Specs in a guitar plan

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JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Specs in a guitar plan

I would like to use Tom's Reyes plan for my first build. I'm concerned about how much (or little) information on measurements is documented in this plan compared to others. And I read in an older thread that Tom did some advanced stuff that is not documented in the plan that sounds confusing: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=128607&mpage=2&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=

Looking at thumbnail pics of Brune's plans and some of the classicals, it looks like more measurements are given for soundboard etc.

Is this important info? I know my first build is not going to be great, but whatever specs I don't get from the plan will have to come from the Santos plan in Making Master Guitars and a Luthier friend of mine. But, I would be more insipired working from a the Reyes recipe, and i know Tom knows his stuff.

Ugh I'm already getting stressed lol

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2017 1:08:02

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

The thing is not difficult in itself, I's difficult to explain it though, even more for me as I don't have enough language skills to do it properly.
The point here is the neck ANGLE, which is not drawn in the plan but just mentioned in the specs.
As you know the neck/fretboard usually has a slight relief (2.5 mm in this case) to avoid the string buzzing over the frets.
In the average Spanish way, you first glue the top flat to the neck (in line).
Then you build face down keeping firm the top over a solera which is made allowing for the right neck ANGLE (by planing down the neck ramp accordingly). After having glued the sides to the top with tentelloned you close the box, by gluing the back: the neck angle is now naturally set as the neck cannot move anymore. It’s to be noticed that the cuts on the blank neck for the sides are usually made at 90 degrees, hence you practically end up having bent a little the sides to let the neck tilt forward.
The maker ends up planing down the underneath of the fretboard of 1 mm or so from the 12th to the 19th fret to accommodate the NECK ANGLE.
The difficulty here is that Reyes doesn't taper down the underneath of fretboard, meaning that he achieve the same result in a different way, either by making a concave upper harmonic bar or by shaping the sides profile to accomodate a slight top depression along with the fretboard. I don't know how Reyes does it so mine it's just speculation.

PS: I corrected neck relief with neck angle as suggested by SEden.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2017 7:32:27

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

Echi you are not using the term relief properly. I believe you are simply talking about neck angle which is a way making sure the strings are at the correct heights at the 12th fret and over the sound board all of the way down to the saddle which will also want to be at a certain height over the soundboard.

Relief is the neck BENDING forward, creating an arc in the neck to lessen the buzzing.

I don't know Tom's plan so can't help on that. I've just built a Uke from a plan I got online and it had loads of measurements it was so confusing I wish they had done it like more like the Courtnell plans. The Uke plan is 5 pages of A0 paper!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2017 7:48:53

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Stephen Eden)

You are right Steven, I meant neck angle, thanks for the emendation.

Tom’s plan is well done but being a cad print, doesn’t show either the neck angle or the top and back doming.
It’s not a complain to Tom or Gal as this is a common problem of all the cad prints.
In fact the best plans I saw are those hand drawn (Romanillos and Ramirez for instance: a joy to look at.
My 2 little complains here are that the plan doesn’t use the metric system (which makes it a little complicate for us continental Europeans) and that the bracing pattern is probably exceptional for Reyes too. All in all a good plan though.

My guess about the neck angle is that the all top goes a little down following the fretboard towards the sounhole..maybe this can be done putting a shim on the plantilla (the same method I saw used by Bogdanovich) and therefore the upper harmonic bars should be left flat and not concave. Or maybe Reyes works the underneath of the fretboard just a little and it’s barely noticeable (more likely).
Anyone knows more about it? I don’t know how Reyes does it.

It seems like the plantilla of Reyes is almost flat (for someone 2 mm of doming for someone it’s just normal lift due to the strings tension) and the top goes down 2 mm behind the bridge towards the tailpiece. Also to be considered that the strings are 9 mm over the top at the bridge.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2017 7:51:26

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Or maybe Reyes works the underneath of the fretboard just a little and it’s barely noticeable (more likely).
Anyone knows more about it? I don’t know how Reyes does it.

Some builders just force the fingerboard onto the neck / top and sand the inevitable flip that occurs from the 12th to the sound hole level with the rest of the neck. Essentially removing wood from the top of the fingerboard rather than the bottom. We remove wood from the bottom.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2017 14:24:15

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

And I read in an older thread that Tom did some advanced stuff

This is not necessary, just build to the plan with adjusting the nut to about 2.5 mm higher and then make sure the fingerboard is the same thickness from the nut to the 19th fret. You may have to relieve the sides of the upper bout a little to get a straight board.

