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Clint

 

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Joined: Jun. 11 2017
 

New to forum- 18 years old (Picado Q... 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 9:03:50
 
Piwin

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Welcome to the foro!
I have no particular opinion on picado so can't really help you on that.
Can't really tell if you do this already or not from your message, but if you don't, I'd encourage you to listen to more than just solo guitarra. Even if you don't plan to accompany (although that too would be strongly advised for most), it'll help your understanding of the music and how you interpret pieces or compose your own. If you want to stick with the names you mentioned, there's a lot of stuff by Paco accompanying Camaron (de la Isla). For Gerardo there's his CD with El Indio, Carmen Linares, etc.
The other important thing not to forget is that it should always be about the music. You'd be amazed at how many fast picado players there around Madrid and yet 99% will go unnoticed. Then a guy like Diego del Morao shows up and nails it even though is picado is rather unimpressive. Because when it comes down to it, people will care a whole lot more about how good your "cheap melodies" are, and not so much about the technical thrills you throw around it. Anyways, as long as you're aware of that, go for it. Sorry if this sounds glib to you, but a lot of people forget those basics! If you're a speed nerd, check out Rafael Cortes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 9:57:40
 
Clint

 

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I was focused on the solo aspects of flamenco guitar when I posted this, but yes I love to listen to accompaniment flamenco like Estrella Morente, Cameron, and I also enjoy traditional dances. One guy who makes awesome melodies is Paco Peña if you ask me, and he's not PDL fast. Definitely don't want to be a "speed nerd"- but let's face it- speed makes everything better.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 10:04:27
 
Piwin

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

quote:

but let's face it- speed makes everything better.


My girlfriend disagrees.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 10:08:29
 
Clint

 

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Try to stay on topic of things that actually exist
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 10:13:09
 
Piwin

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Ooh snap!
Here's a fun exercice by the guy I was mentioning:
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 10:20:37
 
Clint

 

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Interesting
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 10:22:13
 
Escribano

Posts: 6321
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Welcome Clint. I don't play anymore but I do believe that (very fast) picado is the least important aspect of flamenco, whereas getting into a solid compás with the basic chords and a few falsetas, is the basis of everything.

But, as that is not your question, I will leave it to those who can help

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 10:37:20
 
Clint

 

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Escribano

I have learned Solea, Bulerías, and Tangos. Working on Alegrías
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 10:39:50
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Hey Clint, maybe one serious post as this can change your entire flamenco life experience.

Be careful with putting too much excitement into fast, long picado runs. Yes it makes ppl wow because it sticks out. However, you can get the same wow with e.g. a very good bulerias remate. No picado needed.

I played for a long time and was around in flamenco enthusiast circles quite a lot.. the guy smby show up there is RafaelCortes, he was living 30km from my home and was quite a big influence as I was lucky to know him and run into him every now and then. He has one of the best picados Ive ever seen. And he inspired basically everybody around to work on that kind of picado.

The thing is, picado is just 1% of flamenco and makes 80% of people talking about you being a baller guitarrist if you can pull it off.

However, flmenco at a non pro level doesnt need that.You can even achieve a better experinece of picado runs with 3 finger tirando picado as gerardo nunez once introduced in his material. Its not so much dependent on talent and genetics, but on coordination. And that, you can learn much better with better and quicker results and even for multi purpose as you can use it at many ocassions during playing,than these bad ass picados.

In fact, putting so much focus on that picado was more frustrating than helpful. There were even a bunch of guys whose playing sucked balls but they had a brilliant picado. Such imbalance is not good for enjoying flamenco guitar together.

Better try becoming a round guitar player than focussing on picado. I would even completely skip separate picado practice and focus on all other techniques and compas.

After 5-8 years you might thank me. Youre welcome.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 11:30:59
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

quote:

Many say we are the fastest when we are around 20 years old since our bodies have not degraded yet


Welcome, Clint. You will find a wealth of information on the Foro. As one whose body became degraded long ago, I would note that a very fast picado is the least important aspect of playing. It will impress some (usually non-flamencos) in the way a cheap parlor trick can be entertaining. Far more important, however, is to develop a good sense of rhythm and dead-on compas. The rest will come naturally. The fastest guy in the room is not always the best. And even if he is the best, it's not because of his speed; its' because he plays well with everything in balance.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 11:32:13
 
Clint

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 15 2017 8:06:19
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 11:43:54
 
Clint

 

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

My rasgueado, alzapua, and tremolo are good
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 11:46:03
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Quickest way to get your answers: Write ToddK a pm.

