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RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to JohnWalshGuitar)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnWalshGuitar
Alan, the point of practicing staccato is to be planted on the string in preparation for the next note. Staccato is the end result of the planting/preparation process, not the end in itself. In answer to your question, plant the finger where the next note to be played is
Thanks John, just me not watching the video closely enough!
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to ToddK)
Very cool, Todd! Nice sound, too.
You guys may remember Grisha's old video about picado, where he says you have to have a consistent contact point, and also that you always have to push down into the string. Sounds very elementary, and I even heard some classical guitarists joking about it.
But I realized that I don't do this. I was just kind of swinging at the string and never established a good plant. I also didn't push into the string. Most of my energy was pulling at it. Combine this with a kind of uncoordinated hooking motion with the m finger, and you get problems!
My first hearing of the requinto was as a child in south Texas and northern Mexico. Los Tres Reyes' instruments were made by the noted Mexico City guitarrero Juan Pimentel Ramirez. There are now two businesses run by Juan's descendants, one of them at the last address where Juan Sr. had his shop for many years.
Juan Sr. and Gilberto Puente collaborated on a re-design of the requinto. The result was a deeper body, with a cutaway.
Some time in the late 1950s my guitar buddy Pat H. and I were playing medium price Paracho guitars (around $100 at the time) in the big music store on the ground floor of the old Convento de las Vizcaínas in Mexico City. A salesman approached and gave us one of Pimentel's business cards. We took a cab to the address in the Colonia de los Doctores, a poor but decent and safe neighborhood.
There were no strung up guitars at the shop, but tapping on the bridge of one or two convinced us we wanted to play them. We also met Richard Schneider, who was working as an apprentice to Pimentel at the time. He told us, at some length, about his plans to revolutionize the classical guitar.
Pimentel was a taciturn individual, but he occasionally rolled his eyes as Schneider laid out his plan for world domination. Pimentel told us to come back in the evening, when there would be some guitars strung up to play.
When we got back around sundown, there was a crowd on the sidewalk, looking in through the open door and the big unglazed window that opened onto Pimentel's workbench. Craning our necks, we got a look inside. In the crowded front room of the shop there were three guys in suits. Pimentel was working on a guitar setup for one of them. Eventually the penny dropped. I said to Pat, "Those guys are Los Tres Reyes."
Picking out a kid in the crowd, I gave him a five peso piece to work his way into the shop and ask the guys to play for us. He did, and when the setup work was finished, the other two took out their instruments. They played and sang four or five numbers for the assembled crowd, to loud cheers and applause.
After Los Tres Reyes left, we played some of the strung up guitars. It was the beginning of a 25-year relationship. Juan Pimentel was a great artisan, a modest and scrupulously honest man, who started out sweeping the floor in a guitar making shop. He rose to the highest level of his craft, and left sons trained in the art.
The two best presents my ex-wife ever gave me were my Ramirez blanca, and a boxed set of LPs from Los Tres Reyes.
Glad you liked it Richard. I didn't know you were a fan of Los Tres Reyes. I enjoy their stuff as well.
This is probably for fitz63: This is the falseta I was referring to. This is the tempo I like to practice sometimes... I just woke up from a nap and decided to make this video.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to jg7238)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jg7238
quote:
The two best presents my ex-wife ever gave me were my Ramirez blanca, and a boxed set of LPs from Los Tres Reyes.
Glad you liked it Richard. I didn't know you were a fan of Los Tres Reyes. I enjoy their stuff as well.
This is probably for fitz63: This is the falseta I was referring to. This is the tempo I like to practice sometimes... I just woke up from a nap and decided to make this video.