This will cause a slight inverted curve in the top from the 12th fret to the bridge, but the top is essentially flat, from the sound hole to the bottom of the guitar, pulled up with a slightly curved bridge. A flat top will produce a better guitar, imo.

You may want to slightly dome the back. Also, the back is tuned to b-flat 2nd string and the top to G-F# 3rd to 4th string

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2017 16:21:14

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

The Uke plan is 5 pages of A0 paper!

That's hilarious. I once took 20 minutes and measured a Martin uke from the 1920's and have used half dozen critical measurement to make several ukes.

As far as gluing on a fingerboard, a first timer should probably develop the skill to sharpen a plane iron, flip the board over and fit it to the neck and top by taking off a little graduated sliver between the sound hole and the 12th fret.

If you don't you're going to have to top plane the board anyway to get out the wobbles and warping so make the job easier for yourself by adapting the board to fit the guitar.

A general rule of building is that when you are learning about a process fit one part to the other part, don't fiddle with them and try to make them meet in the middle. If you do and you're not ready for that kind of work you'll more likely end up with a buttered up mess.

It's a confusing bunch of tasks, but my advice is make the set the angle neck you think will work for that particular guitar and leave it be. Fit the other parts to that body.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2017 23:10:42

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks for the responses.

So if the top is flat and the neck is straight, then the Solera is just a flat surface - No dishing, no angle on the neck, and neck relief is substituted by raising the nut?

Regarding tuning the top , I did see where you said thickness on the Reyes was 2.1mm. Should I take the top down to... 2.5mm? on the drum sander, glue and shape the braces, then tune the top in the mold by sanding the top down by hand and adjusting? Sorry for the novice questions. I'm a novice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2017 1:23:00

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Should I take the top down to... 2.5mm? on the drum sander, glue and shape the braces, then tune the top in the mold by sanding the top down by hand and adjusting? Sorry for the novice questions.

I usually take a semi stiff top and sand it down to 2.3 mm since the inserts between the struts below the bridge seem to keep the top from wrinkling, and then after installing the top and back, sand it down to 2 mm or even 1.9 mm, with a little more under and around the bridge area a little thinner than the whole top. This will improve the string tightness or top timber a little.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2017 1:37:40

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

what has scared me away from building thus far is getting the setup right. I want the guitar to come out so that I have 7-8mm off the deck at the bridge with the right action, and it seems like there are so many variables -neck angle, dome, fingerboard taper, relieving the sides... I suppose the Reyes plan is pretty simple in this regard, and I don't want to be left guessing on How to make it right!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2017 19:44:03

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

Drink a few beers, get some buddies over, make mistakes, fix the mistakes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2017 20:09:56

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

Perhaps you should get help from a builder friend, as any guitar will present some problems.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2017 22:06:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

Drink a few beers, get some buddies over, make mistakes, fix the mistakes.

When I go to a bar in Japan and order a scotch with a beer back they freak out. It's like against the rules to have a beer back, they are into water backs. I'm like how are you going to make enough mistakes unless you power drink? My brother in law is such a sissy, he drinks whiskey with a soda back. So much for the hard living samurai ....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2017 7:00:13

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to estebanana)

I'm still confused on what is meant by Relieving the Upper Bout... as in tapering the sides to lower the neck, or sanding the top to lower the neck- that doesn't seem right?

I've just accepted that I will mess up or possibly fail this time. Just like life and marriage! But there is always Scotch.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2017 14:21:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

I'm still confused on what is meant by Relieving the Upper Bout... as in tapering the sides to lower the neck, or sanding the top to lower the neck- that doesn't seem right?

Jason,

You better get some help. I install my top right side up, not face down on a solera.

So what I mentioned was that I took a little off the edge of the sides across from the 19th fret to even out the fingerboard so that it would be an even thickness from the nut to the sound hole.

This can be accomplished with the solera but let some of the other builders here help you with that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2017 16:32:16

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Thanks Tom, the way I understand it is that because fingerboard is not tapered, you are compensating by lowering it via the sides. I did my best to research this and couldn't not find any examples. Everyone tapers their fingerboard so not much info out there.

I'm planning to use the Online course by Paco Choboro and a Luthier friend, who can help me here and there every week.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2017 17:26:22

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

Jason,

Here is a you tube explanation I have about the top angle:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2017 19:06:52

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

What happened to the other video about guitar making? Did the moderator remove it?

And for what purpose was it removed?

