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Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in concert 1972   You are logged in as Guest
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Dudnote

Posts: 1530
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
From: Living in Guadeloupe

Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in con... 

Am I imagining it, or are there shades of Zyryab at several points?


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2017 0:46:55
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

At which point in the 110 minutes am I supposed to listen?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2017 5:12:08
 
Dudnote

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From: Living in Guadeloupe

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to estebanana

Well as much or as little as you feel is worth listenning to.

But somewhere in there you get an end of zyryab duel type thing going on with shorter and shorter phrases. I'll have to listen through again to find it. Might be just before 1 hour in.

That sort of duelling exchange thing was non-existant in flamenco in 1972 - so which was the more important influence that gave rise to it: Indian music (My Goals Beyond was 1971) or American jazz?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2017 5:21:19
 
kitarist

Posts: 168
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote
That sort of duelling exchange thing was non-existant in flamenco in 1972 - so which was the more important influence that gave rise to it: Indian music (My Goals Beyond was 1971) or American jazz?


Deep Purple was doing dueling lines (vocals-guitar; guitar-keyboards) in 1970 on Child In Time and other songs. Maybe some flamenco was a fan :-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2017 6:02:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10360
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

Well as much or as little as you feel is worth listenning to.

But somewhere in there you get an end of zyryab duel type thing going on with shorter and shorter phrases. I'll have to listen through again to find it. Might be just before 1 hour in.

That sort of duelling exchange thing was non-existant in flamenco in 1972 - so which was the more important influence that gave rise to it: Indian music (My Goals Beyond was 1971) or American jazz?


Ravi Shankar inspired all the hippies->John Mclaughlin was a hippie->studied indian music and knew Ravi's percussionist, Zakir Hussain's dad->formed mahavishnu and wrote "meeting of the spirits" 1970, inspired tons of rock bands to jam with guitar/keyboard trade offs-> studied with Zakir Hussein and later formed SHakti group 1975 ->hooked up with Paco de Lucia and Larry Corryell 1978 teaching them Meeting of the spirits with added shakti style trade offs-> Paco composes Zyryab 1990, basically a mash up of Meeting of the spirits with some of his own added chords and melodies, but includes the identical trade off runs from 1978.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2017 21:26:42
 
Piwin

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RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

That sort of duelling exchange thing was non-existant in flamenco in 1972


It all started with that iconic scene from Deliverance right?
You should check out gamelan ensembles. Instead of using several instruments to create this "call and answer" type of thing, they went down the route of using several instruments to create one single melodic line. The end result is very impressive. I forget what the technique is called but I'm sure some of the Balinese/Javanese experts on here could enlighten us.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2017 17:09:52
 
Erik van Goch

 

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From: Netherlands

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

Actually the competitive part all started right here



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2017 18:08:42
 
BarkellWH

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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Piwin

I lived in Jakarta, on the island of Java, for four years while assigned to the American Embassy in Indonesia. Although no ethnomusicologist myself, our Consular Agent--"Honorary Consul"--in Bali, who had lived there for 20 years, had a doctorate in ethnomusicology, specializing in gamelan, both the Balinese and Javanese variety. He kindly gave me a copy of a paper he wrote on the gamelan.

Gamelan music (the term "gamelan" is derived from the Javanese word for "mallet," which is used to strike the percussion instruments) is orchestral in nature. Much of it is repetitious with the main gong being struck at the end of each sequence, signifying the beginning either of the same sequence again or another variation. To respond to your suggestion regarding the principle underlying gamelan music, Piwin, I am including below a quote from the paper I have on the subject.

"The gamelan ensemble can be characterized as music based on communal expression. The melody of a single instrument cannot be conceived as separable from the whole sound of the ensemble. In identifying what they find to be the main melody of a composition, many theorists have been puzzled by the different limitations of the melodic ranges of the instruments. Actually, the feeling of unity, communality, or totality is based on the interactions or interrelationships among the instruments in the ensemble. This is the most important concept of the gamelan ensemble."

