Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
My Offer
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
|
 RE: My Offer (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
It's really not that hard to understand, and although Trump has many under educated supporters, he also had many very successful, intelligent business people vote for him. Note I didn't use the word "support". I think there is a difference. Trump has promised to roll back corporate taxes(as well as income from pass through entities) to 15%. Hilary promised to raise taxes on those earning more than 250k. If you earn more than 250k as say, a dentist with an LLC, it's a pretty easy choice as it pertains to his personal situation. For a person earning 500k, that could be a 100k difference in his tax bill. Who knows if he will actually reduce the rate to that level, but with one candidate promising to raise taxes and the other reduce them, it's not that hard to understand why a high income individual would have voted for Trump.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shroomy726
So much unfounded faith on Trump... I just don't get it. Wait... I do. I've been calling out the mass stupidity of Americans since day one on this forum. I reinforced my theory when DT became the Republicans' candidate. Now that he was actually elected, this is no longer a theory, it is fact.
But I am still willing to give him a chance. Just, the things I've seen thus far don't give me too much hope.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 16:08:12
 |
|
Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Piwin)
|
|
|
Oh, I think many, if not most, consider issues bigger than their own personal interests. Personally I've done that frequently, such as voting for bond measures to benefit local elementary education even though my kids are grown. I'm pretty sure I'm hardly in the minority on that stance. I think most people consider the bigger picture, but a huge difference in take home pay over a four or eight year period is a powerful incentive. Even though I didn't vote for Trump, it's not accurate to paint all those who did with the "stupid" brush. That lack of empathy is part of what gave us trump.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
That actually makes it kind of harder for me to understand. So is the idea that people vote solely on the basis of what is in their own direct interest? And I mean this is as an honest question. Most of the time I've voted for more general interests, and sometimes for things that don't impact me at all, even if the candidate I voted for was pushing for policies that could be detrimental to me personally. In these past elections, I think just the fact that Trump has openly denied climate change would have made me vote for the other candidate, even if that meant higher taxes for me. It's honestly hard for me to understand how anyone would deem the tax rate a more significant issue than climate change. But that's just one example, the main point being that one would hope people would have a more holistic view of what an electoral programme means for society at large and not just what it means for them personally.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 16:53:49
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Mark2)
|
|
|
quote:
Even though I didn't vote for Trump, it's not accurate to paint all those who did with the "stupid" brush. That lack of empathy is part of what gave us trump.
I agree with your point above, Mark. To paint Americans writ large as representing "mass stupidity" is a smug attitude that helped pave the way for Trump's election victory. I did not vote for Trump, and I think we are in for a very rough and rocky four years. Nevertheless, I am inserting here a comment I made on the thread "Divisive Ignorance" that I think, in part, explains why a large part of the electorate voted for Trump.
Liberals, intellectuals, cultural elites, and those on the Left have very often exhibited a smug attitude toward the white working class, sneeringly referring to them as “clinging to their guns and religion,” as Obama did, or as a “basket of deplorables,” as Hillary Clinton did. One does not have to agree with white working class attitudes and beliefs to at least debate them in a civilized manner without shutting them down as ignorant and deplorable.
What we are witnessing is, in part, the rebellion of a class of people in America who are tired of being put down by a smug segment of American society who makes no bones about the fact that they think they are superior, and that the cultural mores and beliefs of the majority of the white working class are unworthy. When an entire class of society is smugly put down and sneeringly called "stupid," it should be no surprise when they vote someone into office who they think listens to them.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 18:02:36
|
|
Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
I'm not going to classify you in any way. I strongly disagree with your assessment of the American people but after all, I believe that as flamenco aficionados we have more in common than not. I also disagree that a vote for Trump based on taxes was a "Selfish" vote. Do you know what the tax rates for people in brackets other than your own are? It's easy to think that if I made "x" I'd have no problem paying "y" in taxes. But I believe once you make "x", you might not think "y" is fair. The left constantly says the "rich" should pay their fair share. But when questioned, they never seem to be able to say what is rich and what is the fair share. In some areas of the country an income over 100k might make one be considered to be "rich", but in others, you couldn't even afford to buy a starter home. I agree that any of Trump's promises are suspect. But look at the alternatives voters were faced with. I did believe Hilary when she said she would raise taxes. I didn't believe a lot of other things that came out of her mouth. I've always thought if you want my vote, you have to give me someone to vote for. Neither of the two major parties did.
