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RE: Specs in a guitar plan   You are logged in as Guest
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Ricardo

Posts: 12994
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM

quote:

because I REALLY want to make sure I get this neck angle correct - or at the very least, some set up that gives me between 7-8mm at the bridge.


Dude....if you get this right on your first try I will buy you a beer! . Seriously, I discussed this with an experienced luthier who insisted that he could nail the exact height to the 0.1 millimeter and luthiers claiming that they might not hit it exactly right between 1 and 1.5 millimeters were simply not experienced.

So months later I tried his guitar that was supposed to be 7.5mm at the bridge....the thing was over 9 millimeters and buzzed like crazy! . I said what happened and he shrugged his shoulders and said “I tried but things shifted”.....and for the record, Reyes tends to have a very high saddle with lots of buzz compared to other flamencos, so don’t do what he did. If anything do what Conde brothers did....contract out to R. Sanchis and friends and stick your JasonM label on later!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2018 16:11:22
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

So months later I tried his guitar that was supposed to be 7.5mm at the bridge....the thing was over 9 millimeters and buzzed like crazy! . I said what happened and he shrugged his shoulders and said “I tried but things shifted”.....and for the record, Reyes tends to have a very high saddle with lots of buzz compared to other flamencos, so don’t do what he did.


Ricardo, you have a point to consider since Reyes was discovering different modes of expression for string height due to the playing requirements of each player. The 2003 model is the perfect example of over-build so that when age sets in, the repairman can adjust the string height pretty easily, by lowering the saddle or reverse engineering the thick fingerboard to reset the action.

I have found that everyone seems to have his own peculiarities about string action these days.

I now work in strict 45 % humidity control and take a little off the bass side to give it a concave curve to relieve some rajo, (string pop), on the frets. Something similar to what Richard Brune does for his fingerboards.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2018 17:34:57
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Dude....if you get this right on your first try I will buy you a beer!




_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2018 17:40:44
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM

Jason,

It's pretty simple to adjust by taking a fingerboard and clamping it to the neck and then using a piece of wood the same thickness as the bridge and figuring the action from there, using a straight edge with a little compensation, (Guess work), for the string torgue to pull up the top.

Once you have made a few guitars, with that model, it will be a piece of cake. I never come to a conclusion without building at least 4 guitars with any given model.

I think Reyes had fore-thought about some of this due to his many clients using different playing techniques.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2018 17:51:24
 
constructordeguitarras

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 3:04:25
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Tom--

Did you ever communicate with Reyes? And did he tell you about his assembly method?

(Oops, sorry if this is the wrong thread for this question.)

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 3:07:21
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

Quite assuredly he, the good Mr. Blackshear, had a lengthy seance' in which an occult expert developed a psychic link between the deceased St. Reyes and the rest on the participants around the table. Sr. Reyes admonished them from beyond the realm of the living to follow his words exactly. Then the great spirit discoursed until 10 am the new next morning, whereupon after El Sr. rejoined the other souls and the seance' goers sought churros and chocolate milk in the mercado.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 3:50:07
 
Echi

 

Posts: 939
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

On the web there are some pictures of Reyes assemblying a guitar.
He first braces his guitars starting from the under bridge patch and the 2 transverse bars: he planes down the patch and follows by gluing the fan struts. He uses standard clamps for the purpose.
After this operation the top becomes slightly arched transversely..
Next to that Reyes assembles the box face down over a solera, using single peones, in the classic Spanish way, and fit the sides mostly using mattresses’ springs. .
Tom gave a correct info when he said that the top is almost flat behind the bridge and just very slightly arched transversely .
In my opinion it doesn’t make difference at all if the fretboard is tapered down 1 mm underneath or not.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 8:42:31
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2253
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:


Did you ever communicate with Reyes? And did he tell you about his assembly method?


No, I deduced this from his 2003 model that I had a chance to examine. It belonged to Chris Kamen at that time. He was nice enough to loan me the guitar for about a week to view its pattern.

