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RE: What is it about a negra?   You are logged in as Guest
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Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier) 
quote:

For your girlfriend, you might break the news to her (that you bought another guitar) in a setting like this:

Have you bought roses lately?? That's about the cost of s guitar right there!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 11 2017 17:37:01
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
Roses are overrated.

I'd rather have tulips on my organ than roses on my piano ..


*zng...ba bum bum

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2017 1:21:27
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
Literally laughed out loud!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2017 1:25:38
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
Just the coffin is missing on that picture
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2017 9:25:36
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier) 
quote:

So I've been testing tops, backs, bridges and now even fingerboards for over 20 years. The one thing I will say for sure is that "wood varies", and dramatically!


Brian,

There are other ways to check wood thickness. I flex the tops, intermediately as I run them through my Pro-Max sander and find a relative thickness to begin the process.

Although it's a variable technique, it seems to work well enough to follow through with a decided thickness and then to fine tune the finish-out with certain top graduation techniques and then strut polishing.

Kind of like starting the process and working with the wood little by little until you arrive at the place you want to be.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2017 14:48:35
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
Hello Tom,

I have a lot of respect for people like you that have developed your sense of touch and judgement of the right flexibility of tops and backs to make good guitars. That approach hasn't worked well for me, but making acoustical measurements has.

Cheers,

Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2017 23:34:02
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier) 
I hear you Brian, loud and clear, and as any Maestro determines his road to perfection, I'm with them.

As far as measurements go, I believe you are right on track, but what I have experienced with the fine tuning process is about creating nuance with-in a measured build, and it is for this reason that I even brought it up,

Sorry...

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2017 15:05:36
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
Hello Tom,

No problem at all, Tom. I think I do the same fine tuning of my build as you do, by my "taping on the the back" method of "final voicing".

Taping on the back with good old brown binding tape does a remarkably good job of simulating a glue joint. And, you can take the thing off! I might have the back on and off a guitar a dozen times while adjusting the heights of the braces to get the resonances just where I want them in the audio spectrum.

Using Spectra Plus audio software allows me to tell very accurately what the effect has been of what I have just done to a brace. The effects of gluing on the back and installing the binding can be tracked in the same way, and are quite predictable.

Back in the old days we tuned up our transmitters by soldering a couple of #47 pilot lamp bulbs into the transmission line. Nowadays we use an SWR bridge with a meter that has two needles! Why? Because it works better!

73,

Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2017 16:18:15
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier) 
quote:

No problem at all, Tom. I think I do the same fine tuning of my build as you do, by my "taping on the the back" method of "final voicing".


Brian,

Sounds like you pretty well got it fixed with your procedure, and it sounds very close to what some arch top builders do with a removable hole plate in the bottom of their guitar. But No...its not the same as mine; no where near it. But to each his own...if it works for you then there is no reason to change.

But consider multidimensional tonal changes with just the swipe of a sanding cloth. Once you are familiar with your pattern, there is very little work to do. But now I'm on to another way to improve reverb in the sound of the finished product. This, I cannot share right now.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2017 18:48:52
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier) 
quote:

Using Spectra Plus audio software allows me to tell very accurately what the effect has been of what I have just done to a brace. The effects of gluing on the back and installing the binding can be tracked in the same way, and are quite predictable.



Brian,

I'm curious what you find on binding channel - before cutting , after cutting and after gluing and scraping the binding down.

After you cut the channel the bottom falls out of the sound, have you found any difference relative to binding channel size of a more or less drop out?
I've made dozens of guitars of the same model with the same size binding and the same thing magically happens, the whole box goes slack, then comes right back up after up glue the binding in. It's the darndest thing. It happens to every guitar anyone makes with the Spanish style. Any numbers on how consistent your process is in tracking before and after binding?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2017 0:15:47
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
Hello Stephen,

Excellent question! I hadn't thought of running a test with just the binding rabbet cut---that should tell us something. I have two guitars right at that stage now, and will run tests on them. You're right about the dramatic effect of gluing in the back binding.

I'm working to a deadline at the moment, and should have an answer for you about the middle of next week.

Cheers,

Brian

I
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2017 15:11:14
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
Hello Stephen,

I think that your question is worthy of a separate thread, since it applies to every guitar, so I'll start one.

Cheers,

Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 24 2017 17:43:05
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
Hello Brian,

Just went to your website and I liked everything there, from how the instruments sound (though preferring a bit more distant miked tracks - without compression too), to how they look, how you present them, plus the way photos / videos have been taken and the website has been designed.

And besides, some of your guitars reminded me of how much better I like brownish / reddish fretboards visually. So much more in optical harmony than black stuff slapped on blond conifer and brown hardwood.
(Ebony also comes in brownish / grayish shades -which seems less desired in the market-, but I assume you used RW?)

Me has an axe waiting abroad, stuffed with a bubinga fretboard. And if the saying is true that such alternative to ebony also feels a tad softer, just the better.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2017 6:17:00
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Ruphus) 
Hello Ruphus,

Thanks for the kind words about my website (:->)...

I'm using rosewood fingerboards nowadays both because I like the look of them, and because I think that they might help the guitar sound a bit better---no hard evidence yet. Ebony probably wears longer.