I agree education, or the lack thereof, is a huge problem in this vast country. How do you account for the fact that some of your fellow engineers voted for Trump?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shroomy726
That's a big part of my point. Even the educated people, that as you say, voted him into office based on his "promise" to cut taxes is ludicrous. Who believes such a character who has proven again and again to be a compulsive liar? He has flipped flopped multiple times on pretty much every topic out there. So regardless of how selfish people vote, it still doesn't make it a "smart" decision to vote for him. And I know a lot of people who are educated and that voted for him (including a lot of my engineer co-workers).
And of course, just like back then, you will classify me as "smug" for that opinion. But you guys don't understand that lack of education and critical thinking is becoming a big problem in this country, which is supposed to be the "greatest country in the world".
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 19:17:05
|
|
Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
It's hard to say how much of it has to do with "lack of education and critical thinking". I will say this though, I think we have overlooked the negative impact that the internet has had. The internet provides information, almost unlimited information, but few people seem to be equipped with the Tools to sort through that information and actually synthetize knowledge. Kind of like online tabs. At first sight, you would have thought that we were going to have an explosion of talented guitarists because of easy access to all this information, but it turns out that there really isn't much correlation between amount of information available and actual knowledge acquired... All we got was a bunch of guitarists who know how to read tabs, and that's about it. Similarly, all of this information about politics and various issues doesn't seem to have helped people gain a better understanding of the world. I've read quite a few articles over the last few weeks saying that misinformation on the internet is a major issue. And I agree that it is, but the answer most seem to provide is that we should "flag" fake information sites. In my view, it would be much more useful to teach people "how to think", how to identify a reliable source and an unreliable one, how to crossreference facts and figures, etc.
And for the rest, I think you're on to something with the idea of "selfishness", or at least perhaps a lack of ability/desire to weigh different issues with those that concern you directly. As Mark2 said, "most people consider the big picture" but there are "powerful incentives" sometimes to do otherwise. I would say that there may be a cultural or historical factor here that influences how powerful that incentive has to be before you disregard the bigger picture in favor of your own interests. And it wouldn't be all that suprising that that tipping point occur earlier on in the US than in other countries (though arguably many are catching up) as it has been pervaded with ultra-materialistic and individualistic values for quite a long time now. The ideal of the American dream, which is inherently materialistic and individualistic, has powered a lot of achievements, but I suspect there's also a flipside to it, and an excess of "selfishness" might be it. Though I don't think selfishness is the right word (hence the quotation marks), since in many respects the US doesn't have anything to envy to the rest of the world in terms of generosity. Maybe self-centeredness or is that just a synonym?
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 19:57:32
|
|
Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
Maybe I'm looking at it more from a glass half full than half empty. I work in the construction trade, and I constantly find myself surrounded by reasonably smart, and often very smart people. Project managers, government employees, my own employees, business owners, tech geeks, surfers, musicians. I really don't know too many people I would consider "dumb"
A few sure, but far from the majority. I don't know what's it's like where you live but if you are even a little bit accurate, I don't want to. Perhaps it's just the way we as distinct individuals look at things. So, I'm still waiting for your reasoning behind your well educated co-workers voting for trump. Do you all pay so much in taxes that they are selfish voters?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shroomy726
If you are only looking at taxes to make your decision on who to vote for, then yes, I would say that's a selfish vote. Mainly because voting for a president is so much more than just taxes.
And I do know what people richer than me get taxed. In fact, I feel like I get taxed a lot and much more than most people in my state, but I look beyond that. People complaining about high taxes in the US don't realize how much taxes other countries are paying. Again... it's the typical American's POV to not look beyond their own country for comparison.
