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A rose is a rose is a rose.   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

Posts: 8324
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A rose is a rose is a rose. 

This is fast and dirty shop picture of the rosette I made for Gene Clark.

I dug into my external storage drive and created a lengthy 'slide lecture' on my journey through rosette making and how that could help others chart a course of their own.

If the populacho could refrain from jamming an iron bar into my spokes for a few days, thus sending me into spiral of rage for being serially interrupted, I might discourse on the subject with my usual super powers of self aggrandizing bloviation.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 4:37:28
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

ohhh, little green hearts. Hope and love at the same time.
Its dark and gorgeous. You make very good mosaics Stephen (rage against the populacho )

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 6:22:46
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

Rage rage against the dying of the light.....

yeah...

That rosette is that last of the dark cream colored maple veneer I had. I had a ton of it and it's used up. It makes the white parts of the rosette less bright. There is a charm to down playing the white, a kind of modesty, but bought new veneer stock last summer and now I'm going to use Holly veneer which is WHITE WHITE.

I got a lot of odd habits from Gene, like the long talks he liked to give about Spanish makers prior to an during the Spanish Civil war. He especially admired Domingo Esteso in his usage of every little scrap, nothing wasted. He showed me the heel stack of mahogany or cedro on an Esteso ans said look at the variation in thickness of the pieces he used and the different colors of wood. Esteso had saved pieces from necks and waste and cobbled them together, he may have even salvaged small scraps for old furniture. Esteso must have used the best wood for his best guitars, but some of them have a funkiness, a poetic funkiness, that exposes the man as a wood lover, wood hoarder.

I like to read Spanish history, so a lot of my ideas about guitar making are grounded in my studies. Whether or not my conclusions in relation to guitar making are correct is not a stressful issue for me. I think of these ideas and launching points for talks with other makers and enthusiasts of Spanish history. I'll probably venture to state a few of these ideas, don't consider them to be the work of an absolute accurate historian, but ideas from a peripheral discipline of Spanish origin.

to be con't after I vacuum the house as i have been ordered by the boss to not waste time socializng online
--------

Ok now that I have preserved the domestic tranquility.....

Esteso seems like a place to begin for lack of anything better.

There is sample photo of an Esteso rosette from a book, I ma using it for education purposes so I say it's fair use.

The other photo is my variation on the same idea, not an exact copy, more of a permutation of Esteso's theme. I see a lot of rosette making as working out permutations of an idea. Arrive at a nice idea or steal an idea from an good maker and take off with it. To me there are two basic ways to make a rosette, one is like copying a complicated rosette in the grand manner, take for example a Torres design that is intricate, has some classic elements of rosette motif like the 'wheat stalk' braid so many people like. A classic complex pattern might have two counter mosaics, or large mosaic in the center and small less complex mosaic in the borders. The most complex rosettes and the close coping of them I consider like playing a concerto; copying out a complicated well known Torres rose is like learning the Beethoven violin concerto, right? It's formal, it's formidable, difficult. It has to be done a certain way, it takes research and a lot of set up. It's very admirable.

The second way I see is like a jazz player working on a standard. You can gravitate to some difficult Torres, Simplicio or Esteso rosette and work out the changes. Abstract out a chunk of the rosette and copy it verbatim, or just be inspired by the general thrust of the colors an pattern and work out a variation of your own. It's using history as a spare parts shop and taking what you can bite down on and reusing it. It's like a jazz player learning the melody of a standard and then taking it out.

Concerto playing the rosette is a sure way into the collectors heart and mind, but knowing how to play jazz riffs of your won is also appreciated and rewarded. Here is the Esteso rosette I played off of as if it were a jazz standard. I'm definitely coming down on the jazz side of rosette making.






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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 2:39:06
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

The finished rosette - What I was going after form Esteso was the sense of the pattern turning around in a meander on itself. It's not the same, but inspired by the meander in Esteso. Sometimes I read these as landscape, and the meander becomes figural or animal and the cross becomes sun over mountain. They read in many ways for each person. Or mayne I put too much thought into how that works. Many people jus see a ring.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 4:03:03
 
constructordeguitarras

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

quote:

the meander becomes figural or animal


I see frogs in profile (at the bottom).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 14:21:02
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

If I shoot back a couple whiskies I see a T Rex with short arms and a cross.

