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Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is too drunk to be annoyed   You are logged in as Guest
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Stu

Posts: 2061
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is too d... 

Over the years on here, I've seen many disparaging comments directed at the musical genre of hip hop. Whilst I'll admit there's some pretty awful modern music that seems to pass itself off as hip hop these days, at its roots hip hop has more than a fair bit in common with our beloved flamenco.

Love it or hate, I don't really give a ****. Please save any negative comments. Only love here. I just want to share this video. If it's good enough for Paco (we'll his band at least) then it should be good enough for us.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 13:16:56
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1919
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

quote:

If it's good enough for Paco (we'll his band at least) then it should be good enough for us.


??????????????????

Good taste is good taste. And bad...........Weelll, el Cigala is worse.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 14:14:41
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

I think this c*** has been linked to before on the foro.

While about degrading taste over decades of hiphop and techno monotony ... Two days ago there was a TV feature on a guy who sold millions of album copies and whose apparent dedication to Schiller was then performed by support of an orchestra and singers like Netrebko open air in Berlin. Awaiting something demanding, I managed to stand through the first three pieces before switching channel.
(The recording and subtle mix were great, though. What a waste!)

Decades ago musically educated people would had always known to differentiate something musical from a monotonous cacophony. Meanwhile not absolutely anymore.

I was bewildered already in the eighties, when some surrounding studio folks were raving over (formerly rock´n roller) Tina Turner´s shallow disco hits of that time, but now you can have members of classical orchestra delightedly swaying over typical techno sequence, that is like one bar taken out of context and refusing to advance and merge into a structure. Like say a longjumper presenting nothing but the run-up in loops (with some one-finger tootling laid over the sound carpet).

Yes, taste is a matter of resource; and meanwhile you can obviously even study classical music and stay musically frigid still.
Amazing what bungler genres have led to.


"Love" for what?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 15:13:03
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3321
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

quote:

Whilst I'll admit there's some pretty awful modern music that seems to pass itself off as hip hop these days, at its roots hip hop has more than a fair bit in common with our beloved flamenco.


It's not modern music that "seems to pass itself off as hip hop these days" that's pretty awful; in my opinion it's hip hop itself that's pretty awful. Sorry, but hip hop does not have "more than a fair bit in common with our beloved flamenco." Not by a long shot. If you are a fan of hip hop, fair enough. To each his own. But please don't insult flamenco by lumping it in with, and claiming it has much in common with, hip hop.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 16:11:29
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

has been linked to before on the foro.

yes ... seen it .. quite a few years ago now ...I think i remamber who put it up then too ...

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 16:39:18
 
Piwin

Posts: 3406
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

Best to put a protective cup on when you post something like this here

I love those random moments where an odd assortment of people come together for a short moment. But anyways, we are where we are, and here this video will bring out the sneering while a video of Paco singing drunk dick songs will get loud praise. So goes it.

A lot of the gitano kids here seem to like rap and quite a few of them mix it up with flamenco. Can't say I enjoy that particular mix myself but well, who care if I like it or not! Got to say though, it's happened to me once in a juerga where someone started rapping and man did that take me off guard. Not sure how you accompany that on flamenco guitar, so I just continued playing the same basic compas all the way through. Pretty sure it sounded like sh*t but it was fun. It had the added benefit that since no one else knew how to accompany that, no one could criticize my playing

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 16:58:02
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3321
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

A lot of the gitano kids here seem to like rap and quite a few of them mix it up with flamenco.


I have no doubt that is true. And it is one reason why even in Andalucia the future bodes ill for flamenco, as an ever-shrinking cohort of aficionados who appreciate the real thing (even in its more "modern" version) mount a rear-guard action to save it from the homogenized drivel that results from the insidious importation of elements like rap and hip hop into the genre. Unfortunately, valiant as it may be, the rear-guard action will fail, as it will be overwhelmed by those shallow souls who, like lemmings following each other off a cliff, strive to outdo each other as to who can be more (here you can fill in the blank: "different," "experimental," "with it," etc.)_________ .

