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RE: My Offer
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: My Offer (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
It may just be a poor understanding of economics on my part, but I have a hard time shaking the idea that it's a zero-sum game. I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to the question "would our standard of living in the industrialized world even be possible without cheap labor in poor countries?"
It is not a zero-sum game. Whether or not the standard of living in the industrialized world would be possible without cheap labor in poorer countries is irrelevant. It is the wrong question. Without the industrialized world providing markets for the lesser developed countries, they would have much greater unemployment and an even lower standard of living than they now have. Our markets provide the force that drives the economies of countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Mexico, and a host of others.
In other words, the developing world is not poor because we are rich. There are many reasons developing countries have not advanced as much as the industrialized world, and much of it has to do with cultural factors. There have been books and studies on the causes of development and underdevelopment by Samuel Huntington, Lawrence Harrison, and David Landes among others. They all point to cultural attributes as a major factor in whether or not countries develop: the heavy influence of some religions (e.g., the Protestant Ethic in the West vs. the Islamic Arab World), whether a society is forward looking or relies heavily on tradition, the propensity to put off instant gratification today in order to save for a more sustainable future, the value a society places on education, etc.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 26 2017 14:54:38
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: My Offer (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
To put it another way, if all developing /underdeveloped countries were as rich as the industrialized world and had the same standard of living, would it still work? I'm approaching it from the exact opposite point of view than you as I'm not thinking about whether "the developing world is (...) poor because we are rich" but whether "we are rich because the developing world is poor (or at the very least, less rich)"
Again, I think you are asking the wrong questions. The question of whether "it would still work" if today's underdeveloped world had the same standard of living as the industrialized/developed world is moot. It is an exercise in naval-gazing for the reasons I mentioned in my post above. It might make an interesting parlor game to discuss over a bottle of wine, but it has no real-world application.
Regarding the question, "Are we rich because the developing world is poor?" it is the inverse of the question, "Is the developing world poor because we are rich?" Both suggest a zero-sum game, which is simply not the case. Volumes and various studies confirm that many factors contribute to a country's economic advancement or lack thereof, the major one being cultural factors mention above. The United States is not rich because Bangladesh is poor. The U.S. developed long ago, and Bangladesh's poverty had nothing to do with it. Likewise, Bangladesh is poor, not because the U.S. is rich, but because of its own cultural factors: over-population, lack of birth control, its religious culture, a lack of entrepreneurship in the Western sense, and probably dozens of other factors.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 26 2017 15:52:19
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Mark2
Posts: 1868
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: My Offer (in reply to Piwin)
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Anywhere in the world? Ever been to Central America? You have many people who are so rich they discuss the benefits of their 5 million dollar helicopters while sipping whiskey as crippled children are begging in the street. The middle class, what there is of it, is far far removed from that type of life. I know you wrote "western societies" but why not consider other areas? In my town we give the homeless tents.......we are so evolved :-)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
@chester
If that understanding of the situation is correct, which I honestly don't know, I would say that you're right in saying that "Americans didn't make that up", but perhaps it is exacerbated there by the extent of wealth inequality which I don't think exists elsewhere in the world (i.e. the gap between the highest economic portions of society and the middle class is much bigger in the US than in other Western societies I believe). I've also read that the extent of wealth inequality correlates (in this case, negatively) rather well with certain other indicators associated with democracy, such as freedom of the press indices, range of political views to choose from during elections, trust in public institutions, etc.
edit:
@Anders Eliasson
sorry Anders, somehow I clicked reply to you when I meant to reply to chester!
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Date Jan. 26 2017 16:10:24
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: My Offer (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
Regarding the question, "Are we rich because the developing world is poor?" it is the inverse of the question, "Is the developing world poor because we are rich?" Both suggest a zero-sum game, which is simply not the case.
Which is why I added "or at the very least, less rich", which does not suggest a zero-sum game at all. The question is whether inequality is a built-in feature of a functional economic system, whether local, regional, national, international or whichever scale you choose. Whether it is necessary for it to work. There are in fact many potential real-world applications. Among others, answering that question would have a huge incidence on the end game of several economic frameworks. Like any theoretical question, the real world application tend to emerge later on in time. Hopefully you don't tell researchers who are doing work that as of yet has no real-life application that what they are doing is "naval-gazing" or "parlor games".
But fair enough, let's just drop it as a moot question.
