 right handed university students.

"no statistically significant difference existed between the index finger and middle finger forces,"

Experimental Brain Research
March 1998, Volume 119, Issue 3, pp 276–286
Force sharing among fingers as a model of the redundancy problem

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs002210050343?LI=true









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2017 17:36:05
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