Years ago, when I was struggling to find a copy of Manuel Reyes to emulate, there was a player in Texas who was visiting my shop in San Antonio. The player had one with him so I asked if he would allow me to see his guitar, and he said that Reyes would probably not like it.

I remember saying that Sr. Reyes would most likely say that since you own the guitar you can do anything you like with it. Well, he called Reyes on my nickel and that's exactly what he said, almost verbatim. So the guy was aloof about the deal and never did show me the guitar.

Well, finally I got a chance to view Chris Kamen's 2003 model and build a copy in 2004, and this same fellow came by my shop to see it. After playing the guitar, he said "It does everything I tell it to."

BTW if you are wondering if I follow the same building procedure as Reyes; the answer again is No, I follow my own style, with slight additions to try and improve the sound. This is what I have done with some of the master's models for over 55 years.

I donated two of these plans to the Guild of American Luthiers; the 1977 church door Miguel Rodriguez classical guitar and the 2003 Manuel Reyes flamenco guitar. Both of these models were not a slavish copy but with slight modifications that brought the essence of both to the market for guitar builders to enjoy.

I understand that Sr. Reyes built his guitars upside down in a solera; I build my guitars right side up due to certain angles and such I try to accomplish. I manage to see the angles of the top better that way. Also, I use solid two part laminate lining for the top when glued to the sides. I think it improves the volume a little. This is similar to the Rodriguez design.

You can call Tim Olsen at the GAL and ask him about the number or popularity of sales for these two instrument patterns, if you wish.

1-253-472-7853

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 9:15:07
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

Seeing shiit on the internet is the same as a seance'. 'Reading' a guitars construction method is anyones guess, as there are different ways to interpret the work.

The District Attorney office rests.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 12:18:40
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Quite assuredly he, the good Mr. Blackshear,



Steve,

I built one guitar this past year; like I'm a real threat to your building practice

But there is a possibility that I will help Juan Cadena set up a small factory and enjoy my last days helping people do their thing.

It's going to be small due to the fact that hiring people to work and then having to train them on your nickel, plus worker's comp and double Social Security just about breaks you before you get started in a new business here.

I called Steve McCreary, yesterday, at Collins Guitars, in Austin Texas, about his situation since Bill passed on a year ago. He told me that things are turning around for more profit but the workers comp and Social Security practically eats you alive with 90 employees to have to feed.

But these people are fighters and hope to continue making fine steel strung guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 14:51:04
 
Morante

 

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Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

Did you ever communicate with Reyes? And did he tell you about his assembly method?


I used to visit Reyes when I was in Córdoba and bring him a bottle of Montilla. After many years, I fell out with him when I bought a Reyes Hijo, which I returned for poor finishing, poor sound and a bridge which had been placed without compensation.

Padre came out and insisted that all was well. I showed that the note at the 12th was a quarter out with the harmonic. He insisted that they were the same. I repeated the test with a good tuner. He said the tuner did not work. Then he said that he put his bridges in the same place and nobody had ever complained.

I lost patience, demanded my money back and left, never to return. There are no dioses, especially in Andalucía.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 16:15:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12994
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

Did you ever communicate with Reyes? And did he tell you about his assembly method?


I used to visit Reyes when I was in Córdoba and bring him a bottle of Montilla. After many years, I fell out with him when I bought a Reyes Hijo, which I returned for poor finishing, poor sound and a bridge which had been placed without compensation.

Padre came out and insisted that all was well. I showed that the note at the 12th was a quarter out with the harmonic. He insisted that they were the same. I repeated the test with a good tuner. He said the tuner did not work. Then he said that he put his bridges in the same place and nobody had ever complained.

I lost patience, demanded my money back and left, never to return. There are no dioses, especially in Andalucía.


Though it was discussed, I read an interview where Reyes claimed to not use compensation on any guitar. I guess that would be easy to check by measuring... I am pretty good at guessing just by playing the thing and I think I prefer less compensation personally...poor sound is the thing he should have been bothered by and offer to replace it with next build.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 17:21:12
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Morante

quote:

Padre came out and insisted that all was well. I showed that the note at the 12th was a quarter out with the harmonic. He insisted that they were the same. I repeated the test with a good tuner. He said the tuner did not work. Then he said that he put his bridges in the same place and nobody had ever complained.