Thanks jg. It's really valuable to see you play the same falseta. I am practicing slowly, and am looking at position quite closely. My hand gets tired, although less and less each day. Do you do the ending? I find those 3 runs quite tricky. I've noticed especially that I have a weak m on the third string, on the 2nd run. Thanks again to all the help on here.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to JohnWalshGuitar)
I think it's not just about involving the middle joint more (PIP), although that's a good observation and start. There needs to be an exchange of work from MCP(large knuckle) to middle and tip (PIP and DIP) at the moment the string is impacted. That's not to say the MCP is not involved, it's highly involved, but its involvement is in front of the string and to the string and then it gives the work over to the PIP/DIP. It's like a relay race, once on the string the MCP is changing directions. If you keep pushing through the string from MCP on rest or free strokes at that moment, the strokes no longer feel easy and light.
I see Paco passively hyper-extending his DIP joints on all fingers whether it's free stroke or rest stroke. He may not always do it for every free stroke but I've seen him do it more than once on every finger. It may just be, as someone already mentioned, that his fingers just don't bend that far. There's no question in my mind that he's not holding them rigid unless he is intending to get that kind of sound.
Rest strokes and collapsing tips complicates the model for the stroke because it may be that when you collapse the DIP fully, the DIP is actually now in a good position to add some amount of flexion itself. So, the release may actually be PIP AND DIP flexion and at that exact moment of release the MCP is changing directions. It could be that Paco's small range of DIP motion may advantage him for picado if he can then use a tiny DIP flexion to release the string. -- just a hypothesis, I'm not saying it's the truth.
You can see him collapsing on all fingers for free strokes to some degree here.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
This treat deals with the technical approach of PICADO so for the sake of the argument it would be better to post a Slow Moe of PDL playing an actual picado rather then a melodic passage with a harmonic underlayer. Not claiming the result would be dramatically different but it would make a stronger case if we all talk about the same rather then referring to a video showing a completely different technique (on top it would be really nice to see paco play a well chosen picado in Slow Moe). For picado he would lift his right arm for a start. I know from Paco Serrano that he uses different techniques for different kinds of picado depending on the speed, power and length he is dealing with (so for a long 6 string run he uses a different approach as for a short outburst dealing with 2 strings only).
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RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch This treat deals with the technical approach of PICADO so for the sake of the argument it would be better to post a Slow Moe of PDL playing an actual picado
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to JohnWalshGuitar)
This video shows all kinds of strokes and all use lots of middle joint (PIP) to pluck as well as collapsing tip joints (PIP). Paco is collapsing DIP and using PIP flexion for picado ALL THE TIME, I can produce multiple videos of it if that's what you want. Trust what you see with your own eyes.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
quote:
Trust what you see with your own eyes
*Sigh* What he was asking was crystal clear, unless you're not familiar with the definition of picado? This thread is about picado. the video you posted doesn't show picado. Simple as that.
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RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Piwin)
The idea that the finger strokes different whether it's picado or arpeggio or rest stroke or free stroke or whatever you want to call it is just plain false. What changes is the hand position, but the use of middle joint is the same in all strokes. Picado may use more DIP collapsing, but free strokes also use some of that too. You cannot see what finger joints are doing in real time with the naked eye when the strokes are fast. Slow motion is needed to see what a player is really doing. Every picado starts with the MCP joint, but it finishes with the PIP/DIP. People just think the MCP is responsible for the entire pluck because that's what they see starting the stroke and the PIP/DIP movement at the moment of pluck can be very, very small. You absolutely cannot produce a sound unless there is some amount of PIP flexion while the finger is on the string. The original post and video that points this out is correct.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to JohnWalshGuitar)
guitbox: It's good to look at the mechanics, but you don't need to understand every detail of what is going on with your body when playing picado. What about your forearm? or shoulder? and your back? isn't all that involved when playing the guitar? Of course, but it helped me more to observe what is going on rather then overthink it with your brain. To be honest, there are thousands of possibilities to play picado. The only thing which is important for me, because many students just don't make it right and have problems with arpegio and picado and hurt themselves after some time, is the simple idea that the power of the movement comes from the large joint because you are activating the muscles in your arm. All the other joints are involved of course!! If you walk your feets are involved too, otherwise you couldn't walk. So I don't get the point of this discussion, maybe someone can help me.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
Most of the discussions I’ve read about the movements of the fingers seem to talk of power being exerted by one or more of the finger joints. But joints do not exert power. Muscles do.
