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RE: Picado-cross early or late?   You are logged in as Guest
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orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to orsonw) 
As for accuracy- again not a study of guitar playing. But an interesting study of interdependence of fingers exploring motor control: reduncancy/ uncontrolled manifold hypothesis but now I'm really getting inappropriate for this foro.

"The ability to enslave other fingers was the lowest for the Index finger, followed by the Middle, Ring and Little fingers."

"Based on these results, we expected the most independent index finger to be most accurate. This was not the case, at least not with respect to directional accuracy."

Experimental Brain Research
May 2010, Volume 203, Issue 1, pp 101–118
Finger interaction in a three-dimensional pressing task
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00221-010-2213-7
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2017 17:48:54
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Also, what's with this guy; seems obsessed with finger amputation



and the "obsessed with finger amputation" is because this guy was a world class hand specialist and surgeon


Well DUH - why do you think I put a smiley right next to this - the smiley you omitted in quoting? I didn't think my joking was too subtle, but apparently so..

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2017 18:44:44
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to orsonw) 
Reading through these studies, which usually test normal subjects who haven't trained their bodies for 10+ years like most of us, has limited usefulness (but is interesting nonetheless). I just want to know why my middle finger tip joint always wants to lock up when I do fast alternation, and how to get rid of it. It seems to perhaps be a spastic bad habit, perhaps not directly related to anatomy. My a finger doesn't have that habit.

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2017 22:24:17
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
quote:

Reading through these studies, which usually test normal subjects who haven't trained their bodies for 10+ years like most of us, has limited usefulness (but is interesting nonetheless). I just want to know why my middle finger tip joint always wants to lock up when I do fast alternation, and how to get rid of it. It seems to perhaps be a spastic bad habit, perhaps not directly related to anatomy. My a finger doesn't have that habit.


Again the study below is not guitar but piano players, but I think relevant. Amateur piano players use more force to get the same loudness and tempo compared to experts. Seems the same as for guitar i.e. it's about increasing awareness of unnecessary muscle activity, learning to relax, to do less, nothing to do with strength.

"To achieve the same tempo and the same loudness, amateurs applied significantly more and longer force to the keys"

"Years of experience enable the expert player to perform precise and reproducible motion patterns with an independent coordination of playing and non-playing fingers, an immediate relaxation of the playing finger after touch and a sense for the piano’s response."

"The amateur-group were surprised by the enormous amount of force they had applied to the nonplaying fingers. They were not aware of this waste of force and had no conscious sense for the cramping".

Journal of Biomechanics 31 (1998) 1063—1067
Assessment of dynamic finger forces in pianists: Effects of training and expertise
Dietrich Parlitz*, Thomas Peschel , Eckart Altenmu¨ ller

https://www.immm.hmtm-hannover.de/fileadmin/www.immm/Publikationen/Parlitz_et_al._1998.pdf
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2017 22:42:10
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:

Well DUH - why do you think I put a smiley right next to this - the smiley you omitted in quoting? I didn't think my joking was too subtle, but apparently so..


I hadn't "omitted in quoting" intentionally - when i highlight text and hit reply the smileys never seem to get included, but I just didn't notice on this occasion.

I knew you were trying to make a joke (because of the smiley, DUH), but I thought that the world renowned expert in his field was supposed to be the butt of the joke and that it was an attempt to discredit him....

Undoubtedly your sense of humour is far too subtle for me.... or perhaps just too subtle for an internet forum....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2017 12:42:18
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to mark indigo) 
I see; OK I guess it was all a misunderstanding. No nefarious intentions from either side

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2017 15:06:29
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to orsonw) 
This may be my problem. I was just practicing and realized that at a certain point, the volume and force are indeed increasing and my control and accuracy are decreasing. Maybe by making sure I don't exceed this point, I can gradually raise this level.

I did most of my hard-core picado practice in the early 2000s, and I was a much more primitive guitarist back then. I'll let you know how this turns out. I don't seem to have any problem with any other techniques.

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2017 17:04:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado-cross early or late? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

This may be my problem. I was just practicing and realized that at a certain point, the volume and force are indeed increasing and my control and accuracy are decreasing. Maybe by making sure I don't exceed this point, I can gradually raise this level.

I did most of my hard-core picado practice in the early 2000s, and I was a much more primitive guitarist back then. I'll let you know how this turns out. I don't seem to have any problem with any other techniques.


Yes this is everybody's "speed limit", and the metronome helps make you aware of where you are at and where you might want to go. Slow uncomfortable tempos sometimes also create unwanted tensions as well IMO....it's all about controlling rhythm and feeling comfortable and at ease.


OrsonW....GOOD FINDS!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2017 20:51:25
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