At least he didn't sic his dog on you.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 17:26:32
 
Morante

 

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Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I am pretty good at guessing just by playing the thing


Quite right. I only measured it when I realised I could never tune it well. Though I have played several Reyes which sounded well and tuned well. (And a couple of duds, of course )
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 17:27:42
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I prefer less compensation personally...


The lower the action, the less compensation is needed for pushing down the string--which is generally what the string length is increased for. So with a really low-action setup on a flamenco guitar, little is needed.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 17:30:35
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Morante

quote:

Padre came out and insisted that all was well. I showed that the note at the 12th was a quarter out with the harmonic. He insisted that they were the same. I repeated the test with a good tuner. He said the tuner did not work. Then he said that he put his bridges in the same place and nobody had ever complained.


I understand what you mean but the plan suggests that there be no compensation, however the real test would have been to measure the distance to see if the top tension pulled the bridge past the line of correct distance.

This could happen with different top stiffness. What I try to do is set the bridge on what I call the blue line, on the plan, and allow the string torque to pull the bridge forward, just enough to set the correct measurement.

Truly, this design works well with no compensation.

My question to you would be, did the guitar play sharp or flat? If it played sharp then it might have been that the guitar was having too much tension that pulled the bridge forward out of place, which could have been attributed to the strings being too high in tension or the top thickness being too thin to hold the bridge in place.

Either way I would have made the effort to try and correct it for you.

But I'm not taking sides over this issue.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 17:34:30
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3130
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Slightly unrelated, but the required compensation for a classical depends not only on string tension, but also upon the material of the string.

The several brands of so-called "carbon" (actually fluorocarbon) strings I tried require more force than nylon to stretch them enough to touch the fret. The "carbon" trebles are thinner, so they feel even harder to fret.

When I acquired my '73 Romanillos I systematically tried many brands and types of strings on it. I found that every set of "carbons" I put on it went sharp as I moved up the fingerboard. (For the Romanillos the "carbons" were too bright as well.)

The action on the Romanillos 6th string is 4mm at the 12th fret, but it's easier to play than a different classical with 3.5mm, and the same brand and type of strings.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 20:04:00
 
jshelton5040

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RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I am pretty good at guessing just by playing the thing and I think I prefer less compensation personally.

This statement is puzzling to me. A guitar either plays in tune (roughly) or it doesn't.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2018 22:50:40
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

This is just me, but if I were building a first guitar I would get a consensus from several makers on compensation. I'd compensate the saddle rather than risk having a guitar you'll have to move the saddle or move the bridge. I'd learn the conventional Spanish way of compensation first, which is simply set the bridge back to allow for the saddle to be compensated. You can even set the bass side back a hair more.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2018 1:41:53
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

I found that every set of "carbons" I put on it went sharp as I moved up the fingerboard.


I have found the same thing on guitars that I have made, to my chagrin.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2018 3:04:14
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:


quote:

I found that every set of "carbons" I put on it went sharp as I moved up the fingerboard.


I have found the same thing on guitars that I have made, to my chagrin.


I've ordered a dozen genuine rubber fingerboards for the the al carbon players. More rubber bend in the neck to forgive the carbon not stretching.

Carbon strings were a bad idea that came to life. They work better on the lute as high treble strings in the G tuning range. The lute has flat neck in plane with the body so the string geometry is closer to the plane of the body and neck. The carbon works better with that geometry. If you make guitars with a really high belly arch and no forward neck angle and set a close action string sets that don't have as much give will fair better. Neck relief and forward pitch, plus higher action works better with a forgiving string.

And higher tensions don't automatically equate to more performance- it's an exhaustive and complex subject, but string tension, like a lot of other subsystems in the whole guitar, have a point of diminishing returns on individual guitars. I'm not a fan of carbon, I like nylon and even prefer on the more forgiving end of the spectrum. I think less forgiving strings, and I can't prove this it's anecdotal, set up potential problems with overtone activity
some guitars.