You know, I really wanted to be a paleontologist. I can totally see a frog.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 14:40:55
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

Permutations happen this way - The guitar above went to a known guitarist, I'm kinda proud of that. One his long time buddies an an very accomplished former student of his asked for a similar guitar with the same rosette. I said you mind if I tinker with the rosette a little bit, but keep it mostly in the pocket? He said go for it.

I think we do good work if they let us have that tinkering space. See how i used the same mosaic to in a slightly different orientation. Theme and variation.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 14:50:39
 
nhills

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

Great rosette - love it!
Norman

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 15:30:03
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

Thanks Norman.

The confessional part-

I made a terrible rosette with those mosaic tiles first, looked at it for a several months and then disassembled the tiles from the rosette. I cut out each tile by hand with a scalpel and cleaned the edges with a chisel and then made a whole new rose with the re used tiles. The result is the rosette in the post above, the train wreck is below.

If you sharpen the tools and put on the magnification visor and get an extra cup of coffee, such rescue operations are possible.
It's embarrassing this thing is super raggedy, which is why it never left the shop. It was a shot at using white for an outside border, this so far has not worked for me except o one occasion. Here I tried to do it again, but somehow I knew it was a bad idea and did not really follow through. Result, odd rosette. It could have worked with strong black borders and carefully fit tiles. The image the tiles make in that orientation is good, but not set into a solid support of black or dark ground color. The purple-yellow-blue lines are good too, it would have been a great rosette if I had used black, but oh well one for experience.

The compartmentalization used to make each tile look like a cell of its own is a good strategy if you pull it off seamlessly between tiles. The image that is like an abstract butterfly, and I like that. I may go after that idea again, but with full technical concentration.

This is also very much the kind of self inflicted mind screwery I learned from Gene Clark, who said: "The difference between good/bad work and great work is rework."
I reworked it and came out ahead, this time.

The saxophonist Rassan Roland Kirk said: "It's a smart man who knows how to quit when he's behind."

Words for rosette makers to live by.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2017 2:03:00
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

The next one I want talk about is the rosette that I made after looked at a 19th century oud rosette. This one prompted me to thinking along a line of inquiry that became very interesting. It lead me to think about the construction of the myth of the Arab influence in guitar making and whether that is true or not.

Manuel de La Chica has a photo of the Alahambra on his label, and you sometimes hear guitar talk peppered with the thoughts that Arabic design influenced guitar making decorative appointments. I thought a lot about this and drew on visits to museums to see Roman mosaic floors, attended a lecture where a well known guitar collector spoke about symbolism in Torres' work and looking at the ways in which guitars are casually marketed with popular slogans alluding to Arabic origins. I'm not sure if I ever solved any of this, but parsing through it was fascinating and it was spurred on by the rosette border motif: black - white - black - white - black - green/white and so on.

That BWBWB followed by GWGWGWGW came directly from a Nahat family oud I saw and I thought WOW okk it is simple and it's universal in theme and Arabic too. Little did I know.

From 2002 the first one- Black outside border, then the BWBWBW motif From 2008 the White field with the BWBWB border directly agaisnt the cedar top wood.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2017 3:49:32
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

This is the Oud rose that launched me on that run of rosettes. I have not looked at it for a long time, but now glancing at it again I'm pretty excited. It really speaks to me and seeing it again after having tucked into into an external drive storage for years I want to make more of this motif.

You know an old falseta is good if you pull it out after a long time not playing it and revamp it. I did that the other night, I remembered some falseta material I liked that I had forgotten.

If a motif or falseta come back into consciousness in a powerful way there must be some meat on the bone. And now looking at it again I see some visual data I missed the first time around that would make this motif stronger on my guitars. My eyes are keener now, we do cultivate our aesthetic vision as we proceed.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2017 3:59:03
 
Piwin

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

A rose may be a rose
but
the wave is a frog
and
the abstract butterfly is a volcano spewing a cloud of ash.

Very nicely done and thanks for sharing. Glad you got to finish the E. Clarke rosette.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2017 19:26:43
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Very nicely done and thanks for sharing. Glad you got to finish the E. Clarke rosette.


Thanks PeeWeen, Should I continue this exegesis on rosette philosophy, or is is it boring the sh^t out of everyone because there is no cross talk fighting going on? I'm getting the feeling that the fighting was more entertaining. I'm not trying to dissuade commentary as this moves along, I simply don't want to be subverted to the point where I have to punch back.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2017 2:15:18
 
Piwin

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

It is eerily quiet over here these days. I'd just enjoy the eye of the storm while it last.
This is fascinating stuff for me, but yeah I can't really comment because I'd honestly be out of my depth (which is usually why I stay quiet in the lutherie section in general. just soaking it in.)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2017 7:07:44
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

When it is quiet at least you can chat before the mortars come whistling in.