I would add that often there is a singer, almost always a woman, called a "Sindhen" who is considered part of the instrumentation of the gamelan ensemble. The Sindhen adds a beautiful and haunting touch to the whole. It really is beautiful.

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2017 18:10:44
 
Erik van Goch

 

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Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

In the later half of their existence the flamenco department of Rotterdam exposed their students to various projects among which a gamelan project. I don't know anything about gamelan music myself but i'm a pretty serious collector of Balinese woodcarvings.....




above: ever wondered what causes a lunar eclipse..... Dewi Ratih the moon goddess and her stalker Kala Rau (who looks quite enchanting in this lovely woodcarving from the 1930-ties). Sometimes Kala Rau partly succeeds in swallowing the moon goddess (causing the lunar eclipse) but every time she is able to escape.

Below: Rama and Shinta



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2017 18:34:22
 
Piwin

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RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to BarkellWH

Thanks Bill.
It's interesting because what I had in mind was something more specific but with your explanation I see that it really applies to the whole music.
I went rummaging around and, according to Wikipedia (so add a grain of salt...), what I was thinking of is apparently called "kotekan".
To quote them: "Kotekan are, "sophisticated interlocking parts,"[2] "characteristic of gong kebyar and several other Balinese gamelan styles, that combine to create the illusion of a single melodic line that often sounds faster than any single human could possibly play."
This is one of the first YouTube results for kotekan:

I guess that particular kind of "interlocking" got my attention just because of the speed, but your explanation tells me that this communal characteristic goes well beyond just this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2017 18:59:25
 
BarkellWH

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From: Washington, DC

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Piwin

Kotekan is strictly Balinese. Javanese do not have it in their gamelan repertoire. And it definitely sounds Balinese in its very dynamism and speed, as opposed to the much more refined Javanese gamelan.

I'm not suggesting that Javanese art forms are better, but overall they are more refined. As an example, Javanese music is more refined and controlled, almost intellectual. Balinese music, by contrast, is far more dynamic and lively. The same holds true in dance. Javanese dance is more deliberately refined and controlled, while Balinese dance is more lively, very angular, and expressive.

Colin McPhee, one of the great interpreters of Javanese and Balinese culture for Western audiences summed it up nicely.

"Javanese gamelans have an incredibly soft, legato, velvet sound; the hammers and mallets that are used to strike the metallophones and gongs are padded so thickly as to eliminate all shock. Tempos are slow and stately, and there is little change in dynamics; the prevailing mood is one of untroubled calm and mystic serenity. Balinese music, on the other hand, is vigorous, rhythmic, explosive in quality; the gamelans sound bright and percussive; hard hammers of wood or horn are used for many instruments, and the thin clash of cymbals underlies every tone; only the great gongs are gently struck. While the classic calm of Javanese music and dance is never disturbed, music and dance in Bali is turbulent and dramatic, filled with contrast and bold effects. Javanese musicians find the music of Bali barbaric. Balinese complain that the music of Java "sends them to sleep."

McPhee wrote that in 1949, and it is as true today as it was then.

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2017 21:14:56
 
Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
<snip>
I'm not suggesting that Javanese art forms are better, but overall they are more refined. As an example, Javanese music is more refined and controlled, almost intellectual. Balinese music, by contrast, is far more dynamic and lively. The same holds true in dance. Javanese dance is more deliberately refined and controlled, while Balinese dance is more lively, very angular, and expressive.
<snip>
Bill


I have both Balinese and Javanese friends. I am a great fan of Balinese dance drama. My first visit to Java was a trip by mini van from Ubud, Bali to Yogyakarta, Java, with my friend Paul as guide and translator, and Harry as driver.

Paul is from Surabaya. He has a degree in English literature from the University of Malang, speaks fluent and accurate Spanish, which he learned in about three years during the time I have known him. He also speaks Russian (presumably as well as his Spanish and English) and five Indonesian languages in addition to Javanese and Bahasa Indonesia--but not Balinese, though he has worked for years as a tourist guide in Bali.

Harry's father is Javanese, his mother Balinese. He speaks both languages, as well as serviceable but occasionally imperfect English. His teeth are filed level in the Balinese manner, so he is often taken as Balinese.

