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What beat does this bulerias start on?   You are logged in as Guest
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Gabewolf

 

Posts: 67
Joined: Feb. 12 2016
From: Cleveland, Ohio

What beat does this bulerias start on? 

Hello! This is from the Pepe Habichuela book, sorry for the messy pen scribbles. I was trying to figure out what beat that first 8th note rest lands on, and it seems to be on the one, not the 12. Am I correct? Is this a common way to begin bulerias? I always was told it has to start on 12, should I play a golpe on the 12 beat before that rest? Sorry for the dumb questions, I am just now leaning how to read music and I'm trying to connect it to my flamenco studies. Thank you!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 28 2017 23:57:47
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Gabewolf

The first rest is on 1.
The golpes are on 3, 6 and 12 on both lines. Can use those as a reference.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2017 0:04:52
 
Gabewolf

 

Posts: 67
Joined: Feb. 12 2016
From: Cleveland, Ohio

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

The first rest is on 1.
The golpes are on 3, 6 and 12 on both lines. Can use those as a reference.


Thanks! kinda what I figured, was just a little thrown off and wanted someone with some more experience to weigh in!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2017 0:10:20
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Gabewolf

Bulerias starts whenever it starts, the "basic musical phrase" is 12 beats long and generally "starts on 12" but when you're starting a song you can do whatever you want as long as you actually PLAY BULERIAS if that makes any sense.
On the type of phrase above I notice I golpe with the pad of my finger before it starts, it doesn't make sound and I'm not sure if it's technically "right" but it feels good and helps me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2017 0:56:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Gabewolf

The way he is coming in HAS to be felt off of the 12 before it (groups of 3 subdivisions, he feels the first and comes in on the second group of 3). Otherwise counts 1 and 2 are expressed normally, as a llamada. Simply notating this way is misleading and you have every right to be confused by it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2017 17:01:13
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Gabewolf

Back in the old days it was not uncommon introductions and falsetas started on beat 1 but because it's tempting to start things on a accented beat rather then a silenced one over time beat 12 became pretty popular as the start of new beginnings.

Still, every professional can play you this famous intro that starts on beat 1:


--0-------0-------0-------0------0-------0------0------0------0------0-----0------0------
--2-------2-------2-------2------2-------2------2------2------2-------2----2------2------
--2~2----2~2----2~2---2~2---2~2----2~2---2~2---2~2---2~2---2~2--2~2--2~2---
--2-------2-------2-------2------2-------2------2-------2------2------2-----2-----2---
--0-------0-------0-------0------0-------0------0-------0------0------0-----0-----0----
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--1.........2.........3........4........5.........6.......7........8........9.........10......11...12...etc


with golpes on 3, 6, 8, 10, 12


Another standard intro starts on beat 2 (well sort of since the that 2th beat involves a coloring eami rasguado which is timed in such a way the final index stroke matches beat 2.


--->>>0-----0------->>>0-----0--------->>>-0----------->>>0----------------
--------2-----2-------------2-----2---------------2-----------------2---------------
--------2-----2-------------2-----2---------------3-----------------2---------------
--------2-----2-------------2-----2---------------2-----------------2---------------
--------0-----0-------------0-----0---------------0-----------------0---------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..........2......3......4........5.......6......7...........8........9...........10......11.....12



another famous intro is this one played by Paco de Lucia


--0-----0-----0-------------------0-----0----0-----------------------------
--2-----3-----5-------------------2-----3----5-----------------------------
--2-----0-----0-------------------2-----0----0-----------------------------
--2-----3-----5-------------------2-----3----5-----------------------------
--0-----1-----3-------------------0-----1-----3----------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
..10....11.....12....1.....2....3....(4......5......6.....7.....8........9..........)


--0-----0-----0---------0--------0--------0-------------0-----0--------------
--2-----3-----5---------4--------3--------2-------------3-----2--------------
--2-----0-----0---------0--------0--------2-------------0-----2--------------
--2-----3-----5---------4--------3--------2-------------3-----2--------------
--0-----1-----3---------2--------1--------0-------------1-----0--------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..10......11....12...1....2....3....4....5.....6...7....8......9.....10


One could argue if it starts on beat 10 or on beat 12 (10, 11 12 feels like TO THE 12). Paco himself for one reason or the other adds 2 extra beats before the final 9>10 ending which is copied by many including myself :-).*

* edit: the video Dudnote posted down below made me realize that above PDL intro does not start on 10 but on 2 (the equivalent of 8) which goes highly against my "pattern recognizing" feeling but is still very undeniable. It also explains the 2 "extra " beats.

So there are various ways to start and i guess with good taste and compas knowledge everything is possible.


