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BarkellWH

Posts: 2817
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Elites are a good thing because they hold a special knowledge of skill for the betterment of culture and society. There are those who try to manipulate that mastery into a pejorative offense move and play it as an "us vs. them" situation. That is dangerous because it undermines true elites who have made important accomplishments, who's opinions should be heard and not jammed.


There has been a long history in the United States of anti-intellectualism and anti-elitism. It is best summed up by the ignoramus who when faced with someone of real accomplishment in the arts, science, diplomacy or any other endeavor that requires hard work and effort to master, dismisses it with the phrase, "He puts his pants on one leg at a time just like me." As if he is the equal to an Einstein, a de Kooning, a Kissinger, or a Paco de Lucia because they, too, put their pants on one leg at a time.

It has gotten worse over the last 20 years as overwrought "multiculturalism" has become the coin of the realm. You are considered "elitist" (meant to be pejorative in this case) if you question some of the more outlandish claims made on behalf of minority history in a bid to make them "feel good about themselves." For example, so-called "Afro-centric" studies often makes the claim that Ancient Egypt was a "Black civilization," and even that Cleopatra was a "Black Queen." This is utter nonsense. Cleopatra was a Ptolemy, a Macedonian Greek who ruled Egypt.

Another egregious example is one New York school district that in the 1990s mandated the teaching that one of two main sources of ideas for the United States Constitution was the organizing pact of the Iroquois Indian nation. This is pure twaddle. But it is supposed to make Indians "feel good about themselves," regardless of its complete distortion of history. Of course, to challenge this twaddle is to demonstrate that one is "elitist," in thrall to "Dead White Males."

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2017 17:30:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Actually, the most famous flamenco dancer (well, aside from Carmen Amaya--or are non-aficionados unaware of her anyway?) is, perhaps, an Italian-American born in New York, namely Jose Greco. Funny world.


In fact, a teen-aged Paco de Lucia toured with the Jose Greco Flamenco Dance Troupe in the early sixties. It was around 1963-64, that Paco met both Sabicas and Mario Escudero in New York City while with Jose Greco. Both, of course became something of early mentors to Paco.

Bill


There is a documentary that I was featured in a few years ago called "Sobre Las Olas"....originally the woman who started the project had simply wanted to tell the story of flamenco artists that reside in USA, but along the way the narrative kept coming back to Jose Greco and his influence. So it turns out being a documentary about Greco more than anything else. Myself and only a few others had not a word to say about Greco. I found it quite amusing after all that when La Busqueda came out soon after and PDL describes Greco as a good looking Italian guy that played on all the cliches of spain....in one casual yet truthful statement, basically made a joke out of the entire project I was a part of.

When one's entire artistic existence stands upon such fragile bases, it is obvious to see why egos need to be constructed to protect the foundations.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2017 18:26:49
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1340
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

In fact, a teen-aged Paco de Lucia toured with the Jose Greco Flamenco Dance Troupe in the early sixties.


Yeah, I was fortunate to see them in Boston around 1969. My friend Patsy Kabakov was a dancer in the troup.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2017 18:47:40
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1545
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

PDL describes Greco as a good looking Italian guy that played on all the cliches of spain


This a much broader issue than just Flamenco, of course: popularisers always get stick from the purists*. But as Tommy Makem said, if they’d played Irish music the traditional way, no one would have come.

And many great musicians acknowledge how much they owe to the popularisers — Doc Watson, for instance, always had a good word for the Kingston Trio.

The Lute Society said that after Sting came out with Songs from the Labyrinth, lute sales quadrupled.

*I remember seeing Greco (at the RFH, think) just after I got into Flamenco. The part of the act that impressed me most was a young couple called Carmen & Justo Quintero.

I never saw or heard of them again. Does anyone know any more about them?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2017 19:41:27
 
kitarist

Posts: 541
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

The part of the act that impressed me most was a young couple called Carmen & Justo Quintero.

I never saw or heard of them again. Does anyone know any more about them?


http://sevilla.abc.es/hemeroteca/historico-16-01-2007/sevilla/Gente/huelva-homenajea-hoy-a-los-hermanos-salao-justo-y-carmen_163948102071.html

http://huelva24.com/not/1704/hermanos_salao/



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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2017 20:20:06
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1545
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to kitarist

Many thanks. Good to know that they’re still going (or were until recently, at least); and that Carmen now lives in New York.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2017 21:44:59
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2588
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras
Actually, the most famous flamenco dancer (well, aside from Carmen Amaya--or are non-aficionados unaware of her anyway?) is, perhaps, an Italian-American born in New York, namely Jose Greco. Funny world.