He swiched from plec to fingers in a few months and achived amazing picado results very quickly.

To the asumptions you talked about. I didnt read all your yadayada..too much to read. I give general advice. Thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 11:48:00
 
Clint

 

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Ok thank you. And people on forums always whine about lack of details from authors so I typed away.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 11:52:20
 
Escribano

Posts: 6321
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

quote:

Perhaps someone could answer my questions without making assumptions but maybe I'll just do more research elsewhere.


Going to Granada is a great idea. When you see some kids in the Plaza Nueva strumming on a battered guitar with 5 strings, clapping and singing, it will reset your expectations. I lived there for 3 years.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 11:57:20
 
Escribano

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Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

quote:

Currently my scale runs, such as an E minor scale, are around 145 bpm, 16th notes


Sounds like that's more than fast enough.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 12:06:09
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Well, the thing is that it's really a question for someone who know his stuff about the human body.
I can tell you just from my own experience that I've kept building speed "much" later than 25. Also I'm not sure you should expect to "slow down" after that, more like a really long plateau and slowing down after that. But even then it's more complicated than that. It's more like periods of speeding up, then period of slowing down or plateaus, followed by other period of speeding up, etc. It's not a straight line. How long does it take to reach your max? Probably depends on the individual (yeah I know, everybody hates that answer but I suspect it's true). Maximum BPM? How fast was Rafael Cortes in that Entre dos aguas vid? 190 maybe? Ugh. I'm bad at estimating that, but he's honestly the fastest player I've ever heard I think, though after a certain point it becomes pretty hard to tell.
The other thing is endurance (sorry if I'm just saying things that are obvious to you, but just in case...). It's one thing to hit 160 for a short explosive run like a descending scale and quite another to maintain that speed on longer runs (AND while maintaining the ability to actually add dynamics). Grisha posted a really good exercice on picado endurance. It's somewhere on the foro but I can't seem to find it! I tend to see faster progress on the short explosive picado than on the longer runs. Those seem to take more time to really speed up to a significant degree.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 13:33:16
 
hamia

 

Posts: 382
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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

Currently my scale runs, such as an E minor scale, are around 145 bpm, 16th notes


Sounds like that's more than fast enough.





Yes, and it's very important to try to follow the Metrognome. It's not easy though. I once did this with some success but lost the little bugger at Charing Cross.

(thanks to Kiko for reminding me).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 13:56:45
 
Morante

 

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Hola Clint

I know people who were great players at 14 years, so I think you are probably going to be a great player; I never diss young players: you never know what they are going to achieve.

But these people (Román Vicente, director of music for Farruquito, Keko Baldomero, director of music for Sara Baras) lived surrounded by cante y baile and played for everybody and anything. So, in spite of their age, they are complete artists.

Flamenco is more than guitar, guitar flamenco is more than picado.

Don´t let criticism affect you; if one day you want to be flamenco, you can do it.

If you want to be something else, you can do it.

Suerte y saludos desde Cádiz

Morante
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 15:02:23
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1800
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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
Well, the thing is that it's really a question for someone who know his stuff about the human body.

I know this much about the human body. All is going to depend on Clint's ability to avoid hitching up with women who would have him practice for less than 15 minutes a day. I've met guys who quite flamenco guitar because of a woman who just didn't get it.

Be careful Clint about those dangers!!!

If you can keep practicing 6-10 hours a day you're going to get good. Live that dream!!!

Welcome to the foro. Post some clips of your playing some time.

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Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 16:16:45
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1680
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

In marathon running you can start developing speed at 18 yeard old.
In General 30 is the top, but, the degeneration goes very slow.
On 65, you are still as fast as on your 20tiest.
So in theoretical sence, you can beat the 18 year old self on your 65 birthday.

I do not want to be paternalistic, but you need another mind set.
You want picado, ok.
How fast you want to be in ten years, when you are 28?

245 bpm?

Now you are at 145 bpm, so you need 100 bpm. It is 10 bpm every year, so 1 bpm a month. You have two months left to get steady.
After 10 years you have 245 bpm.

Happy now?

