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mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 283
Joined: May 14 2017
 

Marchas de Procesión 

Have now seen two processions in Seville which I was very impressed by. Now I'm not normally into wind instruments at all, but this made an impression.

I -think- they're Marchas de Procesión? I just got inspired to do a bit more digging into it listening to Saeta Sevillana by Manuel Centero and Banda de Cornetas Y Tambores

http://www.deezer.com/us/track/73865178

Wondering if this is a historical link with flamenco or if this is a quirky one-off? Not sure if there are good resources out there on the subject?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2017 17:49:57

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to mrstwinkle

Semana Santa has nothing to do with flamenco. However, the saeta has always been popular with cantaores, from Manuel Torre on. Nowadays there are variations of saetas, por seguiriyas or por caracoles.

However the saeta requires an impressive voice with a wide register and many cantaores do not have this kind of voice. Women are often better at saetas
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2017 19:04:21
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 283
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to Morante

quote:

Semana Santa


Thanks.

Could be my ignorance of Catholicism, but neither time I heard marches with horns in Seville were round (as far as I know) major religious festivals. I did however see the religious procession version going to the cathedral in Malaga - very impressive.

Will have to research saetas more....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2017 21:08:23

Piwin

Posts: 2164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

major religious festivals.


Look up the exact date you heard the procession go by and check the calendar of patron saints. There are patron saints for everything and anything and I'll bet you money there was a connection. Patron saint of a particular neighborhood, patron saint of a particular profession that is traditional in that area, etc. etc.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2017 21:33:09
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1761
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to Piwin

So who's the patron saint of cante?

Tomas Pavon?

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Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2017 21:44:11
 
Escribano

Posts: 5844
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Patron saint of a particular neighborhood


That would be Santa Ana of my old home, Restábal, along with her 3-day fiesta.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2017 21:55:14

Piwin

Posts: 2164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to Escribano

San Juan in my neighborhood. Right after, the festivities of next-door Carabanchel for San Pedro spill over into our neighborhood. They each get 3 or 4 days. Then there's San Isidro for the entire city. He gets a full week. La Almudena is in November, when the days are shorter and colder, so unfortunately for her she only gets a day.
But it's not Andalucia, so the festivities don't usually include a procession.

I remember in the Albaicin how they would regularly do dry-runs in preparation for Semana Santa. They'd practice their route carrying just the platform. They'd pile up their coats on top and usually there'd be a stereo blasting recordings of marchas. People either loved it or hated it but, either way, almost everybody had strong feelings about it.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2017 22:29:21
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2553
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrstwinkle

quote:

Semana Santa


Thanks.

Could be my ignorance of Catholicism, but neither time I heard marches with horns in Seville were round (as far as I know) major religious festivals. I did however see the religious procession version going to the cathedral in Malaga - very impressive.

Will have to research saetas more....


Here you have La Virgen de la Macarena leaving her basilica for her procession to the Cathedral and back, during "La Madrugada." The most important figures make their journey during the early morning hours of Good Friday.



As soon as she comes out the door La Macarena is greeted by a saeta.The Banda de la Señora del Carmen, from a town just northwest of Sevilla accompanies her with a varied selection slow pasodobles. The men who carry the images on their shoulders march to the rhythm of the bands, or in the case of La Sentencia, a drum and bugle corps dressed as Roman soldiers.

The great Mexican trumpet virtuoso Rafael Mendez took La Macarena's own pasodoble as the basis for a florid solo. Takes me back to my days as a kid trumpeter.



The narrow Calle de Sierpes is part of the Carrera Oficial closer to the cathedral. One hears La Macarena's pasodoble before she turns the corner and comes into view in a blaze of candles.

Few if any Christian religious festivals beat Semana Santa in Seville for drill and ceremonies.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2017 3:06:02
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 283
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

Few if any Christian religious festivals beat Semana Santa in Seville for drill and ceremonies.


Interesting, even though I'm completely atheist. In the past I've avoided going there at Easter due to inflated hotel prices, but might have a change of plan for once.