As far as annotating flamenco is concerned, unfortunately there is no consense in how to deal with annotating flamenco so various people use various methods to annotate the rhythm some of which are not very clear compas wise. I encountered partitures were every note was annotated in is individual length with no visible compas or even beat relation at all and sometimes partitives can be (partially) wrong as well.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2017 21:31:21
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1800
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Gabewolf

Here's Ramon with Camaron starting at 2... (7:40)


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2017 22:46:13
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

Here's Ramon with Camaron starting at 2... (7:40)



Never heard that one before and it turns out to be a valuable eyeopener for me :-). It's basically the same one as the one of Paco de lucia i mentioned above (the one i claimed started on beat 10 and having a mysterious compas mistake at the end) but after watching this video i have to conclude that one starts on beat 2 (or it's equivalent 8) as well :-).

So that's one of the dangers when you feel patterns and pair them to "things you heard before", especially when it's an introduction and you have no reference of where it begins. I made mistakes like that before but they were always recognized and corrected by my father or Paco Peña. In this case for some reason i've always kept adding these 2 "extra" beats, despite Paco Peña telling me i shouldn't (well, if you also want to copy his mistakes...).

It still feels very strange to me to accept it starts on 2 (or it's equivalent 8) because to my ears it really goes against how things are normally dropped within the "*-*-*-" pulse. I can't deny that Ramon's continuation paired to Paco de Lucia's solo version unmistakably show that to them it does indeed start on 2 (or 8) but in all honesty (and i know this sounds ridiculous) like Paco Peña i wonder if it might or might not be a family habit/mistake (both Paco Peña, Vicente, Riqueni and Moraito were caught on making compas mistakes at least once in their life so it can happen to the best).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 30 2017 6:22:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Erik van Goch

Actually, the earlier pattern you said "sort of starts on 2" is a similar pattern to the above, but actually "sort of" should tell you something about all of these. They ALL start in same spot as original post transcription (accent between count 1 and 2, pull off to beat 2 proper), such that it's rasgueado starting there ending on beat 2. (In case of PDL intro to punta del faro, he repeats unnecessarily the Bb-B-C chord riff, which by itself constitutes a half compas. With no repeat and going right to the decending riff you have a neat cuadrao phrase).

Point being these are ALL felt off of the 12 accent, unlike starting on 1 for a llamada, and if you check you probably missed the golpe on 12.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=178199&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=punta%2Cdel%2Cfaro&tmode=&smode=&s=#178199

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 30 2017 17:15:45
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Actually, the earlier pattern you said "sort of starts on 2" is a similar pattern to the above, but actually "sort of" should tell you something about all of these. They ALL start in same spot as original post transcription (accent between count 1 and 2, pull off to beat 2 proper), such that it's rasgueado starting there ending on beat 2. (In case of PDL intro to punta del faro, he repeats unnecessarily the Bb-B-C chord riff, which by itself constitutes a half compas. With no repeat and going right to the decending riff you have a neat cuadrao phrase).


Half compasses don't often put me of track especially since i tend to feel 6 beat chains that might or might not pair to become a full compas. The example i gave that "sort of" starts at beat 2 to me very much follows the basic compas with accents on 3,6,8,10 and 12.

The intro of punta del faro however to me feels like a totally different pattern. Despite the introducing golpe i've always felt the A>Bb>C part as 10>11>12 and the final C>B>Bb>A part as 12>2>4/6, like it is done in many lines that to my ears seem similar. In that case the top chord C does match beat 12 and 6 so i'm highly surprised to discover it actually are the golpes that drop on beat 6 and 12 in this variation. To my ears the hole thing drops into standard bulerias compas significantly different as seemingly "similar" lines popping up in bulerias like the ones mentioned below that (as far as i can judge) all seem to follow my assumed 10>11>12 pulse one way or the other (the first one unfortunately starts in a bit unclear waters compas wise but when i start counting 10>11>12 at the matching spot the preceding part totally supports my idea that's indeed 10>11>12).

3:32, 18:54 and 21:44



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 30 2017 20:39:40
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

Here's Ramon with Camaron starting at 2... (7:40)


he starts before 2.

the first rasgueado is like grace notes preceding and then landing on the beat.

already implies starting on 1.

I sort of hear/feel a golpe on the 12 when i hear this as well.

The first time I played it just now I thought he had played a golpe on the 12 to start! and had to watch the beginning a couple of times to check that, no, he actually didn't do that!

(I have it on DVD, but haven't watched/listened to it for a while)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2017 12:12:09
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to Gabewolf

quote:

This is from the Pepe Habichuela book


Both Alain Faucher (affedis) and the Encuentro transcribers notate bulerias in three-four with 4 bars per compas. The "1" is always the first beat of a bar, and the "12" is always the last beat of a bar.

It's just a notation convention, flamenco is not a written form of music, so all transcriptions are interpretations of the original performance (unlike classical where all performances are interpretations of the the composers original score).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2017 12:17:44
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1800
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: What beat does this bulerias sta... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Here's Ramon with Camaron starting at 2... (7:40)


he starts before 2.

the first rasgueado is like grace notes preceding and then landing on the beat.

Yep. That's what I meant. Thanks.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2017 0:14:02
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