Harry and Paul both suggested enthusiastically that we visit a fairly small city in East Java, where there is a large venue for traditional Javanese dance drama performances. At the moment I don't remember the name of the town, but it is a significant tourist attraction, for Indonesians as well as foreign tourists.

The performance the night we visited was a condensed version of the Ramayana ballet. It lasted a couple of hours. The full version lasts all night. Paul's and Harry's attitude was, "See how much more refined the Javanese version is, and how superior it is to the [rather rustic] Balinese version." In fact I liked the more earthy Balinese version better, even though I can't understand the improvised jokes that occasionally emerge.

For example Hanoman, the white general of the monkey army, is more godlike and has much better manners in the Javanese version. In the Balinese version this major character is much more monkey-like. When he discovers where Prince Rama's kidnapped wife is being held captive, he sits on the wall, figuring out his next move, while he scratches himself and bites the fleas he catches. Javanese Hanoman would never exhibit such barbaric behavior.

But Paul and Harry clearly found the Javanese version superior.

Here is a Balinese dancer in a performance of legong. This is one of a few hundred poses and facial expressions which children begin to learn around age six, if they are to become dancers. The gestures are synchronized with the music, and can follow one another as rapidly as about 200 beats per minute. Some poses, like this one, are held for several beats.

Next is Balinese Hanoman flying to Sri Lanka in search of Princess Sita. The stage is about thirty feet (10 meters) long. When he first came out of the door behind him, I instinctively ducked, thinking his leap would carry him the whole distance. He did this jump three times in quick succession. It's not his initial long jump coming out the door. On this one he jumps straight up from the floor. On the second jump I noticed the musical cue. The third time the cue played I pressed the shutter release. It was only after the film was developed that I could appreciate the precision of his pose.

My Balinese friend Nyoman has been my driver a number of times. When I first brought a guitar with me, he asked to hear me play, and immediately invited me to a rehearsal of the gamelan of Bangli, the seat of one of the seven rajas of Bali before the Dutch conquest. This is one of the leading gamelans of the whole island, having won the annual contest in Denpasar several times, playing in the prevailing gong kebyar style. Nyoman has been a leading member of the ensemble since he was in his twenties.

When I asked him about Javanese gamelan, he said he didn't know much about it. But he said his impression was that it had remained rather static, while Balinese gamelan was a vibrantly evolving art.

I confess a preference for the more dynamic and complex Balinese style, though as always tastes in music are subjective, and each is entitled to his own.

RNJ





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2017 0:28:38
 
Piwin

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RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to BarkellWH

At first sight, this seems somewhat similar to the classical/flamenco divide, though I'm probably just superimposing what I know onto something I know nothing about.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2017 0:46:37
 
Richard Jernigan

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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

...and here's a Javanese Hanoman. There is much greater emphasis on dignity, superhuman strength and a warrior's courage, but without the athleticism and wit of the Balinese depiction.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2017 4:26:43
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

It's often overlooked, but Indian music and the formats in it were brought into consciousness and integrated into American music by the Black jazz artists in NY, and Detroit, not the pop stars. The pop stars heard it in the jazz and then sought it out.

Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Yusef Latif et alii, were 15 years ahead of all the popular usage of this music. Coltrane's hit on the radio 'My Favorite Things' was a jazz waltz that clocked in at nearly 8 minutes long in its commercial version. the popularity and until then unheard of duration was a revelation for radio play popular music. Coltrane's hit opened the door for longer expositions like rock band concept albums with longer songs.

Eric Dolphy tragically died before any of this hit the mainstream, but his albums were filled with literal and internally processed reference to Indian music because he studied with Indian musicians in the 1950's.
Yusef Lateef went a 'world music' route before that was a thing. Coltrane began playing Shinai an Indian horn long before anyone had heard of Ravi Shankar.

The phrasing and melodic material in My Favorite Things is highly processed through Indian improvisational strategies.