@Mark2. You're right. I think the idea behind limiting it to "Western countries" was just to compare countries that are in other respects rather similar. Opening it up to the entire world brings in way too many factors than I'm comfortable handling at the same time! South America is notoriously bad, so is southern Africa. If I remember correctly, the US is in the lower tier but indeed not the worst. At this point, all we know is that wealth inequality correlates with certain other things, but we don't know whether there is any kind of causal link. Last year we passed the point where 50% of the world's wealth was held by 1% of its population. Apparently that is a non-issue for some. For others like myself, there is something profoundly disturbing about that.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jan. 26 2017 16:21:26
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: My Offer (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
The question is whether inequality is a built-in feature of a functional economic system, whether local, regional, national, international or whichever scale you choose.
Let me try and answer the question you pose above, based on my experience as a diplomat in various countries and a good deal of study of, as well as practical experience working in, the political-economies of those countries. I would apply my answer to economic disparities within countries as well, including the United States.
My studies and experience suggest to me that there is no theoretically "perfect" economic system, whether one speaks of Capitalism, Socialism, or some variant of Communism. Nevertheless, in taking Capitalism as an example, I do not see inequality as a built-in feature of the system, i.e., there is no inherent inequality present in a Capitalist system that is independent of the people participating in the Capitalist system. What we perceive as inequality is not a function of the "system" as such. Rather, it is a function of the varying abilities and cultural traits that people participating in the system bring to it. As noted in my previous post, there are cultural traits and abilities that advance economic development, individually and collectively, and there are those that impede it.
I would make one caveat in that we have clearly seen that there is a great disparity in economic development when one compares systems. In the heyday of "Socialism" of whatever stripe, whether that in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, or so-called "African Socialism," or the infamous "Burmese Way to Socialism," it did not matter what traits an individual or group possessed, the system itself stymied any attempt at development or advancement compared to the Capitalist world of the West. When the British left Burma, it was the greatest rice exporter in Asia. After Socialism took over, it became a net importer of rice. And, of course, Socialism drove many African countries into the ground. And the residue of Communism is still evident in Eastern Europe compared to the West.
One further caveat, there will always be those in any economic system who try to manipulate it and "game" the system, sometimes unlawfully, in order to gain a greater advantage. Like inequality, I do not view that as inherent in the Capitalist system, and certainly not necessary for it to function.
At any rate, that is my take on your question based on my study and experience in grappling with it over a lifetime.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 26 2017 17:05:31
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: My Offer (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
In other words, the developing world is not poor because we are rich. There are many reasons developing countries have not advanced as much as the industrialized world, and much of it has to do with cultural factors. There have been books and studies on the causes of development and underdevelopment by Samuel Huntington, Lawrence Harrison, and David Landes among others. They all point to cultural attributes as a major factor in whether or not countries develop: the heavy influence of some religions (e.g., the Protestant Ethic in the West vs. the Islamic Arab World), whether a society is forward looking or relies heavily on tradition, the propensity to put off instant gratification today in order to save for a more sustainable future, the value a society places on education, etc.
Bill Tagging some on to what you've said-
So true, a lot of of the cultural factors reach beyond social structure into business culture. In the US we have a business culture that is more suited to helping individuals begin a business, with the exception of racial discrimination in business loaning. Most people who are determined to begin a business can get something going and later secure capital to further expand.
In some countries this is not the norm and many business cultulre barriers are set up to discourage growth and keep certain kinds of businesses in as few hands as possible. The openness of the US system has been a reason so many immigrants come to the US to begin a business they could not have begun at home. In many countries business has quasi guild like rules, both written and unwritten that thwart new start up. And some of the new start up thinkers never get off the ground because those established in those industries require 'key money' before they allow others in the door.
The US has been a country where key money is been legally challenged over and over. The opposite is true in the US business culture, in stead of blocking new business the game is to litigate for no oversight or regulation, or a s little as possible. The US in some ways has the opposite challenge, how to moderate growth from the perspective of public interest and public safety.
And other Western democracies share the same problems. In Asian democracies there are hybrid forms of these problems that are rooted in
in old cultural convention as it meets the modern world. In Asian economic semi-democracies like China, the problem is solved through subsidizing business, but the results and goods don't perform as well.