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2017 14:44:08

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

All the posts from the 1st of October got lost. Escribano explained the reason in a 3D you can find in the general section.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2017 15:43:08

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is the video from a series of videos on how to build a guitar. I have taken quite a good look at this and it is very worthy of your consideration.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2017 18:08:02

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Jason,

Here is a you tube explanation I have about the top angle:

Tom,

Since I'm getting ready to finish the neck make a Solera this week for the 2003 Reyes, I wanted to ask you about your method of assembling the guitar right side up because I REALLY want to make sure I get this neck angle correct - or at the very least, some set up that gives me between 7-8mm at the bridge. All the books and video resources that I have use a domed top and assemble face down so I don't have an example for this.

After you position the neck angle with those clamp blocks do you then flip the guitar over so that the top is facing down on the Solera/ work board , giving you access to glue in the tentalones or solid lining? I assume there is no other practical way to do this then to flip the guitar over. I know I could also make a flat Solera with a ramp for the neck angle the traditional way but I like to have access to check it with a straight edge like you do in the video.

Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2018 15:46:36

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

Jason, please forgive me but I don't have the time to keep repeating this formula. Go to my other tutorials on this list as they should have the right angles and everything for you to copy.

I work from this right side up and then turn the guitar over to install the back.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2018 17:40:52

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to Echi)

quote:

As you know the neck/fretboard usually has a slight relief (2.5 mm in this case) to avoid the string buzzing over the frets.

Echi--
You are confusing neck angle with fingerboard relief. The neck angle is so that the bridge saddle doesn't have to be too tall. It has nothing to do with buzzing. Fingerboard relief, which is a hundred times smaller, is to limit buzzing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2018 19:32:53

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

the way I understand it is that because fingerboard is not tapered, you are compensating by lowering it via the sides

Jason-

Be aware that the traditional method of joining the soundboard to the sides involves the soundboard face down on a solera. Tom does it the other way around, which seems a lot harder to me.

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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2018 19:36:49

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Well all your post in the tutorial thread were deleted, but I did follow the link to your website and found pics of how you do it.

Ethan, I had planned on assembling the top on face down, problem im having is to figure out how a way to get the butt end of the top elevated to the correct height. Facing up seems easier to do this with a straight edge, There is no data on that in the plan to indicate this taper amount if I remember correctly, or perhaps I can dome it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2018 0:10:34

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

problem im having is to figure out how a way to get the butt end of the top elevated to the correct height.

I heard Tom say something related to that in the video he posted above. I've never heard of that anywhere else, though I know that Robert Ruck also attaches his soundboards facing up. I think to succeed you have to know exactly what all those gaps under the straight edge should be. The solera method seems much simpler to me--but either way could require some trial and error to get it just right. I wonder what Reyes did.

Let us know how it goes.

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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2018 0:34:35

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

They way I understand is that Reyes supposedly used slightly concave harmonic bars to compensate the neck angle and a fingerboard without a taper. Then, To compensate for a low bridge he added a slight dome behind the bridge. How much dome is needed and how to accomplish this is what I need to figure out.

Do you know what the traditional way is to get a dome behind the bridge? I assume you would have to shape the fan braces in this area with a slight dish behind the bridge. But I also thought string tension does this naturally...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2018 15:27:58

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

Jason,

I build with a flat top but lift it at the bottom about 2 MM and taper it down around the sides to -0- at the line across from the bridge..And Yes the strings do pull the top behind the bridge up a little, as the string tension will rock the bridge forward about .5MM to 1 MM.

You can find some of this in my Rodriguez tutorial.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2018 17:18:12

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Do you know what the traditional way is to get a dome behind the bridge?

You use a dished solera as described in detail in the back section of Making Master Guitars. The fan braces are glued to the soundboard with the soundboard face down on the solera.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2018 18:08:03

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specs in a guitar plan (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

The Solera in the back of the Master Guitars book has the dome deepest directly under the bridge though. If I understand this correctly, The method Tom uses will result in a dome behind the bridge and flat in front. I guess both achieve the purpose of pushing the height of the bridge up. Looking at my Ricardo Sanchis Blanca, I can see that the top is pretty flat and there is a dome behind the
Bridge. It looks like there is a taper. I'll have to study it more closely.

I would think that if you shim the tail block/lining to extend it by 2mm and taper down towards the bridge, then the bridge will raise by some amount between 0-2mm because of the slope. Or maybe it stays close to 2mm?

Tom, I'm having a look through your tutorial. I'm seriously considering the top up method. Too bad I can't fly out to San Antonio for a lesson. Although it would a good excuse to go to that Mi Tierra's restaurant downtown. Loved their Mole

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2018 15:43:21