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Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

Rocio Marquez canta no sé que 



"Flamenco de hoy".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 13:43:50

Piwin

Posts: 2189
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Morante

That's from almost a decade ago, just wait until you hear her latest CD.
You might want to sit down first though

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Chicken crossing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 13:52:37

Morante

 

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RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Piwin

I have seen her frequently on Canal Sur. Each time worse

Last night they put on la Niña Pastori when she started out, singing tangos por derecho. Just listen to her now!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 13:56:03

Piwin

Posts: 2189
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Morante

hehe.
What I find interesting is that, well, so ok they want to branch out and do something different. That's fine by me but I don't understand why they don't start by exploring the other palos more. They seem to stick to just 5 or 6 and instead of exploring the others they jump straight out of the flamenco box and often just pin a flamenco name on it.
Like this, regardless of whether I like it or not, I don't get why on her CD it's listed as Tangos... confusing


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 14:16:51
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2604
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

hehe.
What I find interesting is that, well, so ok they want to branch out and do something different. That's fine by me but I don't understand why they don't start by exploring the other palos more. They seem to stick to just 5 or 6 and instead of exploring the others they jump straight out of the flamenco box and often just pin a flamenco name on it.



A glance at the photo might suggest that cante is not especially relevant to her life these days. She got her start (at least I first became aware of her) doing very good covers of Antonio Chacon, La Niña de los Peines, etc., but was that cante ever really related to her life except vicariously? And now that she has been a star since adolescence...

If she is truly an artist, she must create according to her own experience. Whether older male aficionados of cante (like us) appreciate her art is a different question.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 15:41:03

Morante

 

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RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Richard Jernigan

El Torta por seguiriyas.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 17:08:20

Piwin

Posts: 2189
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

If she is truly an artist, she must create according to her own experience. Whether older male aficionados of cante (like us) appreciate her art is a different question.


Agreed (except that she's actually a little bit older than me)
And she's been very clear about her approach: "el flamenco como reproduccion no tiene ningun sentido". Which I wish quite a few cantaores who are just trying to sound like Camaron would hear.

I interpreted the photo as a reference to Pepe Marchena, to whom she dedicated that particular CD. For some reason, the sharply dressed white suit makes me think of him (except he always had the hat). But it's true that she's had a certain career and she's also made (IMO smart) choices that mean her lifestyle is probably different than what is usually associated with flamenco.
How the younger artists relate to cante and how cante relates to them is a tricky issue IMO. But it's really a more general issue about art itself and how much of it is "representation" or pretence. A friend of mine who played flute at one of the major orchestras in Paris told me that she approached every piece as theatre and would try to put herself in the mindself required for a given piece, somewhat like an actor. And then there are things like the footage of Antonio Canales dancing Alegrias for a show the night after he learned his father had died. Alegria indeed...
It's a rather strange thing how we relate to different arts. My impression is that most people accept writing as an act of pretence, almost by definition, yet it doesn't seem to bother anyone. But for music it seems to be different. To many people, saying there is pretence in music would somehow shatter the illusion and make the artist seem almost dishonest. And I think that also applies to the artists themselves. A writer is keenly aware that there is pretence in his craft. A musician might struggle more with the idea as she might think of it as a form of dishonesty. In a sense, it's almost as if the relationship of any artist to their art is always vicarious. Then perhaps there are degrees of vicariousness?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 17:53:04
 
hamia

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

And I think that also applies to the artists themselves. A writer is keenly aware that there is pretence in his craft. A musician might struggle more with the idea as she might think of it as a form of dishonesty. In a sense, it's almost as if the relationship of any artist to their art is always vicarious. Then perhaps there are degrees of vicariousness?


I'm very suspicious of fiction books (even non-fiction). The author has too much free rein to be trustworthy. Definitely a meaty topic so I'm waiting for Estebanana to weigh in ...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 19:34:47

Morante

 

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Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

If she is truly an artist, she must create according to her own experience


If she is truly a flamenco artist, she must create according to flamenco experience.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 19:36:26
 
hamia

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

If she is truly an artist, she must create according to her own experience


If she is truly a flamenco artist, she must create according to flamenco experience.


Just spent 30 mins following her around Youtube....whether she's flamenco or not she is a fantastic singer ...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 19:41:24

Piwin

Posts: 2189
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to hamia

quote:

The author has too much free rein to be trustworthy


Now I'm curious!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 20:00:50

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to hamia

It is very interesting that the videos I posted of 2 of the really great cantaores, Juan Villar and Juan Moneo, have received zero interest, while the post of Rocio, who has a great voice, but is a mediocre cantaora, has aroused much interest

This is the "foroflamenco".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 22:32:01
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2604
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

If she is truly an artist, she must create according to her own experience. Whether older male aficionados of cante (like us) appreciate her art is a different question.


Agreed (except that she's actually a little bit older than me)
And she's been very clear about her approach: "el flamenco como reproduccion no tiene ningun sentido". Which I wish quite a few cantaores who are just trying to sound like Camaron would hear.
<snip>
How the younger artists relate to cante and how cante relates to them is a tricky issue IMO. But it's really a more general issue about art itself and how much of it is "representation" or pretence. A friend of mine who played flute at one of the major orchestras in Paris told me that she approached every piece as theatre and would try to put herself in the mindself required for a given piece, somewhat like an actor.
<snip>
In a sense, it's almost as if the relationship of any artist to their art is always vicarious. Then perhaps there are degrees of vicariousness?