The way I think about guitars is that they should sound and project without having to resort to hard strings. No one asked for that, but there it is as a point of discussion. Anyone ever read Alan Carruth's essay called 'String Theory'? I can't claim to understand the math, but his interpretation of the data he collected says a lot about strings and high partials that is very interesting. He explains in his conclusion why high partials tend to go sharp, so I think why exacerbate an issue that is intrinsic to the system?

BTW after a little consideration I bought a slew of La Bella 820's because I decided it's possible without much trouble to re calibrate your internal sense baseline for what is a neutral string. I'm not going to praise Conde's or ever use that baby vomit orange, but Ricardo was right about the 820's for flamenco guitars. I like them because they are a meaty, warm pliable string. It's a good baseline string.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2018 4:34:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12994
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I am pretty good at guessing just by playing the thing and I think I prefer less compensation personally.

This statement is puzzling to me. A guitar either plays in tune (roughly) or it doesn't.


Well perhaps you never noticed two players play the same instrument back to back, and one guy sounded more “in tune” than the other guy? THis has to do with technique and the ear balancing the intonation while playing. Can’t tell you how many times I watch careless fingered players tune their guitar with a tuner then proceed to play out of tune many chords and melodic notes that are important. I learned that this was a specific thing to deal with as a teenager when I changed a bolt on neck on my electric guitar and had to come to terms quickly with both the problems with equal temp system plus the inaccuracies the fingers deliver to everything except open strings.

The intonation issue is not so obvious on nylon string guitars, and the lower the action the less the left hand will affect things. However it was many many years of playing and confirming the importance of left hand technique before I discovered this compensation thing that luthiers had been doing. A private discussion with Richard Brune where he gave me actual measurements for various builders that a light bulb went off in my head, and now I can pretty much tell which guitars are compensated more or less. What it came down to physically is this....you know vibrato technique (side to side not bending up and down) produces either a higher or lower pitch, correct? So this occurs every time we place a finger on a string to some degree. I argue against tuning to chords or ANY fretted notes and such for this reason. Next, the player becomes aware of lowering pitch pushing toward the bridge and raises it pulling away (opposite of a violin or cello because of the fixed fret)...I had been aware since a teen how “sweet” or “Flat” the high position notes on my dad’s Hauser were compared to all my other guitars, so much that I tend to pull back on notes in upper position....and when Brune told me how far back Hauser liked to position his bridge relative to other builders, it all made sense.

So when I play and I hear my harmonic environment, when I play a guitar I will be pushing pulling etc to some degree, very precisely each note I play. And the higher the action the more careful I have to be because a push or pull will be quite exaggerated. Compensated guitars I find I need to pull on more than un compensated guitars, which I have to push on the notes, depending on the interval. A specific example might be if I hear an E chord harmony, when I play notes in the upper register, I fine tune the melody by pulling back a hair on a B note, but pushing forward on a G# for example. It is not something I literally need to think about, I have been playing this way since I was a teen and it’s just how the ear dictates what our fingers need to do.

One last thing is, old trebles strings wear down and tend to go sharp up the fingerboard....so I tend to over compensate by pushing forward on old strings...until I actual feel my self doing it physically and realize it’s time to change the strings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2018 15:27:24
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

you know vibrato technique (side to side not bending up and down) produces either a higher or lower pitch, correct?


It seems to me that bending the note this way can only raise the pitch relative to the non-bent note.

Moreover, I wasn't aware of
quote:

lowering pitch pushing toward the bridge and raises it pulling away


despite playing for almost 50 years! I'll have to check that out.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2018 16:48:37
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I had been aware since a teen how “sweet” or “Flat” the high position notes on my dad’s Hauser were compared to all my other guitars, so much that I tend to pull back on notes in upper position....and when Brune told me how far back Hauser liked to position his bridge relative to other builders, it all made sense.