Jazz musicians also had 'call and response' as an integral part of the music from the beginning because it developed out of field work call an response work songs. All this stuff comes from Africa, not so much India.

Call and response is African. Cutting sessions are the virtuoso application of call and response. The jazz records were chock full of it. The cutting egde jazz players f the 40's 50's 60's advanced music much more than they ever get credit for. Pop music gets the notice in popular history, but the pop guys were listening to the cream of the crop of the horn and blues men. The guitar jazz guys were mainly second wave on the progressive end.

The guitarists were like fire flies, Coltrane was like a blasting meteor hitting the Earth. His enormous influence is still not understood by the mainstream. And then there is Miles, you can't even talk about him. They, the progressive jazz guitarists, would all be playing in front of the Metro station if not for Miles.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2017 6:01:06
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

I like this one because the dragon serpent figure on her left is like me saying "Ima grab you by the pussy!" And her response is "Oh no you ain't."



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2017 13:32:21
 
Ruphus

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RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

... i'm a pretty serious collector of Balinese woodcarvings.....


My brother used to own indigene sculptures and paintings that he collected on several continents.

To me, not all, but many of them (apart of the stylized specimens) were showing disproportion of body, head and limbs, paired with kind of amateur skills that left the figures static and lifeless. Whereas regarding western historic paintings, I used to wonder why in many examples of otherwise great skills, yet the hands used to be depicted so anatomically wrong and delicate with all too pointed fingertips. (About which me learned later on that it was deliberately done that way, for small hands at that time were considered attractive / flattering.)

Thus, originally suspecting lacking skills, especially in prehistoric times (aside from impressive capturing already in cave paintings, where the artists even managed to accurately show correct limb coordination of running animals -which we came to observe and systematically understand yet only a couple of years ago) I was blown away by the Chinese Shihuangdis clay figures that are as realistic and lively as it gets.

Having said that: The figures you show display remarkable liveliness / accuracy of posture and body tension.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2017 16:18:43
 
Erik van Goch

 

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From: Netherlands

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I like this one because the dragon serpent figure on her left is like me saying "Ima grab you by the pussy!" And her response is "Oh no you ain't."

The girl is Dewi Ratih the moon goddess and the dragon is her stalker Kala Rau who actually looks quite enchanting in above woodcarving from the 1930-ties. They were linked for eternity when she caught him sneaking around the fond of eternal life which was forbidden for anyone but the gods. So she called Vishnu who arrived right at the moment Kala Rau took his first slug of water, a forbidden action it ironically had to pay with it's life since Vishnu cut of it's head without further ado. However, since the water already touched the head the head itself stayed alive forever spending it's days stalking Dewi Ratih the moon goddess who betrayed his cunning plan to the gods. Sometimes he succeeds catching/swallowing her (causing the lunar eclipse) but she always manages to escape in the end.

Here's another one showing the moment of capture:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2017 0:19:13
 
Erik van Goch

 

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From: Netherlands

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Having said that: The figures you show display remarkable liveliness / accuracy of posture and body tension.


They come in all shapes and qualities, varying from cheap mass produced tourist stuff up to real pieces of art and everything in between. Obviously the best ones are rare to find and can be pretty expensive. Quite often in Balinese arts the fingers are kept pretty primitive. I tend to buy the best ones i can find/afford but can be charmed by some of the simpler ones as well like the farmer with the karbouw. I also include a Legong dancer (as mentioned by Richard), a mother with children and last but not least the only one not in my possession, a Rhama & Shinta that might cost a year salary.









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2017 1:41:03
 
Ruphus

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RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

With exception of the farmer, the facial expression is great. Including the natural suspension of the girls cheek while she lowers her head, in the last photo.

The only sculpture I ever bought was the one below.


Invited at friends in Düsseldorf, we were taking a walk through the city at night. We were actually focused on a discussion, when my eyes caught something that looked like a wooden figure of a crouched rat or so. I let a sentence be finished, then asked for a second and returned to the showcase with that object in the shadow.

Discovered that it is a figure of a human, still loved what I saw and asked my friends to obtain that thing for me, as I was to leave same night.