In my travels through the years I've seen Americans don't really get what potential they have. Or what a bit of ingenuity can do in the relative free business space in the US. We had always had a 'gig economy' open for someone to make something and sell it.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 26 2017 21:35:07
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: My Offer (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
Anywhere in the world? Ever been to Central America? You have many people who are so rich they discuss the benefits of their 5 million dollar helicopters while sipping whiskey as crippled children are begging in the street. The middle class, what there is of it, is far far removed from that type of life. I know you wrote "western societies" but why not consider other areas? In my town we give the homeless tents.......we are so evolved :-)
A great majority of 'street people' have some history of mental illness, or are currently in a mental health crisis. Without getting onto blaming the people responsible, a lot of mental health assistance from the government was discontinued and it fostered a system where the cracks got wider and more citizens fell through the cracks into the street.
We also have a rich class in the US who are much like the helicoptering whiskey swilling braggarts of Central America, called the Republican majority Congress and president Reagan's legacy. Trickle down economics precipitated a lot of mentally ill folk into the streets, and the process has been tough to reverse.
I used to know a guy who is long dead named Sam Cherry. He was retired when I met him, but he ran a fantastic bookstore in my hometown. He was a photographer and he rode box cars with the traveling farm workers workers during the Great Depression of the 1930's. He photographed bread and soup lines, and farming work in California, his photos are in the history collections of several California history museums.
During the Reagan era, at the end, he said to me: "This is beginning to remind me of the Depression, the economy is good for some, but I see more street people as I did in those days."
I wonder what Sam would think now. His daughter was a homeless advocate in the LA area, she worked on a project in the 1980's were artists and architects designed light portable individual living structures to keep homeless people dry. There are problems some of which the government has to step up and solve for mentally ill people, and problems that people need to solve for themselves. Until the conservatives in congress who withhold more public health funding absolve themselves of selfishness and become more selfless, maybe giving out tents is not so bad.
Oh **** I blamed....sorry.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 26 2017 22:07:25
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: My Offer (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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Thanks Paul. I've noticed that since I've been living in Spain and focusing much more on Spanish, my English has taken a hit, and so has my French, my mother tongue! The upside is that I'm starting to feel pretty comfortable in Spanish. Except on the phone...man that can be tricky! Last week I was on the phone with a plumber. It was painful. We managed to set a date and hour for him to come by the house but it's still unclear to me whether he understood what the problem was. Hopefully he realized that when I said "si" or "vale" what I actually meant is "I'm a dumb guiri and have no idea what words just came out of your mouth!"
@estebanana
quote:
So true, a lot of of the cultural factors reach beyond social structure into business culture .
It gets even more complicated than that when you consider that, through globalization, certain cultures are "taking over" and clashing with others in the process. Spanish politicians run around praising geographic mobility as a value. And in the US it seems that it is perceived as a value, but try telling that to the many Spanish people who value above all else their "tierra".
On a side note, that's mighty grand of you to apologize on that other thread for something you didn't do. Next time someone calls me out on something and says "what a moronic thing to say", I think I'll act like I'm grammatically impaired and say he's straight-out calling me a moron. Just to be sure everyone gets it, i'll flood my post with capital letters.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jan. 27 2017 10:16:48
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Mark2
Posts: 1868
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: My Offer (in reply to estebanana)
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I agree that mental heath funding cuts created a lot of the "street people" and also agree the issue is more alarming now than any time in my life. Literally thousands of people living in tents on sidewalks, under freeways, and it's been really cold. Many have mental heath and drug dependency issues. Also, San Francisco's policy of providing various types of assistance brings people here.
I'd have to agree that there are people here who boast about their absurd wealth, but have to point out that they include liberal dems as much as repubs. Money isn't partisan. And neither is greed.
Don't know if you heard that Zuckerburg, the facebook baron, bought hundreds of acres of beachfront land in Kauai, and is now suing Hawaiians to force the sale of claims they have on the land. Most will not be able to pay the attorney's fees to fight.
BTW, "the helicoptering whiskey swilling braggarts of Central America" is the name of my new band!
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
Anywhere in the world? Ever been to Central America? You have many people who are so rich they discuss the benefits of their 5 million dollar helicopters while sipping whiskey as crippled children are begging in the street. The middle class, what there is of it, is far far removed from that type of life. I know you wrote "western societies" but why not consider other areas? In my town we give the homeless tents.......we are so evolved :-)
A great majority of 'street people' have some history of mental illness, or are currently in a mental health crisis. Without getting onto blaming the people responsible, a lot of mental health assistance from the government was discontinued and it fostered a system where the cracks got wider and more citizens fell through the cracks into the street.
We also have a rich class in the US who are much like the helicoptering whiskey swilling braggarts of Central America, called the Republican majority Congress and president Reagan's legacy. Trickle down economics precipitated a lot of mentally ill folk into the streets, and the process has been tough to reverse.