The tone seems somehow oddly flamenco influenced to my ears - or perhaps I'm just imagining it. Or simply very Spanish.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2017 5:12:38
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2553
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrstwinkle

quote:

Few if any Christian religious festivals beat Semana Santa in Seville for drill and ceremonies.


Interesting, even though I'm completely atheist. In the past I've avoided going there at Easter due to inflated hotel prices, but might have a change of plan for once.

The tone seems somehow oddly flamenco influenced to my ears - or perhaps I'm just imagining it. Or simply very Spanish.


I was raised an Episcopalian, the American branch of the Anglican Communion, but I have been consciously agnostic since the age of 18. I suppose I must have been dubious before that. Anglicans rank behind the Roman and Orthodox Churches in ceremony, but they can put on a show at times, for example Easter or Innocents' Day at Westminster Abbey, or Christmas at King's College Cambridge.

I find I can enjoy the emotional resonance of Semana Santa in Sevilla without requiring any mental gymnastics. As you can see from the video, it's not a time and place for anyone who has not a very high tolerance for extremely big and dense crowds--and inflated lodging prices.

Years ago a friend arranged for us to stay at the house of a Marqués during Seville's Feria, a couple of weeks after Easter. A few cases of good California wine was the room rent, and the price of admission to his caseta. Lots of sevillanas, but a little flamenco in places.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2017 6:08:23

Piwin

Posts: 2164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

Interesting, even though I'm completely atheist. In the past I've avoided going there at Easter due to inflated hotel prices, but might have a change of plan for once.


I remember reading somewhere that church attendance was plummeting in Andalucia while at the same time participation to Semana Santa was on the rise. Go figure.

Semana santa is something that is worth seeing, but I wouldn't go out of my way more than once to see it tbh. Sevilla is definitely impressive but it can be equally interesting in other smaller cities (where the hotels are cheaper). But not too small. Of what I've seen, in small villages the "statues" are small enough that you only need three or four people to carry them and they do without the garb. I'm sure it's great if you're part of the community but as a tourist there's not much appeal.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2017 9:02:32
 
Escribano

Posts: 5844
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Of what I've seen, in small villages the "statues" are small enough that you only need three or four people to carry them and they do without the garb. I'm sure it's great if you're part of the community but as a tourist there's not much appeal.


That's about it. Some guy in front launching cohetes from his bare hands, dogs barking etc. It's more of a duty for residents, like the widow praying out loud for a year de luto, but it is a holiday, so a small price to pay.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2017 10:42:08
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2794
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Few if any Christian religious festivals beat Semana Santa in Seville for drill and ceremonies.


I would agree with you, but Semana Santa in the Philippines always adds an interesting touch. Early on in my Foreign Service career I was assigned to the American Embassy in Manila. Like most of Latin America and Spain, the Philippines closes down during Semana Santa. Penitentes with pointed hoods and the whole regalia parade through the streets of most towns and villages, and many scourge themselves with split bamboo whips.

And every year, as long as anyone can remember, someone in the town of San Fernando, a bit north of Manila, is actually crucified on a cross, with nails in the hands and feet. Historians have concluded that Roman crucifixions, including that of Christ, placed the nails through the wrist, as the palm of the hand would not withstand the weight, but the Filipino who is crucified in San Fernando is nailed through the palms and does not stay on the cross for long.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2017 17:46:16
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2553
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

I remember reading somewhere that church attendance was plummeting in Andalucia while at the same time participation to Semana Santa was on the rise. Go figure.



When I first spent the summer in Mexico on my own at age 17, several people told me "Creo en Dios, pero no en los sacerdotes." ("I believe in God, but not in the priests.") Perhaps a similar trend is taking hold in Spain.

Both the Mexican Reforma of 1857 and the Revolution of 1910 were strongly anti-clerical. As far as I know, all Church buildings in Mexico are still the property of the federal government, and the government still has the power to determine how many priests officiate in the country. As recently as the 1970s it was prohibited to appear on the street dressed as a priest.