This is a crucifixion by Giotto for a church in Florence- notice the BWBWBW trim on the archway.

This is interesting because it is one example of the Byzantine world being transferred to the West- Italy was a pivot point being a main trade hub by sea with the Mid East.

Italy unlike Spain did not have an Arab cultural influence or Arab remnants of design left over from an occupation. Or as the Arab world would view it an expansion of empire. The design elements which each region, Spain to Italy, have in common are interpreted differently. And in the 20th century the motifs that look 'Arabic' were sometimes borrowed by guitar makers as a way to allude to an Arab history of the guitar. I think this is mostly to appeal to a popular notion, to tourism, to marketing.

I used a motif from an instrument mostly identified with Arabic culture, but also knowing this motif is somewhat universal had to think and rethink what it meant to allude to an Arabic history of the guitar. In the end I decided a good rosette design is just that and the viewer made make any associations they happen to make, or not make



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 2:18:23
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

This is one of my favorite ones-



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 11:45:34
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

Moving on from the oud rose style for now I wanted to get back to my original intention of laying out a basic mosaic pattern with a graph hart that anyone can use for a first mosaic. I'm going to harvest text from the 'other' mosaic thread and graft it on here over the next couple days and add some technical info that people of all levels may or may not find helpful.

To shift back into a presenting a how to do it tutorial or explanation for the curious, here is a nice arty photo of some mosaic shavings....



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 11:53:06
 
constructordeguitarras

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I wanted to get back to my original intention of laying out a basic mosaic pattern with a graph hart that anyone can use for a first mosaic.


A hart? Why not a hind?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 14:56:51
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

I meant fart, not hart.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 15:01:51
 
pundi64

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

You would like to critic this



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 22:21:42
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

Mosaic looks fine, border lines are too uniform in width to achieve maximum interest value.
Vary the widths and placement of the borders to give it more breathing space. More black field defined by thin separation lines.
Other than that it's ok. All the colors work together.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 2:35:09
 
johnguitar

 

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana





Just a couple of photos to illustrate what Stephen is saying (if this is not what he is saying then this is what he should be saying) Note that these are my Lorca and Santos copies respectively; the designs are not mine. These guys really had great aesthetics.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 8:15:46
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

John, exactly, the perfect segue into the next thing I want to get into.

Even though he "oud style" rosette I make is grounded in the format of center element, surrounded by thin borders, then a field, then borders. The basic format of most of the work of Santos' , M. Ramirez thru Barbero and beyond.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 9:10:39
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

The upper rosette is a modern take on a traditional format- Center tile or element followed by some border work lines of varying width and weight holding colored bands, Then a black field and more border work ending in black lines against the top wood.

Five elements- Center, border, field, more decorative lines, black border to wood. Most early twentieth century Spanish rosette work either follows that format or is usually some variation on that format.

Lower rosette, follows same format, but the black field is absent, also fair game. And the rope braid element is not countered, it's running the same direction. A thing a few makers did, Manuel de la Chica did it frequently, for example

That five element format is a great composition to base the work on and it has that connection to the best Spanish work.







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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 16:03:51
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

Something similar- contemporary take on just lines. M. Ramirez and Esteso would have made roses with only lines somewhat following the five element format. More or less.

Obvy I went for a blue field.

More on this later.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 16:32:29
 
nhills

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

Another take on just lines - I built this & it's quite striking, if a bit dark.
Cheers



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 17:09:41
 
Piwin

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

Interesting. I wouldn't have necessarily associated that motif with "Arabic culture".
This thread is making jealous that I don't have a proper rosette. Apparently sometimes a rose isn't a rose.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 20:11:53
 
estebanana

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RE: A rose is a rose is a rose. (in reply to estebanana

A little bit of technique to steal-

When you make the rosette and use the 'dummy line' method, a set of veneers with wax on them to take up space between other lines, you can also use strips of plastic. In this case mylar that I cut from IKEA packaging.

After you remove the strip, it leaves a channel you can install the 'braid' element of the rosette or any other component you want.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2017 2:21:09
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