I used to know a guy who is long dead named Sam Cherry. He was retired when I met him, but he ran a fantastic bookstore in my hometown. He was a photographer and he rode box cars with the traveling farm workers workers during the Great Depression of the 1930's. He photographed bread and soup lines, and farming work in California, his photos are in the history collections of several California history museums.
During the Reagan era, at the end, he said to me: "This is beginning to remind me of the Depression, the economy is good for some, but I see more street people as I did in those days."
I wonder what Sam would think now. His daughter was a homeless advocate in the LA area, she worked on a project in the 1980's were artists and architects designed light portable individual living structures to keep homeless people dry. There are problems some of which the government has to step up and solve for mentally ill people, and problems that people need to solve for themselves. Until the conservatives in congress who withhold more public health funding absolve themselves of selfishness and become more selfless, maybe giving out tents is not so bad.
Oh **** I blamed....sorry.
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Date Jan. 27 2017 16:21:55
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: My Offer (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
I agree that mental heath funding cuts created a lot of the "street people" and also agree the issue is more alarming now than any time in my life. Literally thousands of people living in tents on sidewalks, under freeways, and it's been really cold. Many have mental heath and drug dependency issues. Also, San Francisco's policy of providing various types of assistance brings people here.
Mass deinstitutionalization and the emptying out of mental hospitals in the United States began in the 1970s, and Conservatives and Liberals are equally responsible for creating the resulting hordes of mentally ill street people that have plagued cities since. The Conservatives were happy to empty out the mental hospitals and thereby reduce the cost of keeping the mentally ill in them.
The Liberals, on the other hand, considered long-term commitment of the mentally ill in mental hospitals to be inhumane, and some far-out psychiatrists at the time even considered most mental illness to be just another form of "being" that didn't necessarily conform to society's norms. R.D. Laing, for example, suggested that mental illness could be a transformative episode whereby the process of undergoing mental distress was compared to a shamanic journey. The traveler could return from the journey with important insights, and may have become (in the views of Laing and his followers) a wiser and more grounded person as a result. This is pure twaddle, but it had a surprising effect and influenced many policy-makers of a liberal bent.
To sum up, the Conservatives managed to meet their goal of spending cuts through deinstitutionalization. The Liberals, on the other hand, demonstrated yet again that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If there were any justice in this world, both Conservatives and Liberals would be forced to endure one month in a padded cell filled with babbling, shrieking, mentally ill street people on their (as Laing would have it) "tranformative, shamanic journey" of self-discovery.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 27 2017 19:02:38
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: My Offer (in reply to tele)
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quote:
Some love some hate, it's obvious by now. Why complain on the foro?
The Foro is mostly comprised of white guys, white guys who don't have the same negative profiling stereotypes to fight as the folks who we love who make flamenco. Under the Trump admin I have grave reservations about whether Gitano artists will continue to feel safe to tour the US in the coming years.
During the previous decade under the Bush admin there was a real downturn in the amount of flamenco artists who were about to procure visas to tour in the US. Under the next admin that changed and artists were able to return to the US under travel visas and concertize. Now I realize that the importance of whether flamenco artists travel to the US to play is not a big factor in politics or the economy, but if looked at as one component of a bigger trend to obstructing travel and trade it does effect the economy, quality of schools, and myriad of other things. Charting the ease of entry for non US artists to concertize serves as a microcosm of how the system of free travel is working on its total scale.
And because we all love flamenco and we are mostly white males who are not traditionally subject to these demoralizing and unfair stereotyping practices we might do well to empathize with our friends from other countries who come to the US to live and to travel a play music to us. The US tour represents a lot of money for a group of gitano or non white aritists, perhaps from West Africa, Iran, India, China, and I think it's a good idea to think carefully about how the creators and stewards of the musical forms we hold dear are treated when they come to the US. And how they might feel entering a country that has displayed palpable hatred of the non white folks.
We really can't have it both ways. In Texas they have a saying- You got to dance with those what brung you - A countrified way of saying if you learned something from flamenco, or it enriched your life, or you support the artists it might be an obligation to advocate consideration for how they feel about touring the US and the possibility the current admin might not be so friendly to our esteemed foreign artists.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 31 2017 1:11:16
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: My Offer (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Herb Caen the great and institutionalized by line writer in the old SF Chronicle wrote about parking difficulties in the '70's and 80's.