The best mind set is the next: I want to be the best possible flamenco guitarist that is in my power in ten years.
That way you are still playing and enjoying your music in ten years.

Good luck Clint, hope you be here for a long time so we can enjoy your progress. Or your picado, or your flamenco music.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 16:25:44
 
Clint

 

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Awesome answers everyone- well appreciated.

It sounds like the key is looking at the long run of development. I liked the analogy you said of of 1 bpm per month for ten years. I'm definitely in it for the books, although the women issue- Americans typically don't understand it so I'll find one in Granada. Thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 19:17:28
 
kitarist

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RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
How fast was Rafael Cortes in that Entre dos aguas vid? 190 maybe?


Don't know but on the 'ejercicio picado' vid he is around 240bpm (!) However, on that he uses a special technique on a particular scale run that allows for it, although I suspect he can do 200+ with strict alternation as well.

(To original poster): In any case sustained 150+ is plenty (i.e. 600+ strokes/min). The sense of speed is also affected by the rate of change in pitch IMO - fast descending/ascending scales at 150 bpm sound speedier than single string alternation at 10-15% faster bpms. The suddenness of change in speed (in a piece) also contributes to the 'wow' effect - a speedy run just after a moderate tempo melody is much more impressive. So musicality and a sense of 'taste' is at least as important as the raw speed.

Also, in a generally healthy human there is really no such thing as speed topping out at a young age because of continuous physical deterioration after reaching adulthood. It is a brain and muscle coordination issue mediated by lightning-fast electrical impulses and chemical reactions - if you use them, you will not lose them, and will probably get better with smart practice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 21:08:27
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

Re: women, Just have fun for now, till your 30 at least. No one male or female in their 20's really knows what they want out of a partner anyway so just have fun, don't get serious. And BTW, being American in Spain is a disadvantage in the girl department, at least in terms of Spanish women. Maybe you'll run into some hard partying Aussie chicks though.
Can't help with picado though hahahaha

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 21:11:27
 
Escribano

Posts: 6321
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From: England, living in Italy

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Clint

quote:

although the women issue- Americans typically don't understand it so I'll find one in Granada


Try to pick up some basic Andalu (the local idiom) it can help you understand something of what is behind flamenco, but don't expect too much from the Granadinas, they are hard work

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 21:23:18
 
pundi64

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From: Thailand

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Dudnote

My Grandfather was at the age of 95, and had a 60 year old girlfriend, the whole family said she was just after his money, he said not to worry,
that while he already knew this, she was a lot of fun.
So moral of the story is, you do not have to loose yourself, or your interests in life,
while still having lady friends, who also enjoy the fun.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 21:38:00
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Don't know but on the 'ejercicio picado' vid he is around 240bpm (!)


Lol. Told you I was bad at estimating that kind of thing! Yeah I noticed on the slow version that he doubles the finger a few time (whatever you call that, but you know what I mean!) but on the fast version I didn't even try to see if he was doing the same thing.

Most of the time I set my metronome to very slow. The slower the better. Then I work from there with other divisions of time.
And if I'm on a roll, I set it to reaaaal slow and try to play semihemidemisemiquavers. Man I love that word
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 22:21:28
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2854
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Doitsujin

I agree with Doit's post. The tremolo picado can work especially when your IM is bad like mine right now. (I over filed my nails and I'm hurting right now because of it.) Are you reading this Ramzi?😳 But the 3 finger tirando or tremolo picado can be useful as well like in this scenario...


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2017 0:16:50
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: New to forum- 18 years old (Pica... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

And BTW, being American in Spain is a disadvantage in the girl department, at least in terms of Spanish women


I don't know how it is now, but I would have to disagree with you in my case on a two-week visit to Spain in 1965. I was in the US Air Force stationed in Germany and spent two weeks in Spain, one week in Pamplona and one week in Madrid. I was in Pamplona during the Fiesta de San Fermin, and one evening, wandering alone amongst the crowd, I met a couple of Spanish girls who were on their way to a party who invited me to accompany them. We went to a party with only Spaniards in attendance, and there were a couple of guitars there. One of the Spanish girls and I hit it off. I spoke Spanish, so that might have greased the skids. In any case, it was a great party and I felt a part of the group. I have often felt that if one just maintains a low profile but displays some interest in the locals, it is not hard to meet women in Spain, in Mexico, and any other country.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2017 1:12:03
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