Like possibly with your figure of mother and children the climate transfer had resulted in a crack in the back of the figure (more severe than with your figure), still I wanted to have that dang by all means.
Turned out the store wanted a pretty steep price, not even discounting for the crack, but I let it be purchased anyway.

It appears to have been produced in Thailand (even though the wood looking like IRW), and I have been told later on that this motif ought to be religious and is being carved in masses. Albeit not always as perfectly like this one.


Ruphus

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 22 2017 6:46:55
 
Erik van Goch

 

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From: Netherlands

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

The only sculpture I ever bought was the one below.



As far as i know it origins from Indonesia were it is known as Orang Malu, but it is indeed mass produced and as such probably a good way of earning some money for people all over the globe. The first time i encountered one was during Rotterdam Poetry Park (presently known as Dunya Festival), a huge multicultural festival with music, food and art from all over the world. In the 90ties one of the standard attractions was the "Spanish Village" offered by the local Spanish society offering flamenco shows, food & drinks etc. A children flamenco dance group i was part of performed there various years on a row. So one year there was this guy selling tourist friendly Indonesian woodcarvings, mainly animals carved from parasitic wood but also the Orang Malu you bought. So in between my 3 performances of that day i spend a couple of hours at his stall, selecting myself the best ones he had in store and ending up spending my complete earnings of that day on a carved fish, a lizard, a bird and 2 lovely Orang Malu like yours. As far as the Orang Malu were concerned he had a whole range of formats varying from about 10 cm up to 40 cm or more. I loved the composition but not so much the quality of the woodcarving. But after i picked up the best one for the 20-th time, still doubting if i should buy it or not, he suddenly showed me another one he kept hidden under the tabel which turned out to be a real beauty. 'Why do you keep this beauty hidden under the table and the crap ones fully displayed" i asked him. "Because nobody will buy that one" was the puzzling answer after which he explained that very small one had to cost 25,- Dutch guilders (11,50 euro) and that the general public was not willing to pay that amount of money for a very small one if they could buy the bigger ones for way less or a bit more. Somehow there logic was "the bigger, the more valuable" without considering the huge difference in artistic quality at all. To me the bigger ones were just expensive firewood and that small one was a bargin (if it was made by a Dutch artist it would have been prized several hundreds rather then 25,-). As it turned out he had 2 in that quality and i bought both of them. Later that year he went to Indonesia hoping to collect 10 more but returned with only 4 since he was not able to find that quality in large amounts. Out of this 4 i bought 2 more of them and didn't like any of the other items he had in store which were quite touristic.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2017 2:44:39
 
Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Erik van Goch

Erik, your story reminds me of a missed opportunity. Twenty-five years ago, or more, I was at the famous wood carving workshop of Ida Bagus Tilem in the village of Mas, Bali, where there were, and still are, at least a dozen such shops. But Tilem was the most famous, reputed to have inspired a departure from rote traditional forms and subjects.

On display were a number of figures of the demigod Hanoman from the Ramayana. They were a little less than a foot (30 cm) tall , in dark wood. But they were not traditional in form. The general of the monkey army was presented as an actual monkey, anatomically accurate, but dressed in a dance costume, executing a fluid and graceful pirouette, arms upraised.

Of the ten or a dozen such figures on display, one stood out as the work of a master. The monkeyish realism, the superbly lithe and flowing movement made it a great work of art. I asked the price. As I recollect the shop attendant quoted around $1200. I set to bargaining seriously. Before long the shop attendant called the master himself. He would not go below $900. Regretfully I said it was more than I could afford. The master touched my arm, and offered a very good price on one of the others. I told him it was the masterpiece which spoke to me.

Outside in the car my friend Paul asked me what was so special about that piece, saying, "It would be easy to find someone in this village to make you one for $150 or $200.

I replied, "Paul, that one is alive. The rest are just pieces of wood."

Paul answered, "They are all just pieces of wood to me." I was surprised, since I felt he had a good eye for paintings, and knew a fair amount about painting techniques and materials.