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 17:35:45
 
Piwin

Posts: 3406
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to BarkellWH

Maybe it is just shallow kids trying to outdo each other. But part of me thinks that they're just trying to express what living in a poligono is like, and traditional flamenco isn't really the right tool for that.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 18:07:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13410
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=199192&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=paco%2Crapper&tmode=&smode=&s=#199192

And more on the subject of flamenco rap connection:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=285326&mpage=2&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=krump

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2017 21:25:48
 
Stu

Posts: 2061
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to BarkellWH


RYTYHM, POETRY oppression, minority, ghettos, anger, sadness, dancing, happiness, family, drugs, fun, group dancing, bravado, love, passion, food.... Etc etc

I could be describing either. I'm not just taking about the music, I'm talking about the culture which is in twined with and gave birth to that music. If you don't see the simularities then you're plain ignorant. In a nice way. If anything comes that deep from the heart who is anyone to dismiss either as rubbish, nonsense, garbage??

I'm not saying anyone has to like it. That would be ridiculous.
I'm just saying have some respect for other art forms. Cos real artists and music lovers do.

Yeah not really up for the flamenco/hip hop mix tho. I must admit. Apart from in the vid. Haha
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2017 18:17:53
 
pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

Sorry but this is total trash.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2017 19:42:32
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2955
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

On the topic of flamenco and hip hop...
You know those chills you get when you hear music that's really profound and the hair on the back of your neck stands up? I get them through my whole body and I consider it basically biological proof that I'm listening to good music. I can get those from a few songs in almost any genre but by far the two genres that do it for me the most consistently are:

1. Gangsta rap (pretty much has to be the hard stuff, especially from "back in the day" e.g. Notorious BIG, Nas, Tupac, early Eminem, etc.)
2. Flamenco

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2017 20:08:46
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3321
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

quote:

I'm talking about the culture which is in twined with and gave birth to that music. If you don't see the simularities then you're plain ignorant. If anything comes that deep from the heart who is anyone to dismiss either as rubbish, nonsense, garbage?? I'm not saying anyone has to like it. That would be ridiculous. I'm just saying have some respect for other art forms. Cos real artists and music lovers do.


I will ignore the ad hominem attack, Stu, and chalk it up to having a bad day. Nevertheless, just because something comes from a certain segment of someone's "culture" and comes from the "heart" does not in and of itself make it good music or art. As for having "respect for other art forms," many of us have the greatest respect for other art forms. that does not mean that all art forms are equally valid and interesting. A lot of art forms and music produced today are junk. There is nothing wrong with discriminating among those that one considers worthy and those that are not. That is a decision that rests with the individual and will vary according to one's experience and taste. To make such distinctions indicates an active mind. To fail to make such distinctions indicates the opposite.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2017 20:12:14
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 730
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

Flamenco has always ventured into bad, mad and dangerous places, sometimes coming out changed. It’s what makes it a living art. The alternative is to preserve it as it is and kill it.

Of course if you want to preserve it you need to work out where and when it all started to go downhill. Was it when the guitar was introduced? Was it when Ramon Montoya took every falseta he had ever heard, turned them into solo pieces and crept off to Paris to record them? After this, it was immensely frustrating for singers to be interrupted by guitarists all the time.

Stuff comes and goes just like castanets. In the swinging sixties dancers were cutting their dresses shorter to reflect the fashion for mini-skirts. It was ugly. It didn’t last.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2017 21:21:01
 
Piwin

Posts: 3406
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Andy Culpepper

quote:

I get them through my whole body and I consider it basically biological proof that I'm listening to good music


I like this. I'm one of those who tends to (over-) intellectualize things. I get the feeling that it sometimes gets in the way of what should be the simplest question: do i like what I'm hearing?
Lately I've been working on deciphering a few songs from Jacob Collier. It's like music theory on steroids, so it's an interesting exercice. But, honestly, I really don't like his music at all! But then I have to admit to myself that I actually like Taylor Swift better than Jacob Collier, who really is an accomplished composer and musician, and that's just embarassing so at that point my ego kicks in and tells me to like what I don't like and not like what I do like. Overintellectualizing yet? Well I haven't mentioned the Apollonian vs Dionysian dichotomy which is clearly at the root of this "debate" here, so I guess I'm still in the clear, sort of.