I saw Carmen Amaya in 1962 at the Village Gate in New York City. You didn't have to be an aficionado to know she was something very special. At least I didn't consider myself an aficionado at the time. I didn't like cante. I barely knew the difference between soleares, alegrias, rosas...
All the same compas, right? Well not exactly...

My Army buddy Blackie Acosta (from East L.A.) and I got to the Gate early to get a front row table. About ten minutes before the show started, Sabicas showed up at the next table with the "Reserved" sign on it. He had in tow the usual entourage of young guitar players, but none of the flashy blondes he usually had on his arm--showing respect to Carmen, I guess.

Carmen came out in bata de cola and danced a very slow soleares. She looked old and moved slowly, but you couldn't take your eyes off her. There were rousing cheers and applause as she made her exit.

After a lightning costume change she came back out in pants, boots, and a bolero jacket. She danced a bulerias at blinding speed that rattled everybody's teeth. So much for looking old.

She tore the house down until intermission. Blackie and I had on our good suits and good opinions of ourselves, so we went backstage to meet some of the beautiful young gitanas in the cuadro. We didn't know they were all part of Carmen's family. The girls wouldn't even make eye contact with us. When the men started taking out some really impressive switchblades to clean their fingernails, we decided to head back to our table.

Sabicas, always friendly and congenial, recognized us as regulars at the club Zambra where he showed up for after hours juergas, so he smiled and waved, then asked us how we did with the girls.

Fifty-five years later I still remember Carmen's performance as one of the greatest of any kind I ever saw.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2017 7:42:48
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1340
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Great story, Richard. Thanks for sharing that.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2017 13:51:39
 
Bulerias2005

 

Posts: 556
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

I don't see anything wrong with "elitism" when we're talking about talented, passionate folks protecting an art form that they hold near and dear, preserving it as best they can for following generations and making sure that said generations are 'worthy' so to speak of inheriting it. I am no stranger to harsher teaching methods -- my first teacher is emblematic of a Russian pedagogue. But there also exists a faux-elitism in pockets of talent-deprived areas where self-appointed patriarchs promote a monopoly of ignorance. The problem there is that issues like respect for elders are trumpeted at the expense of objectivity re: what constitutes quality art, whereby said patriarchs are considered paragons of an art form that they actually know very little about, yet are empowered to insist that all ways lead to/through them... when there is an active suffocation of young talent going on, it might be expedient for 'established' artists to point fingers and say that the issue has to do with a lack of respect for elders... at some point, however, I realized that the best thing to do regarding this sort of elitism is to just let things play out... such situations are inherently unsustainable, and eventually a conscious suppression of talent can and will turn into a complete vacuum of talent. Which, hopefully, means that a talented/passionate "elitist" -- probably from another community -- can come in and turn things around!

Edit - To be clear, I am *not* referring to Ricardo's post with my comment re: lack of respect for elders. Your point Ricardo is excellent and completely makes sense... I'm referring more I guess to my own experiences, which have a different context.

_____________________________

Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2017 15:41:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to Bulerias2005

To clarify, there is a certain way to address issues if the elder person is "wrong" in someway, vs how you might approach confronting a peer or student with the same issue. It might be just the way I was brought up or something, but it rubs me the wrong way when I see young people talking either to or about elders on the scene in a condescending manner. For example making fun of some old lady's antiquated dance style/teaching method makes me want to vomit in most cases, funny or not, true or not. Conversely, treating some young arrogant upstart as an equal or placing them on a pedestal for their perceived potential is not helpful to anyone either.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2017 17:16:30
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 429
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

Rather than elitism I think of flamenco as a rare thing that is only appreciated and understood by very few, especially here in the U.S. To say I understand flamenco would not really be true, I am learning to understand it and not being in Spain will never fully understand it. For myself it was an epiphany and I am very committed to it like I am sure most here are.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2017 19:07:57
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 295
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

Elitism is weird concept. My tastes in flamenco are in some ways highly pedestrian - I like what slightly drunk guitarists play while warming up outside the backsteet bars in Jerez, with some rough edges and no fancy jazz sections. Most commercial stuff without a level of 'real' and jaleos and cars driving by, sounds, to me, clinical. But I'm aware that saying I prefer this, I'm also expressing a preference which could be elitist?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 24 2017 0:04:25
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2596
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

there is a certain way to address issues if the elder person is "wrong" in someway


pleeeeease elaborate!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 24 2017 15:43:23

payaso

 

Posts: 72
Joined: Dec. 7 2014
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to withinity

The essence of ‘elitism’, as the word is commonly used today, is disparagement and contempt, accompanied by intimations of superiority. There’s surely lots of that in Flamenco, as in any other art, or indeed any other walk of life.