Three years ago we spent a month at Ubud, a center of dance and painting. Mas is just a few miles south of there. One day we took a taxi to the workshop now run by the grandson of Ida Bagus Tilem. Having become a lille more prosperous in the meantime, I described to the shop attendant the piece I had not been able to afford years before. He looked puzzled. I persisted, and he fetched the master, who listened for a few moments,then smiled in comprehension.

"Yes, it was a piece my grandfather made. Many people copied him--I would say, perhaps--attempted to copy him. But after my grandfather passed away, there were no more like it from him, and the others gradually fell out of fashion. I'm sorry to say, I don't know where you could find one for sale. The only ones I know of belong to collectors, and they are not for sale."

We went back to Ubud disapointed.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2017 4:51:27
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1735
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Richard, i know the feeling, to me the vibes someone or something has is extremely important. The most extreme example is when i bought myself a book at the famous bookshop "De Slechte" a bookshop offering down prized (ramsj) books and second hand books in large amounts. Before the internet existed for the general public it was the place to find yourself the most interesting and rare books and i bought thousands of them (but i bought them in a small and pretty unknown bookshop near my home with was equally interesting and way more affordable). So one day i found a nice second hand book and noticed the same book was sold there brand new as well for even less money. Still i bought the slightly damaged second hand one for slightly more money because for some strange reason that one felt more alive as the brand new ones (that was quite exceptional since in general i favored to buy the most perfect copy i could find, preferably new and sealed).

As far as the Hanoman is concerned, it's a pity you could not afford it at the time. I regret not buying one on Catawiki last november myself (you can only spend your money once so unfortunately choices has to be made if there is a variety of choices which in my case is a monthly problem since i collect many things and have quite an expensive taste). This one was offered as "a hermit with an ape face" and was in fact a lovely and pretty interesting hanoman from quite an early period. It was sold for 155,- quite a bargin if you ask me.

https://veiling.catawiki.nl/kavels/8657029-beeld-van-een-kluizenaar-met-apengezicht-bali-indonesi






I do own 1 Hanoman so far which is shaped in the art deco style.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2017 12:01:37
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2592
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Erik van Goch

The case of Balinese art and culture is interesting. Many people who visit Bali think the Balinese have preserved their centuries old art, and when they visit the art boutiques in Ubud many a tourist believes he is buying representative Balinese art, which he is, but often it is not culturally as old as he thinks. Originally, Balinese traditional paintings were restricted to what is now known as the "Kamasan" or "Wayang" style. It is a visual narrative of Hindu-Javanese epics from the Majapahit Kingdom: the Ramayana and Mahabharata, as well as a number of indigenous stories, such as the Panji narrative. It was an interesting but fairly restricted oeuvre. Then in the 1920s European artists such as the German Walter Spies and the Dutchman Rudolf Bonnet settled in Bali, and in the 1930s, anthropologists Gregory Bateson and Margaret Mead came. All had a hand in encouraging the Balinese to expand their repertoire. Spies and Bonnet, in particular, are credited with directing Balinese artists toward a more modern style that depicts Balinese life and incorporates more perspective than the original art did.

With the arrival of Western tourists, of course, Balinese artists created much more "traditional" (in fact, as a result of Spies and Bonnet, "modern") Balinese art to sell. In other words, the change of the "patron" of Balinese art from the temples to the Western tourist resulted in the change of the artwork itself, from the original Majapahit, Hindu-Javanese themed paintings to today's more eclectic style. What today's Balinese art is not, however, is "traditional" in the original sense. The Western artists and anthropologists who first came to Bali, and now the Western tourists who represent a "market," have seen to that. And Balinese artists are happy enough to create what might be called "Modern Traditional" Balinese art in order to accommodate tourists who will purchase Balinese "traditional" paintings to take home and display in their homes.

Bill

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Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2017 13:09:42
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1735
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Spies and Bonnet, in particular, are credited with directing Balinese artists toward a more modern style that depicts Balinese life and incorporates more perspective than the original art did.