If I want chills right away I need some dubstep. Or RATM, that'll do it for me. A good strong rythm is a whole lot better for goosebumps than anything melody or harmony could ever do.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2017 22:47:43
 
orsonw

Posts: 1568
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Andy Culpepper

quote:

...the Apollonian vs Dionysian dichotomy which is clearly at the root of this "debate" here..


quote:

You know those chills you get when you hear music that's really profound and the hair on the back of your neck stands up?


Research suggests not everyone experiences this physiological response; depending on the study, estimates of 55% to 86%. So most of us get the Apollonian and Dionysian. For the remaining third they have to make do with the Apollonian only.

For 'chills' it seems we need both the Apollonian and Dionysian, the frontal cortex and the limbic - well the whole nervous system and I suggest the whole body.

This study suggests it's more than an unconscious response- "cognitive attentiveness to music may be more closely related to frisson"
Getting aesthetic chills from music: The connection between openness to experience and frisson Mitchell C. Colver, Amani El-Alayli 2015 journal Psychology of Music
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0305735615572358

More on physiology and anatomy here:
Anatomically distinct dopamine release during anticipation and experience of peak emotion to music Salimpoor et al Nature Neuroscience 14, 257–262 (2011) doi:10.1038/nn.2726
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v14/n2/abs/nn.2726.html?foxtrotcallback=true


Opinion article here:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2016/05/getting_chills_when_listening_to_music_might_mean_you_re_a_more_emotional.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2017 7:20:52
 
Stu

Posts: 2061
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to orsonw

Believe it or not, I don't even really like hip hop. I did once for a little while, but I haven't listened to a hip hop track in many years.


Whatever the genres, how anyone can get upset or angry at a group of musicians jamming, getting down, playing together and clearly having a fantastic time is beyond me.

I mean who cares if you don't like the music. I don't particularly like the 'music' (material) in that video. What I do like though, is the connection, between people, cultures and genres that rarely collide.
If fellow humans are clearly having a good time when connecting through music, then a guy rapping over some country western guitar, a violinist playing with a guy on a pop synthesizer, a metal guitarist and an African drummer then you're a fool if you wanna piss on that bonfire. (not directed at anyone specifically, no personal attack intended)
If the musicians are smiling and connecting then how can you be upset by such a thing??

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2017 10:14:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13410
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Andy Culpepper

For me I like many different genre's, I tend to gravitate with pride to the more obscure, lesser known or popular material, though I am quite proud when these type of artists make it big in other ways. For example, hearing PDL on the radio with Bryan Adams was really cool IMO, despite the obvious commerciality and all that goes with that good and bad.

I would have to say the two most grounded genres that get me are flamenco and 80's metal. I admit when I was a kid I was really into Rap....again it was underground and I took it with pride that I had memorized obscure rap artist material that I thought were not mainstream. Ice-T for one from Breakin, nobody knew that stuff back then...then after Run DMC it started to go mainstream, even Ice T became a movie star and it was all down hill for me from there. 2Live Crew was pretty much the beginning of the end of what I would consider the "art" of the genre, nasty as they wanna be with the narrow low class sex/drug topic and the sampling crap. Of course they were great aficionados of tasty rock guitar, but it was just bad taste IMO. Then it was all over M tV and while there was hints of cool collaborations such as anthrax and Public enemy, the inevitable trashy "gangsta rap" that took over mainstream was just not inspiring, in fact, embarrassing IMO. I can understand folks relate to school and friends as with any pop music of their time and can get those cool vibes but that's about as far as I can relate to the appeal. But it's probably my generation is the main thing.