So you prefer that a guitar play slightly flat in the upper positions? That's what happens when you reduce compensation. You can stretch the string or pull it on a single note but it gets much more complicated if you're playing chords with open strings next to fretted ones. No criticism implied or intended, we all know that there is no guitar that plays perfectly in tune hence all the various compromises to try to get it at least close by spreading the "out-of-tuneness" across the entire fingerboard.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2018 18:21:33
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Tom,

if you were to assemble face down on a Solera would you still shim the tail block and taper to get the dome behind the bridge? Or would you dish the Solera instead? Wonder what Reyes did...

I found this thread from 12 years ago where this guy Ramon documented his build with the Reyes plan. This was the Solera he made for the dome. he dished out an 1/8" at the back and tapered up to the bridge, but was unsure if that was correct. In the end he wound up with a string height of 10mm at the bridge. A bit too high.

I totally get the benefits to your method of assembly, however my luthier friend who is helping me strongly advised me to go the traditional route on a Solera, because that's what he knows. So I'm a bit torn on which way to go here, down or up?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2018 0:25:03
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Dude....if you get this right on your first try I will buy you a beer! .


And I will buy this guitar a beer if the setup is right. Might even let it out of the basement to play. Anders said years ago that it's difficult to get consistent exact results with the neck angle with each guitar. The way the sides are fit in to the heel and the pressure from glueing the back on can all cause things to move. But he says you counter this by adjusting the fretboard. I'll have to find the thread again...

Can't beat the Condes/ Sanchis and friends, lol. Maybe Reyes should have contracted out his set up to then.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2018 0:51:09
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3130
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

Anders said years ago that it's difficult to get consistent exact results with the neck angle with each guitar. The way the sides are fit in to the heel and the pressure from glueing the back on can all cause things to move. But he says you counter this by adjusting the fretboard. I'll have to find the thread again...

Can't beat the Condes/ Sanchis and friends, lol. Maybe Reyes should have contracted out his set up to then.


Aha! Now something makes sense to me that didn't quite compute before.

At a concert a few years ago I got talking to the man next to me at intermission. Found out he worked for Collings here in Austin. Furthermore, he had done an apprenticeship of two years or more with either Bechstein or Bösendorfer in Vienna, making some of the world's most prestigious and expensive concert grand pianos.

The concert was one of a series. I happened to sit next to the same man at the next one. I asked him what he did at Collings. He said he was in charge of setup. Three or four other people (maybe more?) worked under his supervision.

In the back of my mind, the question lingered: What was a highly trained expert craftsman like him doing just filing nuts and saddles?

But according to your Anders quote, there's more to it than that--presumably even in a factory. As Ramon Zalapa said to me more than 60 years ago in Paracho, "Todos no salen igual."

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2018 3:42:12
 
Echi

 

Posts: 939
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Ricardo

@ JasonM
That solera would make for a traditionally domed guitar. In fact that solera is made in the way of Romanillos (or Bogdanovich) while usually in Spain you would use a flat solera scooped in the middle of the lower bout.
In the case of Reyes you shouldn’t add any shim in the area behind the bridge: this way the guitar will come out almost flat in that area. That’s exactly why Tom Blackshear (who assembles the guitar face up) adds a couple of mm to the end block.
In my understanding Santos used the same method in some guitars.
I hope it’s clear but here the language barrier makes it hard for me.

quote:

Can't beat the Condes/ Sanchis and friends, lol. Maybe Reyes should have contracted out his set up to then

Sanchis and Conde have often different geometries on the neck angle. In my experience they are not consistent at all.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2018 10:18:22
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2253
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM

Jason,

I think you can go either way on this if you graduate the solera to fit the top. Once the solera is built right then you can use it over and over again.

I think it's a matter of being able to function correctly with the build, not that one is better than the other. I developed my method because I build a lot of different masters patterns, and this ideal was good, as it didn't cause problems with a multitude of diversity.

However, building the top upright is not a new idea, as it was used by some builders in the past. All of my students, some with past solera experience, like my method, so it's a mixed bag for whatever you may decide.

But if you can get the solera fixed right, it would present a better, or easier way to fit the top, because it holds everything in place for the neck and box, without having to make little fixtures to hold the neck in place.

So if your friend is feeling better about using a solera then that's fine.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2018 10:58:26
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