The 20-ties and 30-ties were indeed quite an interesting area when it comes to foreigners challenging the Balinese artists to expand their repertoire and at the time there was quite an interesting multicultural friends group/community of artist inspiring each other on various levels. In his articles Bonnet praises I Geremboeang as being one of the most important woodcarvers of that era who's work represents the new (art deco) direction of woodcarving the best. My most precious sculpture happens to be from his hand and is indeed a fine example of the very first art deco statues made in Bali around that period of time. Another epic example of that interesting period is what i like to refer to as my "Egyptian Lady" which is clearly inspired by the old Egyptian farao statues (the cobra is replaced by a flower). I can totally picture Bonett showing some pictures of the Toutanchamon mask to the Balinese artists with the request to make something like that (the discovery of his grave was a pretty hot item in those days and i wouldn't be surprised at all if the Egyptian art triggered the Europeans Art Deco movement to start). Both statues are unsigned because up to that moment signing ones woodcarvings was not customary in Bali (that was introduced by foreigners as well).





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2017 14:17:00
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3415
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Erik van Goch

Thank you, Erik,

for the education on the matter. Now supplied with the name of it, I made a quick google search and found that there exist so many examples that are more refined than the one I have. Presumably, I must have fallen prey to smart dealer who probably fetched the specimen in Holland and flogged it for a healthy upcharge.

But, I still admire the work (eventhough done routingly and likely by use of power tools) and overall appearance that conveys the body tension of crouching rather well.

Regarding mentioned missed opportunities, to me that is with two incredible guitars; but I have mentioned that on the foro more than once already.

In respect of sculptures (and drawings), I agree, to me as well it is all about liveliness. Movement whether dynamic or on halt, anatomical reality and mood. If very well done it can make dead material appear alive. Thus I can look at a Micheangelo piece of marble without ever getting tired of it.

While about successful mass production ... My old lady used to collect porcellain figures mostly from Meisner. Stuff that I consider rather bad example and kitsch, though often there is no little of craftsmanship in it. (In the orginal modelling and then in the accurate painting of it.)

There exists one example of molded figure however that I wish to obtain one day. I have shown it on the foro before (albeit within other context, hehe). It ought to be found in the USA and I hope to be getting my hands on such a specimen one day. Not just because of its symbolism with tangent to life, but because of the outstanding sculpturing of the pattern as well as the perfect coloring.

Just have a look at this. Unfortunately, there is no picture of higher resolution available, yet the detail that I am so taken by, still shines through.


Aren´t these guys lively and true looking? The bodies positioned so well that the figures convey whereabouts of static, physiology and weight so perfectly that I almost wonder how the sculpturer came to figuring it without having actually piled chimpanzees as models.

This thing is cheap and to a degree OT. Merely molded with alabastrite (polyresin). Seems as if it costs only 15 bucks. But it would make happy to look at, if it was placed somewhere in my house.


Far in value from unique specimens of art (though these days anything ought to be "art" in the same time) and artisanry, but someone must have shaped it originally. And if I knew who, and had the money, I´d express to him my admiration for such sculpturing skills and ask him to make me an original. And me would like to watch the people who paint it with such precision and incredible shading.


Ruphus

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2017 15:24:35
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1735
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Just have a look at this. Unfortunately, there is no picture of higher resolution available, yet the detail that I am so taken by, still shines through.


Aren´t these guys lively and true looking? The bodies positioned so well that the figures convey whereabouts of static, physiology and weight so perfectly that I almost wonder how the sculpturer came to figuring it without having actually piled chimpanzees as models.


I couldn't agree more, that's truely a fabulous piece of art. Your Orang Malu isn't that bad at all as well (i've seen far worse). At precent day i probably wouldn't buy any of the objects i bought from that Poetry Park seller because obviously my taste refined as well in the past 25 years when i encountered better examples.

Personally i don't really care if it's unique or mass produced and i can love good kitch as much as i love good art. On top if you take kitch, blow it up to a meter, place it in a museum with a catching name involved and suddenly it becomes very expensive art :-).