The jazz flamenco connection really begins with Miles Davis specifically, who really had an affinity for it. Of course he became a fusion pioneer soon after that specific connection was made in the late 50's and 60's. I get the connection to guitar of course, but as for the singing, the thing that I was able to relate to about the cante as a foreigner is my appreciation for the wailing powerful expressivity of heavy metal vocals....the rhythm and control and range, the emphasis on being born with a certain timbre, the need to project the voice, the fact it is not a "polite and pretty" to general public way to sing a melody, raw and ugly at times in order to deliver the lyric that might not be about love, etc. I made an immediate connection that I know most folks would never make, but that's just me. It's also why I might gravitate toward certain cantaores vs others I think.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2017 12:06:45
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw



Research suggests not everyone experiences this physiological response; ...


Mentioned it before on the forum.
Wanting to introduce unknown kind of music to individuals who were grown up with another genre of very limited harmonic and rhythmic range, I put Pink Floyd´s "Wish you Were Here" album on the turn table, cranked it up and let them alone.

Observing them from a far, it showed from start that they weren´t enjoying much. Afterwards, asked how they liked it, they said something to the extent of that in this music there somehow were played "wrong notes".

They showed insensitive to any rhythmically and melodically rich music that had thrilled the world before (yet, had not been aired in the secluded cultural realm of these listeners).

The more musically scarce the resource individuals grow up with, the rather limited their musical sensors appear to be ending up.
-

In view of rhythm: First of all I think that it makes sense to distinguish that there exists a trivial and monotonous sort, which any running diesel engine alikes can give, and rhythm that animates through diverse kinds of related structure.

The first kind of rhythm will animate brain response that triggers trance, and which is commonly used by shamans and similar spiritual performers in order to transfer themselves into an enraptured state of mind. (Accidentally, there was a TV docu about it just last night, claiming that all ancient cultures had been fancying the same kind of chimera creatures in trance.)

With frequent exposure to monotonous signal, brain function will degenerate as well however. The basic cerebral formula being, what goes in will come out. Complexity / systematics being fuel.

A circumstance that is being used for torturing political prisoners too. When they come out from a long time exposure to monotonous audition their intellectual state will have degraded correspondingly. (And if the monotonous content contained absurd message, it will have been absorbed on top.)

Monotonous rhythm (with no or little melodic content) certainly does produce an emotional state of mind. It is however different source and effect, from phenomenon with music.
-

Where there is not understood why establishing of undemanding trends and "art" makes reason to worry, there is no understanding of relevance of culture.

Culture is every bit that makes humans. No random occurrence that may either be trivial or sophisticated and not be mattering anyhow.
-

Check out cultures with simplicistic music structure and those with complex ones, and then look at their individual state of civilization. There are pretty obvious parallels.

There is being observed how varying kinds of music correspondingly effect life stock and even agrarian product.
How on earth could level of consumption and produce be regardless to humans?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2017 13:16:35
 
Piwin

Posts: 3406
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

For 'chills' it seems we need both the Apollonian and Dionysian


Thanks for the recommended reading orsonw. This is very interesting to me. I would have assumed that we were all capable of it, just some more than others, and more importantly I would have assumed that it was purely Dyonisian. This makes me reconsider.

@Ruphus We also use isolation as punishment for prisoners. And yet now the evidence is piling up on the many benefits of spending long durations of time in isolation, doing what they call meditation. Basically put, I don't think this example says anything about the effects of "monotonous music" at all. It all depends on how individual human beings frame it. With the exact same intensity of pain, if you associate the pain with exercice and health, you'll probably enjoy the sensation. Associate it with disease, and you'll hate every single bit of it. Anyways, if the point is that overexposure to monotonous music can be bad for you, as in being locked up and having to listen to the same thing over and over again for days on end, then I'd just quote what Stephen Fry tells Hugh Laurie when he asks whether "too much" of these "herbal cigarettes" are bad for him or not:

-"Well of course too much is bad for you, that's what "too much" means you blithering ****. If you had too much water it would be bad for you, wouldn't it? "Too much" precisely means that quantity which is excessive, that's what it means. Could you ever say "too much water is good for you"? I mean if it's too much it's too much. Too much of anything is too much. Obviously. Jesus."