I am superior to you because I am more genuinely Spanish/gitano/flamenco. I mix/have mixed with the greats. I have more sophisticated/more modern/eclectic/authentic/simpler tastes. I play better/faster/in a more modern/more authentic style. My guitar is an original hand-made instrument/was previously owned by maestro X, unlike your cheap factory instrument. I can/do not bother to read musical notation which is very/not at all helpful for flamenco. Musical theory is good/bad. I have learned directly from great teachers: books/DVDs are useless/only for beginners and will give you bad habits. You cannot understand flamenco if you do not know the Cante/the Spanish language/how to accompany/live in Andalucía, etc., etc,

Could there be any of this on the foro? Surely not!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 24 2017 17:28:37
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 295
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to payaso

(devil's advocate hat on) There is a case that some of the traditionalism creates a fixed ideal of perfect which appeals to old-school stuffy reserved-seating pena-flamenca traditionalista. And is slowly killing flamenco for newcomers.

For example why should a flamenco performance almost always has a circle of people sitting to perform, including the singer/s? Or the weird grimaces singers have to pull.

(/hat off)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 24 2017 19:17:40
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2817
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to payaso

quote:

The essence of ‘elitism’, as the word is commonly used today, is disparagement and contempt, accompanied by intimations of superiority. There’s surely lots of that in Flamenco, as in any other art, or indeed any other walk of life.


You have just described a "faux" elitism that is common among the less-accomplished and exhibited as a superficial means to mask their inadequacies and project a false sense of superiority. The term is also used by the less-accomplished to disparage those who truly are among the elite due to having mastered a difficult field of endeavor through hard work and diligence.

To be among the "elite," properly defined as having mastered a field through diligent application, study, and hard work, is nothing to be ashamed of. It sets one apart from the crowd and generally suggests that one has something to offer humanity that is worthwhile, whether it be in music, literature, art, science, foreign affairs, or any other field of human endeavor. We should be thankful for and honor the truly elite, and we should have nothing but contempt for the "faux" elite, i.e., the second and third-rate types who fraudulently present themselves as "elite," and who disparage the truly elite out of resentment and envy.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 24 2017 20:13:58
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

(devil's advocate hat on) There is a case that some of the traditionalism creates a fixed ideal of perfect which appeals to old-school stuffy reserved-seating pena-flamenca traditionalista. And is slowly killing flamenco for newcomers.


In reality it's the other way around, and the reason "old farts" seem so grumpy to some people is in part the line of great old singers has almost died out..who's left anyway? And the younger generation of greats in the lineage took big hits, Fernando Terremoto, Moraito...See for older aficionados, their entire known flamenco world is all but gone.

The newer ways flamenco is being introduced is making the old Pena way of life diminish, and along with it a lot of tradition. And to put it down is to not recognize that pena institution and the old farts who complain helped keep flamenco going so you could learn about it.

There's a difference between calling out elitism and learning history and respect for that which happened before you were born. Calling out elitism does not automatically make you a 'deeper' person. At the end of the day, calling out elitism in music is a 'first world problem'. Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and let the old farts work it out. If someone is truly abusive, then tell them they are full of it, but if they are kvetching about a world gone by that they lived in, that is possibly a teachable moment for you.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2017 1:45:25

Piwin

Posts: 2179
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to estebanana

Yeah I have a hard time seeing how anyone could argue that penas are "killing flamenco for newcomers".
Without them, there'd be no flamenco to kill in the first place.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2017 2:19:09
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

Speaking of elites, I wanted to remind my San Francisco people that there is a Matisse - Diebenkorn show at SFMOMA.

And what I miss even more than my spot at the bar at Thirsty Bear on flamenco night, is the sophisticated painting and sculpture exhibitions in the greater Bay Area. Please go look at the two great masters.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2017 13:02:21
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2817
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to estebanana

As a feast for the eyes produced by the definitely elite glass and light artist Dale Chihuly, take in his latest exhibit at the New York Botanical Garden. It runs through October 29. I saw a Chihuly glass and light exhibit at the Desert Botanical Garden in Phoenix, Arizona in 2014, and it was spectacular at night with his glass sculptures and interesting internal lighting. He specializes in exhibiting at botanical gardens, and his sculptures bear some resemblance to flora in the gardens. Really interesting.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2017 17:30:44
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2596
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to payaso

quote:

The essence of ‘elitism’, as the word is commonly used today, is disparagement and contempt, accompanied by intimations of superiority.


that sounds like snobbery.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2017 11:21:02
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2817
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

quote: The essence of ‘elitism’, as the word is commonly used today, is disparagement and contempt, accompanied by intimations of superiority.

that sounds like snobbery.