I remember one day in about 1993 he wrote of being at the 'Washbag' Washington Bar and Grill, some guy got in his face and asked him why he wrote about trivial stuff like gossip and parking, and which movie star was seen at Mario's eating an eggplant sandwich. The guy said angrily to Caen "Don't you know there's a WAR ON!" Caen says back, "Hey buddy, don't you know there's a life on?
I loved reading Herb Caen in the Chronicle when I would be staying in or transiting through San Francisco. I have never lived in SF or the Bay Area, but I love the city and consider it a second home. I have been there so many times over the years on my way out or returning from the Far East or the Pacific, either staying in the city or with a good friend of mine who lives in Lafayette, and who for about 20 years owned a great Mexican restaurant named "Arturo's" in Walnut Creek. There were two things I always did: Go to City Lights book store, where the owner/poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti still maintained an office on the second floor while in his 90s (and maybe still does), and read Herb Caen.
There are so many stories told about Herb Caen. He always lunched with politicos and bon vivants at Le Central, the French Bistro restaurant on Bush Street. One of his friends was Harry de Wildt, who was described as being a "boulevardier." Harry deWildt once told the following story about an exchange with Caen at Le Central: "This absolutely drop-dead girl walked by the window one Friday," says deWildt. "And I said to Herb, "Jesus, look at this girl.' Herb shot back: "Yes, she's a knockout, but don't forget, she's a pain in the neck to some guy' "
Caen absolutely hated the Trans-America "pyramid." Nevertheless, he used it in his column with the tip bent. Herb Caen was one of a kind. We need more like him.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 31 2017 13:00:13
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tele
Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
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RE: My Offer (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
Some love some hate, it's obvious by now. Why complain on the foro?
The Foro is mostly comprised of white guys, white guys who don't have the same negative profiling stereotypes to fight as the folks who we love who make flamenco. Under the Trump admin I have grave reservations about whether Gitano artists will continue to feel safe to tour the US in the coming years.
During the previous decade under the Bush admin there was a real downturn in the amount of flamenco artists who were about to procure visas to tour in the US. Under the next admin that changed and artists were able to return to the US under travel visas and concertize. Now I realize that the importance of whether flamenco artists travel to the US to play is not a big factor in politics or the economy, but if looked at as one component of a bigger trend to obstructing travel and trade it does effect the economy, quality of schools, and myriad of other things. Charting the ease of entry for non US artists to concertize serves as a microcosm of how the system of free travel is working on its total scale.
And because we all love flamenco and we are mostly white males who are not traditionally subject to these demoralizing and unfair stereotyping practices we might do well to empathize with our friends from other countries who come to the US to live and to travel a play music to us. The US tour represents a lot of money for a group of gitano or non white aritists, perhaps from West Africa, Iran, India, China, and I think it's a good idea to think carefully about how the creators and stewards of the musical forms we hold dear are treated when they come to the US. And how they might feel entering a country that has displayed palpable hatred of the non white folks.
We really can't have it both ways. In Texas they have a saying- You got to dance with those what brung you - A countrified way of saying if you learned something from flamenco, or it enriched your life, or you support the artists it might be an obligation to advocate consideration for how they feel about touring the US and the possibility the current admin might not be so friendly to our esteemed foreign artists.
I would be more worried about NATO pissing off russia with their games in europe under democrat rule, not mentioning sponsoring terrorists in syria. Plenty of flamenco in spain for those who really want to hear it.
_____________________________
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Date Jan. 31 2017 15:18:18
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Mark2
Posts: 1868
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: My Offer (in reply to Piwin)
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Back in the 80's and 90's I did a lot of solo gigs including many society gigs. I was playing a nob hill apt across from the Top of the Mark when Caen did a few steps to malaguena. I also appeared in his column, when he wrote about a gig I did for a bunch of IRS agents. The IRS told me before the gig they'd probably pay me in cash, and Caen wrote that. They wrote me a check. What may be less common knowledge is that Caen was hated by many restaurateurs. Apparently he had a habit of showing up with guests, having a meal, then refusing to pay. That's the kind of juice he had.
Parking.... I have had incredible luck parking in the city, but I have a few tricks-even though I drive a Passat wagon, I have a commercial plate which allows parking in yellow zones. Tow away zones which end at 7pm, can be parked in at 6:45 when they are still empty. Once running late for a gig at union square I pulled a desperate move by pulling out a disabled placard. I have zero problem pulling illegal u turns, zipping the wrong way down one way alleys, or any other illegal moves in order to secure a spot. BTW, my construction parking signs were ripped down by someone over the weekend. Bought more....
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Date Jan. 31 2017 16:26:18
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