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2017 14:51:13
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2955
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to orsonw

Interesting stuff, thanks Orson.

To me the frisson is basically comparable to the idea of duende. I guess Biggie's flow has duende, to me at least.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2017 15:38:55
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

We also use isolation as punishment for prisoners. And yet now the evidence is piling up on the many benefits of spending long durations of time in isolation, doing what they call meditation. Basically put, I don't think this example says anything about the effects of "monotonous music" at all. It all depends on how individual human beings frame it. With the exact same intensity of pain, if you associate the pain with exercice and health, you'll probably enjoy the sensation. Associate it with disease, and you'll hate every single bit of it. Anyways, if the point is that overexposure to monotonous music can be bad for you, as in being locked up and having to listen to the same thing over and over again for days on end, then I'd just quote what Stephen Fry tells Hugh Laurie when he asks whether "too much" of these "herbal cigarettes" are bad for him or not:

-"Well of course too much is bad for you, that's what "too much" means you blithering ****. If you had too much water it would be bad for you, wouldn't it? "Too much" precisely means that quantity which is excessive, that's what it means. Could you ever say "too much water is good for you"? I mean if it's too much it's too much. Too much of anything is too much. Obviously. Jesus."


Effects through isolation are rather well known. Also chosen isolation for means of recreation in view of effects depends on conducting state of mind. It can either mean relaxation or dullness, which are very different states from each other. ( https://books.google.com/books?id=7mzuv9KdirwC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=effects+of+monotony+on+brain&source=bl&ots=JGzErrnz_C&sig=Vy3l7bCkLFBadSwwV1lgvoXGWtE&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiX5Z3jhKXWAhXmPZoKHW_HBOgQ6AEIbjAJ )

I am all with your quoted example of overdose, however it won´t do in conjunction with discussed exposure in culture. As any low-time will be less time of distinction and cognition.

In each period of sleep the brain sorts meaningful input. The less there has been over the day the less it can store. It starves. Diversity, systematics and distinction are brains food.
Any measure of monotony can only be feed to dullness and neurosis. There is no benefit and advance of it anytime.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2017 16:21:27
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3321
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

quote:

Whatever the genres, how anyone can get upset or angry at a group of musicians jamming, getting down, playing together and clearly having a fantastic time is beyond me.


I don't think anyone commenting on this thread is "upset" or "angry" at them. In my case, I am simply expressing my opinion of rap and hip hop, and the negative effect it would have on flamenco were it to seriously influence the genre. As I mentioned in a comment above, just because some element of music or art relates to someone's "culture" or comes from the "heart" does not render it immune from criticism. Critical thinking and judgment is what separates human beings from your average orangutan.

It is clear from the comments on this thread that we have very different reactions. Nevertheless, each individual's reaction is a product of his experience and taste, and those in turn influence how he views the genre, in this case rap and hip hop. It would be a pretty dull world if we all agreed on issues such as this.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2017 16:55:42
 
Piwin

Posts: 3406
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Any measure of monotony can only be feed to dullness and neurosis


I don't know. I tend to think that nothing is inherently monotonous and it is all a matter of, like you said, state of mind. It's the "cognitive attentiveness" mentioned by orsonw. And once you're attentive, you can extract as much meaningful input from something simple than from something complex. Kids don't seem to mind repetition. But I guess as we get older we get jaded and stop paying attention as much so the feeling of monotony sets in easier.