I haven't been to Paris in years, so I don't know how the "classical" music scene is going there. It is reasonably vigorous here in Austin, compared to many other places, but commands only a tiny audience relative to that of the vaunted "live music" scene here. I include in the "classical" audience that of the world's largest and most active classical guitar society, which also presents artists like Tomatito and Niño de Pura.

I bring it up because the "classical" musicians are generally obliged to be in the same position as your friend the flutist. No one in the present day can lay claim to the experiences that led to the music of Bach, Beethoven or Brahms, just to name the notorious "three B's" of my youth.

Many more people here would rather hear somewhat simpler musical thoughts on contemporary life than stunningly virtuosic reflections of past glories.

I have said here before that for me one of the great attractions of Willie Nelson is the absolute authenticity of his accent. It reminds me vividly of the rural Texas of my youth, a culture still strongly alive.

Summer before last I attended the whole series of concerts of the Miró Quartet performing the complete String Quartets of Beethoven. At the end of the last one I turned to my companion and said, ¨The world is a better place for Beethoven having been in it.¨ I am aware of being in only a very small minority holding this opinion at present.

As the experiences that led to the creation of cante fade from public consciousness, is it not to be expected that cante itself should follow suit? Since some of it is great art, it may never die out completely, but it may be reduced to an ever smaller audience of connoisseurs. Sorry-- aficionados.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 22:33:02
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2829
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Piwin

quote:

I interpreted the photo as a reference to Pepe Marchena, to whom she dedicated that particular CD. For some reason, the sharply dressed white suit makes me think of him (except he always had the hat).


The white suit makes me think of Tom Wolfe, the literary "enfant terrible" (and social critic) of the 1960s through the 1980s who always wore (and still wears) a white suit. Wolfe has written many books, all of them sharp, incisive critiques of various elements of society, but his greatest was "Radical Chic and Mau Mauing the Flak Catchers," in which he described a party Leonard Bernstein had in his Park Avenue apartment in 1969, with several Black Panthers as guests of honor. Many of his guests were what at that time were known as "Limousine Liberals" who thought it was the height of "chic' to be rubbing shoulders with the Black panthers. The wealthy white liberals were tripping all over themselves wanting to contribute to the Panthers' cause. Wolfe caught the pretentiousness of Bernstein and his white guests perfectly. Marvelous book, and very funny.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2017 22:56:57
 
ViejoAmargo

Posts: 29
Joined: Jun. 29 2016
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to BarkellWH

Morante's video is very "flamenco" by Rocío standards, these days... have you guys seen this monstrosity? (hint: it features Niño de Elche)

https://youtu.be/kALHeH_S3N8

Flamenco critic Manuel Bohórquez wrote a blog article about Rocío about a month ago (revealingly tittled "Rocío Márquez quits cante") http://bit.ly/2q7R54p

And while I'm at it, Bohórquez also just wrote an article about the "popularity" of cante jondo which ties up with this thread (and also ties with Doitsijin's post of yesterday re "Flamenco is dying out"): http://bit.ly/2pps2KZ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2017 4:23:05
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 848
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to ViejoAmargo

quote:

monstrosity

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2017 4:55:08
 
Leñador

Posts: 5228
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Morante

quote:

this monstrosit

Brutal.....That was unlistenable.....she has to be embarrassed by that.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2017 5:05:46

Piwin

Posts: 2189
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Richard Jernigan

@Morante
quote:

Juan Villar and Juan Moneo, have received zero interest,


I think that this sparks more discussion because it's sort of "polemical". I listened to the other vids and enjoyed it. El Torta is up there in my list of people I need to listen to more. I've been going through some Indio Gitano lately and found that he is cruely underrated. El Torta is next on my list.

@Richard Jernigan
quote:

As the experiences that led to the creation of cante fade from public consciousness, is it not to be expected that cante itself should follow suit? Since some of it is great art, it may never die out completely, but it may be reduced to an ever smaller audience of connoisseurs. Sorry-- aficionados.


Of course. I think I was trying to get at the issue of how even the most "authentic" artists of a given genre are in a sense separated from these experiences, except in those rare cases where they are in fact expressing something they are feeling in that very moment. But as usual I'm just bringing up one of those pointless philosophical issues where we could round and round without ever finding an answer.
You're obviously right in saying that some are much closer to the experiences that created cante and as that dissapears, so will cante as we know it.

@ViejoAmargo et al.
I'm no fan of Nino de Elche either, but you guys do realize that the song is meant to make the listener uneasy, right? Apparently it works.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2017 7:25:18
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2829
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Rocio Marquez canta no sé que (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

As the experiences that led to the creation of cante fade from public consciousness, is it not to be expected that cante itself should follow suit? Since some of it is great art, it may never die out completely, but it may be reduced to an ever smaller audience of connoisseurs. Sorry-- aficionados.


As more and more flamenco becomes "fusion," and in order to be "relevant" to today's younger audience's (who haven't a clue regarding the roots of the genre) becomes folded into "World Music," however that is defined at any given time, it will die out as we know and appreciate it. There will always be a small niche for those who love the flamenco we know and appreciate, but it will be so small that, as I mentioned in a previous thread, it will be a sort of living museum, much like the Folger Consort in Washington, DC, who play medieval and renaissance music on period instruments. The Folger Consort has a small but devoted following. So will flamenco as we know it in the not-too-distant future. Performances will be considered "period pieces."

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2017 15:25:44
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