It is snobbery, and it is the "faux" elitism as the term is used by those who cannot tell the difference between snobbery and the truly elite. As to "intimations of superiority," it is a sense of superiority that is totally unearned by poseurs who are elite "wannabes.".

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2017 14:15:33
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

Elitism by definition is the belief that Elites should be in charge of organizations. A person who is elite for some reason is not actually an elitist. Two different things.

The elitist the person who believes all should be subject to the rule of elites. An elite person might think Uncle Charlie who slings hash and eggs at the corner diner is better at running things.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2017 15:38:08
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2817
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Elitism by definition is the belief that Elites should be in charge of organizations. A person who is elite for some reason is not actually an elitist. Two different things.

The elitist the person who believes all should be subject to the rule of elites. An elite person might think Uncle Charlie who slings hash and eggs at the corner diner is better at running things.


Correct as far as it goes. I would broaden the definition, however, to go beyond the belief that elites should "be in charge of organizations" or that all should be "subject to the rule of elites." Elitism to me is the recognition that there are individuals who through hard work, diligence, and application have attained mastery in their chosen fields of endeavor, a mastery that is recognized as being above and beyond the average person's ability in that field.

I have never understood why "elitism" has taken on such a pejorative caste in American society. I tend to chalk it up to the American ideal of "egalitarianism" as being the supreme virtue, even if it hasn't been fully realized; the idea that one person is as good as another. That should be the ideal under the law, the justice system, and opportunity (as opposed to outcome), but it is a recipe for disaster when it comes to science, engineering, literature, art, music, foreign affairs, and any number of other endeavors that require specialized knowledge.

As I mentioned in a post above, I believe Robert Hughes nailed it when he described himself as an "elitist."

"I am completely an elitist, in the cultural but emphatically not the social sense. I prefer the good to the bad, the articulate to the mumbling, the aesthetically developed to the merely primitive, and full to partial consciousness. I love the spectacle of skill, whether it is an expert gardener at work, or a good carpenter chopping dovetails. I don't think stupid or ill-read people are as good to be with as wise and fully literate ones. I would rather watch a great tennis player than a mediocre one."

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2017 17:30:33
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 429
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Richard,

Seems we have a few things in common. I have been working as an engineer (electrical) for 40 years. I have worked with a few Phd's here and there, heck I should and would have one but nobody paid me to stay in school long enough. When I was going to college around 1978 I worked during the summer as an intern at Texas Instruments in Dallas (maybe you have heard of them?) They wanted me stay on and finish college there, but didn't like Dallas nearly as much as San Diego.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2017 20:03:42
 
Leñador

Posts: 5227
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

We keep defining elitist and I'm all for that and agree with the definitions but it's being used in a kind of.....colloquial(for lack of better term) way here.
I'd say it's being used like this:
Elitist: A semi-derogatory term used to describe someone who considers other peoples knowledge of a particular subject as ignorant.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2017 22:04:06
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

I think in the US elite, elitist, and elitism serve different definitions, and there are negative connotations, no doubt. The American culture and society gives varying and complex meanings to elite. There in an implication of racial elitism and the racially elite. It also depends on which culture you are from and whether or not a certain situation takes on a good or bad meaning.

Last winter I met with a former professor who after not having seen him for many years caught me up on his family and life. He mentioned to me his now grown up son's partner, is a woman who is among the elite of Jazz musicians in NYC. As we ate lunch and talked details he dropped into our conversation reminded me of just how elite he actually is, and how he downplays his elitist academic and artistic circles. He's African American and had no problem using elite or being elite in any cultural context. In a racial context he might I speculate, as I had two semesters of his history classes I know a bit about his thinking, give another meaning to elitism in the context of race.

Our usage, at least among the verbally gifted elite is still vital, multi-dimensional and multivalent. And highly dependent on context.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2017 23:45:18
 
Leñador

Posts: 5227
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

I can completely relate to that, I suppose context has a lot to do with it.

I suppose when I'm talking to someone and they say someone else is "elite" I think positive and when they say they are "elitist" I think negative.
Although most the time the average joe uses "elitist" to refer to someone as snobby about a subject when really that person is just nerdy about the subject. The term has never offended me and sometimes I'd even wear it as a badge of honor. "Fine, I'm an elitist, I've spent a ton of time learning about "subject X" so call it whatever you want."

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2017 1:08:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to estebanana

People who think they know everything, are an annoyance to those of us who actually do.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2017 18:43:14
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 295
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

And those who don't. People can wear elitism well and without arrogance or ****lyness. Or be right black plastic things this forum seems to be obsessed with. Sadly, it is the latter trait, combined with an inability to see another's point of view, which gives elitism the bad name for some.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2017 18:58:39
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