In ZMM, Robert Pirsig even argued that you could extract more meaning from the simple than from the complex. He tells the story of one of his writing students who wanted to write a 500-word essay about the US but found that she didn't know what to write, that she had nothing to say. So he told her to limit the scope to just one city. She still had nothing to say. So he told her to limit the scope to just one street in that city. Still nothing. Then to limit the scope to one building. At the end of this back and forth, she starts writing about just one brick of one building of that one street in that one city of the US and she has so much to say that her 500-word essay turns into a 5000-word essay. Pirsig argues that focusing on the simple, on the seemingly boring, forces you to find something original to say. The student had a hard time saying anything about the US because she had already heard so many things about the US that she felt everything she could say would just be repetition of something she had heard. But she'd never heard anyone say anything about that single brick so the floodgates of creativity opened wide. Don't know how relevant this example is since I suppose it's more about output than input. But for some reason it came to mind. Anyways...

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2017 17:17:48
 
Stu

Posts: 2061
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

don't think anyone commenting on this thread is "upset" or "angry" at them. In my case, I am simply expressing my opinion of rap and hip hop, and the negative effect it would have on flamenco were it to seriously influence the genre. As I mentioned in a comment above, just because some element of music or art relates to someone's "culture" or comes from the "heart" does not render it immune from criticism. Critical thinking and judgment is what separates human beings from your average orangutan.

It is clear from the comments on this thread that we have very different reactions. Nevertheless, each individual's reaction is a product of his experience and taste, and those in turn influence how he views the genre, in this case rap and hip hop. It would be a pretty dull world if we all agreed on issues such as this.

Bill


Couldn't agree more.
I must make clear. I never meant to imply that I thought hip hop should influence or be involved with flamenco in any way other than fun like that video. I would hate that!!

I don't think any art is above criticism either. It's essential. I just meant that art forms such as flamenco, hip hop, jazz, what have you should be respected when being criticized and sweeping emotional statements that amount to 'slagging off' should be avoided. (Not that that's really happened here, just in the past.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2017 11:08:19
 
kikkoman

 

Posts: 108
Joined: Nov. 19 2009
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Ricardo

Have you listened to any of the new Kendrick Lamar albums like DAMN? Kendrick is absolutely a master of his medium and imo an absolutely pivotal artist of the genre.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2017 4:50:17
 
Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

quote:

Stu



you are a legend man,

old time member? how you doing man!!!!

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Bahrain is my country and Andalucia is my dream
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2017 9:36:46
 
Stu

Posts: 2061
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to kikkoman

No I haven't heard any Kendrick Lamar. Although my best pal says the same as you about him.

I rarely listen to anything other than flamenco these days. And a bit of smooth or classical fm when I'm trying to relax my baby.

Yo haitham!! I'm no legend. Haha. Just an old member who's trying to fill a flamenco void by getting invoiced here again.

Glad you're still here. We should get an online foroflamenco reunion going! On here, So no pressure to go anywhere. Just get everyone to show up on here for a day or two.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2017 20:28:53
 
Gabewolf

 

Posts: 67
Joined: Feb. 12 2016
From: Cleveland, Ohio

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu


RYTYHM, POETRY oppression, minority, ghettos, anger, sadness, dancing, happiness, family, drugs, fun, group dancing, bravado, love, passion, food.... Etc etc



I agree Stu, I was just in Andalucia for the first time this summer and the parallels between flamenco culture and hip-hop culture are apparent. Living in Cleveland, which has a huge rap scene, I have made similar conclusions upon arriving back to the US about the connections between the two art forms. Many have denounced hip-hop as a music due to it's lack of virtuosity or talent, I would like to make the point that the genre is only a half century old, compared to flamenco, which is at least two centuries old and has had much more time to develop. Also, I think many have diminished the talent of rappers due to their distaste of the music or content, but rapping well is actually very difficult, especially if you get into freestyle rapping. When I was a teenager I spent a lot of time trying to rap, but failed horribly and went back to playing rock n' roll.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2017 21:18:37
 
estebanana

Posts: 8342
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Duquende loves hip hop!! Or is t... (in reply to Stu

I remember this because it happened in Oakland, I think it was 2012 after Paco concert at the Paramount Theatre. I was at the concert a drove by the burger place on my way home. They were standing out there. As I heard from the friends who ended up at the after party with the band, they loved it.

Some of ya'll need to pull the stick out yo aszz.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2017 22:40:21
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