I tried several types of oil finish to try to highlight the rich look of rosewood, and settled on Minwax Tung Oil Finish. Tru-Oil came in second, but tung oil really looked the best.

I look for some white streaking in ebony boards, as a totally black color is not very interesting.

I use ebony bindings on classicals and negras, and Gilmer Wood in Portland selected me a beautiful billet of white streaked ebony that was rift sawn to my specs, as well! Rift sawn binding shows straight grain on all its faces. It was 36 inches long too, so that I can scarf joint my bindings off to one side where the joint isn't noticeable. Great service, and the fellow that found the ebony for me is a guitar maker too!

Ralph Novak, an electric guitar builder, told me that the fingerboard wood of an electric was an important part of its sound. When I asked if he thought that it would affect the sound of a nylon string instrument he said that the neck and fingerboard were both part of the sound producing system, so very likely they would have some effect on the tone quality of a classical or flamenco.

Cheers,

Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2017 15:04:38
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
It appears of sense to me that the whole structure matters in terms of resonating characteristics. I also recall discussions about how inertia of the gearhead (depending on weight / mechanics or pegs) may matter in respect of responsiveness. And it sounded plausible to me, just like properties of the neck / fretboard may be making a difference for structure of the instrument.

Yes, I was wondering a bit too about lifetime of fretboards that are less hard than ebony. But then again, as long as one won´t be too lazy to keep fingernails short, a fretboard of any hardwood should last for a very long time; me thinks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2017 21:26:51
 
JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Ruphus) 
Do most luthiers make a Negra with the same specifications as a Blanca? I read on this thread that someone changes the cross brace or thickness of the back and ribs.

Also, why is maple not used more? The only maple guitar I ever played was Ricardo's Sanchis Acre 1F which sounded really good I thought -- dry like a Blanca but a darker sound.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2017 23:26:55
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to JasonM) 
quote:

Also, why is maple not used more? The only maple guitar I ever played was Ricardo's Sanchis Acre 1F which sounded really good I thought -- dry like a Blanca but a darker sound.


I think I read somewhere that maple was popular with flamenco guitars before the civil war as an alternative to cypress, but after the civil war it became too expensive. Would like to know more about this if anyone knows more (how prevalent it's use was, where it was sourced from, why it was used etc.)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2017 11:45:01
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
Hello Jason and Mark,

I make my negras with the same bracing and voicing as my blancas. The big difference is in the the tone coloration and slight slowing of attack that the rosewood gives. Maple is about half way between cypress---low density---and rosewood---high density.

Caveat! The only thing that can be said for sure about wood is that it varies---a lot! I test every piece that goes into my guitars. See my wood testing videos at:

http://www.brianburnsguitars.com/my-process

My main flamenco teacher back in the 1960's was Freddy Mejia in San Francisco. He had a wonderful 1931 Domingo Esteso that had maple back and sides---almost certainly from Germany.

Since we hadn't discovered that California cypress was a great tonewood at that point, and Spanish cypress wasn't readily available, I used "German" maple on both my classicals and flamencos.

I made myself a flamenco out of it in the middle 1970's, and it sounded pretty "wooden boxy" for a couple of years, but I had left the top on that guitar a bit on the thick side...

I think that part of the appeal of maple is that the flamed figure is quite beautiful.

Then there are the different species. A student of mine made a very successful flamenco from "western" maple from the Pacific northwest. It's a good deal less dense than European maple, and especially our East Coast hard maple.

One of the things that keeps me making guitars at age 77 is working with the different woods to get different shadings of tone and responsiveness.

I have a "flamenca morena" coming up in this next batch that ought to be an interesting guitar. Spanish cedar back and sides and redwood top---both brown, hence "morena".

The idea behind it is that the redwood is super bright and responsive---it's from the famous"LS redwood" log discovered by the late Craig Carter. The Spanish Cedar is about the same density as cypress, and matches the color of the redwood nicely.

Cheers,

Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 30 2017 16:11:34
 
JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to NorCalluthier) 
Brian,

I read through your site. Looks like you've done some nice work there. I assume you find it to be beneficial? When was the last time you used woods that didn't score well?

That makes sense about Euro maple being between cypress and Indian. I'm building my first guitar right now and was seriously considering Palo Escrito but I can't find it anywhere for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2017 16:16:10
 
NorCalluthier

 

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 16 2016
 

RE: What is it about a negra? (in reply to Leñador) 
Hello Jason,

The big problem for all luthiers, particularly beginning ones, is consistency. When I started testing wood in the early 1990's I expected to find some small differencs---boy was I surprised! And a supplier's grading system didn't help much.

I can come close to cloning a guitar that I've made, by using wood with test numbers that are close. I will have to build with some wood that tests poorly someday, in order to see to what extent the tests matter. When I sell a guitar or two I might be able to afford such an experiment (;->).

Have you watched the video where I use Gene Clark's old trick with the tape? Here is the link:

I'm particularly fond of the sound of a short sustain guitar for that old-time flamenco sound, and it looks like I'm going to have to use some really substandard wood to get it! My guitars are all turning out too good! I'm even considering using some Ponderosa pine for a top on such a guitar (;->)...

Palo Escrito is rather like a low density rosewood. What sort of sound are you looking for?

Cheers,

Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2017 17:41:30
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