The change in Spain since the death of Franco has been far more peaceful, but as the country has become more western European in culture the support for the Church and its power have steeply declined.

Franco and the Church were closely aligned during Fascism. The "G." on coins stands for "gracia": "Francisco Franco, Caudillo of Spain, by the grace of God." This, no doubt, is a factor in the Church's loss of influence.

But as the Mexican experience indicates, loss of faith in the Church doesn't necessarily imply loss religious faith.



The first Spaniards I came to know lived in the primer cuadro of Mexico City, the original center of the city near the Zocalo, the main square. They had left Spain when Franco won the Civil War. They weren't communists or anarchists. They were doctors, lawyers, and small businessmen who had established themselves in Mexico.

Many of them ate at the restaurant of the Hotel El Salvador, a few blocks south of the Zocalo. The hotel was owned by Spaniards. Both "La Señora" who ran the dining room and most of her cuisine were Spanish. Others among our favorite places to eat was a large Basque restaurant on the third floor of a building on San Juan de Letran, owned by a cooperative society (the street is now the Eje Central Lazaro Cardenas), "El Meson del Castellano" in Calle Bolivar and "Cafe El Moro" for late night churros and chocolate.

Of course the Spaniards' attitudes toward Franco were what you would expect. The Mexican government never recognized the Fascists as the legitimate government of Spain.

When I first went to Spain in 1957 and saw the coins, I felt a chill.

RNJ

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2017 23:06:57
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2794
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Both the Mexican Reforma of 1857 and the Revolution of 1910 were strongly anti-clerical.


True as far as it goes, but the real official, legal, harsh anti-clerical stance of the Mexican government was encoded in the Constitution of 1917, which outlawed teaching by the Church, gave control over Church matters to the state, put all Church property at the disposal of the state, outlawed religious orders, outlawed foreign-born priests, gave states the power to limit or eliminate priests in their territory, deprived priests of the right to vote or hold office, and prohibited Catholic organizations which advocated public policy. The Constitution of 1917 effectively outlawed the Catholic church. Another contributing factor was the support the traditionalists (including the Catholic Church) gave Maximillion as the French emperor before his overthrow.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2017 2:57:55
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2553
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

True as far as it goes, but the real official, legal, harsh anti-clerical stance of the Mexican government was encoded in the Constitution of 1917....<snip>

Bill


Also true as far as it goes.

On that trip in 1955 I encountered hand painted signs in the Bajio and Michoacan on walls and doorposts, "Viva Cristo Rey":"Long live Christ the King." Some people I asked about the signs just changed the subject, others cautioned me not to bring up such questions, and a handful of people told me parts of the story.

The anticlerical provisions of the 1917 Constitution were not enforced until the Presidency of Plutarco Elias Calles, who passed laws to implement them, and to suppress religious fiestas. In 1926 the local guerilla resistance to the Calles laws coalesced into widespread rebelion in central and western Mexico, supported by the Church. The Mexican Army, largely loyal to the government, moved to put down the revolt. Widespread armed conflict persisted until 1929, when peace was established, partly brokered by the U.S. Ambasador. The government of Emilio Portes Gil allowed the Church to go back into business, under strict supervision. Anticlerical laws remained on the books until 1992.

This Wikipedia article mainly agrees with what I have read or heard:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristero_War

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2017 3:39:43
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2794
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to Richard Jernigan

The anti-clerical provisions of the 1917 Constitution were important because they lent a chapeau of Constitutional legitimacy to all of the extremely harsh measures the Mexican government subsequently took against both the Church as an institution and the clergy as individuals. Mexico's anti-clerical position was much harsher than many people think, and more so than the anodyne term "anti-clerical" suggests. I highly recommend one of my favorite authors, Graham Greene, who wrote two books on the extreme measures taken by the Mexican government against the church: "The Lawless Roads" and "The Power and the Glory."