In the 90ties i found myself a shop that sold holograms and they varied from about 20,- to over a 2000,-. The only one i liked that was quite outstanding compared to the others and on top included a multilayer filmshow. It was called "shakespeare" and if you rotated it the right way it showed him thinking...getting an idea... having second thoughts about that idea.... and fall back in thinking again. It really was a fabulous piece of art and on top the (almost) cheapest one in the shop (25,00). The reason it was so cheap was because it was mass produced in millions being part of a bankpas 3d-logo and as such has raised enough money already to be sold cheap. It totally outclassed the ones costing 100 times as much that were only available in limited editions and therefore pretty expensive.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2017 15:47:51
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1735
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

One of the oddest Balinese objects in my collation happens to be a 90 mm artillery shell that is transformed into a decorated vase (both shape and decoration were obtained by hammering the patterns from both sides).



One of the rarest statues in my collection happens to be a madonna made in Papua New Guinea around the 1920's. It is the silent witness of christian missionaris invading the ara urging the locals to make decent Christian statues rather then the in their eyes obscure ancestor sculptures they used to produce. That madonna still shows the long noses that are one of the characteristics of the Papua's traditional statues.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2017 17:10:45
 
Piwin

Posts: 1624
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Ruphus

The original Indian version had a fourth monkey who was covering his genitals with his hands. He pops up from time to time in other parts of the world. I most recently saw him on an AIDS prevention campaign in Africa. "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, zip it" was the slogan.) But he seems to have lost his way somewhere between India and Japan since by the time his buddies Mizaru and co. got there, he had just disappeared and most representation since then show only three monkeys. Ricardo posted a video in the "most agressive guitar" thread that probably explains why the fourth monkey got sidetracked. That video might also explain why the three other monkeys always look like they're in shock.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2017 18:01:24
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3415
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan in... (in reply to Dudnote

Since the masters of obscurity managed to shut down the VPN that I used me can´t see any of the over 5 mio URLs that they have blocked. (There are other VPNs that work, but they often come with troyans and malware ... Aside from the fact that I suspect regimes to be sneaking in their evil codes into such apps anyway.)
From there, unfortunately I can´t see the pic of the hologram (must be on a forbidden server) nor Ricardo´s video.

But I am flabbergasted about what inflating, narrowing and firm imprinting has been possible with the example of the artillery shell without the metal cracking.

And the Madonna sculpture outright amuses me. It almost appears to be expressing the artist´s frustration about dogmatic clerics. The figure as an antagonist to the common western example which seeks for a vibe of innocent sweetness.

Reading about the lost fourth monkey, at first didn´t appeal, because of my initial preference of the other three as symbol of ignorance and opportunism. But then it came to mind that a fourth hiding its genitals would congruently actually be fitting in just perfectly. Seeing how prudery leads to disturbed perception and attitude with oneself, the profane world and surrounding.
--

I have a question.
Don´t think that I could afford it anyway, for daylight robbery being beyond words here; not to mention even prices for imported goods ... But I assume that artist material shops ought be holding nifty sculpturing materials available these days.

Is there something that allows forming, adding and cutting for a good while before curing? Maybe even some kind of stuff that could then be sanded and smoothed?

(Actually after having bought the house, I thought of setting up a little workshop downstairs for making wooden sculptures. Only that roaming stores for tools reluctantly made me give up on the idea. Both, supply / assortment and pricing were just outrageous. - And that was years ago when the market was what has to be considered "cheap" here. Now everything comes in for about 6 times as much. ... While the henchmen and their clerks are collecting Porsches and London´s prime real estate with what is being literally squeezed out from their homeland´s living people. ... Soiled, crumpled potatoes for 3 bucks / kg anyone? Or broccoli for 6? Complete fish for 20-30? Beef for 40?... At average net wages of 500-1500? There you go, I always lose it when thinking of the drastically hogging berserk hypocrites. And to hell with our western white collars just as well, who gladly hold the world´s filthy ogres´ bank accounts of up to $ hundreds of billions per head! -From which again they get silently paid to leave the regimes alone and "thriving", while notwithstandingly keeping talking of 'humane values'. End of rant.)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2017 6:08:14
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