And you strongly disagree with my assessment? Come on man... are you living in the same country I live in?? And I come from Argentina! Maybe in California things are different. In fact, I just visited CA and found it to be so much more progressive than Louisiana. Of course, California is one of the most powerful economies in the world, just on its own, but I cannot disconnect it from the rest of the country. It is just part of the US, so I must average it with the rest of the states, including Louisiana and most other central/southern states where ignorance is rampant. I have just so many examples to give for the formation of this opinion, too many to list...
And Piwin, I have not overlooked the internet as a negative impact. I just commented in Facebook about how dangerous social media is becoming for the spread of misinformation. It is becoming a major problem. And that's where critical thinking and education become essential. You just cannot trust what you read in Fb... Social media makes the problem exponential.
People are ignoring that social media had a big hand in getting Trump elected. Trump is right in one thing: "there is no such thing as bad publicity". And the results of this election proved it.
The internet and social media is one of the most powerful technological advances the human race has ever gotten, and I hate to quote a comic book for this, but "with great power, comes great responsibility". And people don't treat is as such.
A lot of us in this forum profit directly from the vast information provided by the internet. It is such a great way to learn. But most people don't take advantage of this aspect and that's where my point regarding education and critical thinking comes in.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 20:50:54
|
|
Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
quote:
with great power, comes great responsibility
Oh no you didn't!! 
I think we are agreed on the issue of the internet and learning how to sort through the information it provides.
@BarkellWH On your point of how the attitude of the elite may have contributed to the outcome of the election, there are some interesting parallels with the 1848 presidential election in France. It was the first and last election of the Second Republic. The people had the choice of voting between several parties that were perceived as the Parisian elite and the party led by Louis Napoleon, nephew of Napoleon Bonaparte, who, to say the least, had not been coy about his intention to topple the teething democracy. Louis Napoleon scored a crushing victory, and went on to reinstate the French Empire. Alphonse de Lamartine, an outstanding poet and also one of the main political figures in favor of the new Republic, wrote extensively about the responsibility of the people and their perception of a smug elite. He took the opposite view of your own, he did not think that perceived smugness was the problem, rather he thought he saw in the people's choice what he called a "lack of political courage", an "abdication of their own dignity", etc. I'm not sure whether historians vindicate his version or not. He went on to describe the people as any other leader, one that was capable of brilliance but also of turning into a cruel and ignorant dictator. He saw the people as on the whole "novice at leadership" and needing the right people to advise it in its decisions, which admitedly could be why his party was viewed as smugh by the people. Walt Whitman wrote some quality essays on Lamartine and the issues surrounding those elections. Today that period is mainly remembered through the writings of Victor Hugo, many of which we probably would not have today had he not been forced into exile by the new Emperor.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 21:06:43
|
|
Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
To call Trump a compulsive liar fails to take into account an essay recently published by a philosopher. I seldom get all the way through the first paragraph of most philosophy papers, where they lay out how they will dedicate the next 40 pages to oriental hairsplitting. But this philosopher posed an important distinction.
A liar, he said, repeats a specific false statement, in the hope of convincing you of something he knows to be false. A bullsh1tter, on the other hand, says whatever he thinks you might like to hear, or whatever he wishes were true, with little or no regard for the facts, or perhaps even with no knowledge of the facts at all.
Trump is a bullsh1tter. A drawback to highly publicized bullsh1tting is that the bullsh1tter may get carried away by the moment and contradict himself. Trump does this regularly. People criticize him for it.
But Trump is not stupid. He possesses a certain low cunning. One of his first two appointments was a professional liar, a highly successful liar on a commercial scale, Steve Bannon. There are enough people saying Bannon is not a racist, not an anti-semite, to at least cast some doubt on the subject. Yet Bannon has boasted of making Breitbart "the platform of the alt-right" : people who definitely are racist, anti-semitic and worse. A likely explanation is that Bannon merely broadcasts whatever he sees as advantageous to him at the moment, but in a calculated and consistent manner--a practiced and successful liar. Just the man Trump needs as "Chief Strategist."
With Bannon at his elbow, Trump can tell the New York Times that he "has an open mind" about climate change, while in the next week appointing to head the Environmental Protection Agency one of the world's most public and litigious deniers of anthropogenic climate change.