"The Lawless Roads" (published in 1939) is a travel account by Graham Greene, based on his 1938 trip to Mexico, to see the effects of the government's campaign of forced anti-Catholic secularisation and how the inhabitants had reacted to the brutal anticlerical purges of President Plutarco Elías Calles. It is a vivid first-hand account of just how brutal the campaign was. "The Power and the Glory" is a novel based on what Greene saw and experienced on that trip. It is a the story of a Catholic priest being hunted down by government forces. Both books are very good and Greene's writing is superb.

My mother and her sister spent the first 16 years of their lives in Mexico, as my grandfather was manager of the Union Pacific Railroad in Northern Mexico. They all moved up to the U.S. after the Mexican government nationalized the railroads, the oil industry, and other foreign-owned elements in the 1930s. Bought what was the old Mexican consulate in Nogales, Arizona, and renovated it into a very nice residence. My father was in the Pacific for three years during World War II, and my mother and I lived in that house in Nogales until my father returned from the war when we moved up to Phoenix.

My grandmother, mother, and aunt had many interesting stories to tell about the campaign against the Church, which they, of course witnessed first-hand while living in Mexico. Also, many stories of revolutionary activity in Mexico. I still have my grandfather's photographs taken during the Mexican Revolution from 1910 on. There are interesting photographs of trains with armed troops in armored cars in front of the locomotive and at the rear of the train. And several photos of rebels from one side or the other who were hanged from telegraph poles and left there as a warning to others. We also have a "Certificado de Salvaconducto" signed and issued to my grandfather by Venustiano Carranza, which allowed my grandfather to pass unhindered within territory under Carranza's control. Very interesting and exciting times, those. But brutal for the Catholic church.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2017 14:56:42

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

But brutal for the Catholic church.


Más brutal mejor: una de las empresas mas corruptas de la historia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2017 15:10:45
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2553
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Marchas de Procesión (in reply to BarkellWH

Of the books Bill recommends I have only read "The Power and the Glory," which I recommend as well. It is consonant with stories I have heard from the period.

Mexico, for all its brilliance in style, culture and art, has often been a brutal place. Though Benito Juarez, the principal leader of the Reforma of 1857, was a poor Indian boy from the hills around Oaxaca, nurtured and educated at age 12 by a kind hearted priest in the city, Juarez and the Reforma were against the Church for a number of reasons.

The Church was largely aligned with the Conservative political faction, who opposed the Reforma. The Reformists suspected the Church of lending financial support to the Army, whose power the Reforma intended to reduce. But perhaps the weightiest reason was that the Church was among the largest landowners in the country, perhaps the very largest.

The concentration of land ownership in the hands of a small group of wealthy landowners and the Church condemned landless peasants to poverty and oppression. The Church was the leading institution responsible for this oppression. Much, if not most Church land was administered by wealthy secular leaseholders. The Church hierarchy played only an indirect role, but it was Church land ownership which enabled the abuses.

The "Ley Juarez" law removed many privileges of the clergy. Priests had been under the exclusive jurisdiction of church courts. The Ley Juarez subordinated church courts to civil law.

The "Ley Lerdo" forbade land ownership by corporate entities. It dictated that such land be sold to its occupants on easy terms. If the owners did not voluntarily sell, the land was put up for public auction.

This law had two serious defects. It left large amounts of land in the hands of wealthy individuals, and it deprived native communities of the communal lands they had held since before the Spanish conquest. But the Ley Lerdo eventually led to the confiscation of Church lands, which touched off a war between the Liberal Reformists and the Conservatives.

The Reformist land policy was a failure. Just before the Porfirio Diaz presidency ended, near the beginning of the 1910 Revolution, 97% of Mexican land was held by 1% of the population. The land reform provisions of the 1917 Constitution were never fully implemented, and have essentially been abandoned.

The 1926 Calles administration may have been a brutal time for the Church, but the preceding 1910-1920 Revolution killed a fifth of the population in armed combat, famine and epidemics.

My family connection to those days is not nearly as close as Bill's. I only heard first hand accounts by relatives from those who have raised coffee near Jalapa since the 1870s. They supported Venustiano Carranza and Álvaro Obregon.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2017 23:45:28
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