To flex the fingers the main forearm flexor muscles are the flexor digitorum profundus (which attaches to the distal phalange) and the flexor digitorum superficialis (which attaches to the intermediate phalange). The most powerful flexion movement (e.g. when squeezing a tennis ball in the hand) shows that a great deal of the movement comes at the metacarpo-phalangeal (MP) joints.
If power is exerted with flexion mainly at the proximal interphalangeal joint (the claw hand), some extensor action is needed to brace the MP joint to prevent it from flexing and the power is reduced.
If the distal IP joint is relaxed (as sometimes in less forceful playing and picado) I think the long profundus flexor must be relaxed relative to the superficialis.
I am no anatomist and others may have a better understanding of the way the muscles work. My belief is that it is the long flexors which exert the power needed and this will be greater if the MP joints are not immobilized.
But of course it’s the sound produced and the facility which matter most.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)
The point is not about using one joint and not the other, the point is that much of the pedagogy from the last 40 years. (classical guitar for sure, not sure about flamenco) focuses on the main thrust for the stroke coming exclusively from the main knuckle (MCP). If that advice is followed too literally, you can end up damaging your hand. The actual stroke (which can be fully understand by viewing closeup side view slow motion videos) is that the initial flexion impulse to the string comes from MCP but then the MCP gives the work over to the other joints and the MCP changes direction.
Watch the video in the 1st post of this thread, he explains this very well.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to payaso)
That's the problem, we're guitarists not doctors, and no one here is going to fully understand exactly what muscles are doing. I prefer to look at the movements and analyze that, muscles are under the skin and no one can prove to me that they know exactly what's going on under the skin during the complex finger movements required to play the guitar.
I think you're underestimating just how much players allow the distal joint to passively hyper-extend. It's not that it's always done, but it's used much more than people seem to be aware of. Some concert players will collapse the tip joint on the m finger (because it's longer) for everything.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
Yes, that's true in 'classical' playing, especially when the player wants to 'milk' the sound.
But flamenco technique is rather different, particularly when needing a loud, impactful and unamplified sound. Then I think the distal joint is less often passively extended.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to payaso)
I think guitbox is essentially right about the distal joints. Some players consciously manipulate them, others believe they are not, but probably all competent players do it. With the Vicente Amigos of the world, it's quite obvious, with the Paco's, you sometimes need to slow it down a lot to see it. IMO, it's simply coordination--the body does what it needs to do to accomplish the musical/technical result that's desired.
Classical guitarists from the previous generation were usually told that the movement and power came from the knuckle joint, and the knee-jerk adherence to that dictum led to clumsy strokes. It seems there is now a kind of counter-movement to play from the middle joint, which will probably result in lots of tinny, weak strokes.
I've seen no evidence that consciously manipulating certain joints results in better playing. Humans just don't learn that way. IMO the way to go is for a teacher to use imagery, sensations, and exercises to help the student find the right motions.
But a lot of this nerdism is wasted words. Good players do this stuff automatically, instinctively. Grisha and Paco were already ripping with perfect ease by middle school. Those of us with bad habits already ingrained are probably not going to become virtuosos in our 40s. Nothing wrong with trynig to improve and get better, but probably learning and playing music would be a better use of our time (speaking for myself).
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to payaso)
quote:
ORIGINAL: payaso Yes, that's true in 'classical' playing, especially when the player wants to 'milk' the sound.
I know what you mean about *that* sound when you want to soften the attack and thicken the tone, but its surprising how commonplace it is in flamenco, at speed and with plenty of attack/volume.
Apart from Vicente's tips who bend backwards a crazy amount, and PDL, Tomatito is another good example, I think it was the Encuentro video where I really noticed it.
Adam del Monte teaches it too as I mentioned previously, he refers to the tip joints as the 'suspension' in the stroke, giving just enough to aid control, avoid tension etc.
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