Another semantic distinction: credulity vs. stupidity. The great majority of Americans are quite competent at managing their own affairs. They aren't stupid in that respect. But many people in the USA (and elsewhere) are credulous when told a story that resonates with their motivations.
When I was a boy the press controlled public discourse. As an adolescent and young man, the reins came into the hands of television. Now in the age of social media, no one is in control. If you can pay for an hour at an internet cafe, you can post fake news. If you are Vladimir Putin, you can hire hundreds of people to post fake news, and hire hackers to steal emails, and disseminate carefully selected ones, sometimes after altering them.
I agree with Bill Barkel that a major contingent of Trump voters were people tired of being looked down upon by a large and influential segment of society. There were a lot of people like the man I saw interviewed on TV. The interviewer asked whether there was a danger of Trump destroying the Republican party. The man answered, "I hope he goes up to Washington and destroys the Republican Party. They've got it coming to them." The interviewer didn't ask his opinion of the Democrats.
The class divide runs through nuclear families. One of my cousins is the daughter of a union man. She didn't go to college. She is married to a man who was a truck driver for years, and then for more years chauffeur to a Texas billionaire. They live decently in retirement, in apparent financial security. Not long after I moved back to Texas she and her husband were at a family gathering. I asked about her brother, a retired chemistry professor. She replied, "Oh, we don't see much of D. and them." She has a sunny disposition. She laughed, "I guess we're not good enough for them." I don't know who they voted for, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn it was Trump.
RNJ
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 21:06:59
|
|
Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Mark2)
|
|
|
Trump is smart as ****. Totally underestimated by everyone. He made a hollywood show out of this election and he was the much better actor. Clinton failed hard at acting and in addition nobody really likes that woman anyways, let's be honest. Its simple as that, don't make rocket science out of this election. 99% wanted pure entertainment and they got it, and most people don't give a **** about party manifesto or details, give me a break, nobody even knows what these people really stand for, just ask anybody on the street with specific questions and you will see out of 1000, maybe 1 knows.
Now let's wait and see what happens. Nobody knows, dude is so unpredictable lol, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes best friends with China and Mexico in few months and builds the wall around alaska, and even then nobody would really care. We're all ****ed anyways, the entire world is a huge entertainment show and we love it.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 21:24:53
|
|
Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Arash)
|
|
|
Brilliant post! Nailed it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
Trump is smart as ****. Totally underestimated by everyone. He made a hollywood show out of this election and he was the much better actor. Clinton failed hard at acting and in addition nobody really likes that woman anyways, let's be honest. Its simple as that, don't make rocket science out of this election. 99% wanted pure entertainment and they got it, and most people don't give a **** about party manifesto or details, give me a break, nobody even knows what these people really stand for, just ask anybody on the street with specific questions and you will see out of 1000, maybe 1 knows.
Now let's wait and see what happens. Nobody knows, dude is so unpredictable lol, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes best friends with China and Mexico in few months and builds the wall around alaska, and even then nobody would really care. We're all ****ed anyways, the entire world is a huge entertainment show and we love it.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 22:09:24
|
|
estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
|
|
RE: My Offer (in reply to Arash)
|
|
|
quote:
Trump is smart as ****. Totally underestimated by everyone. He made a hollywood show out of this election and he was the much better actor. Clinton failed hard at acting and in addition nobody really likes that woman anyways, let's be honest. Its simple as that, don't make rocket science out of this election. 99% wanted pure entertainment and they got it, and most people don't give a **** about party manifesto or details, give me a break, nobody even knows what these people really stand for, just ask anybody on the street with specific questions and you will see out of 1000, maybe 1 knows.
Now let's wait and see what happens. Nobody knows, dude is so unpredictable lol, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes best friends with China and Mexico in few months and builds the wall around alaska, and even then nobody would really care. We're all ****ed anyways, the entire world is a huge entertainment show and we love it.
Wrong Arash, she broke almost all the records for vote tallies. The president is not supposed to be an actor, although we had one actor. She ran an understated campaign without big theatric flourishes and she still set the record for the poplar. She very popular among those who are not brain dead.
The reason he won is because half the country is inured to watching cable news which is manipulates facts to suit the minds of the viewers.
.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2016 23:19:13
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
