RE: double top flamencos

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jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

@John Shelton
Many people made trials by gluing plates of different materials (carbon, balsa, different kind of fabric etc) to the top but the advantage of nomex seems to be the whole 3d structure, and particularly the air between the sandwich.
Ross Gutmeier once used to glue carbon fibre to cedar, but I think he stopped to do so, and probably there is a reason.
Also other people like Robert Ruck or Friederich Holtier used to make all wood double top but eventually turned to use nomex.
The dealer of Dammann in USA said he is now using a different secret core, but I don't know more about it and don't entrust so much these kind of infos.
A lluthier in Italy posted some pictures of his tops made by gluing some silk to the spruce top with hh glue. I never tried, so I can't comment.
I read that recently I young fellow made a brilliant violin by reinforcing the top with some spider web, which is among the strongest materials in nature.
At the end I agree with Estebana: these things are promising but it's still to prove they can sounds the people like

Just to be clear...we plan to try a silk sandwich top. This would achieve a much thinner top than is possible with the nomex.

The nomex we're using is not the honeycomb variety rather it's little rectangles. This gives it much more stiffness in one direction so orientation is critical. I take this as a good thing but it's just a guess at this point.

We're putting the bindings on the first double top right now so in a few days I'll have a better idea of the sound, I must say that the tap tone is less than inspiring.

I'm enjoying the comments on this project...didn't think there would be much interest.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2016 18:18:03

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

The thing I find interesting about the double top concept is that reducing weight and gaining stiffness is a front line consideration. Then there is the less known idea, that by separating the two thin sheets of wood internal friction is reduced. It's interesting if you look at it that way; there are many things happening at once not simply trading in stiffness vs. weight.

Some makers are reducing weight by removing material from the top by hollowing it out then giving it a backing sheet of thin wood. The question is how does that effect the idea that there is a friction coefficient in a sheet of wood? Does separating the layers with air mean something different than gluing two sheets together to make a thinner stiffer sheet that is airless in the middle?

If I were gong to make a ply top of any kind I would talk to an engineer, like someone who designs aircraft wings what all that means. I did actually ask a wing designer and engineer who is an aerodynamisist what he thought. He also happens to be an instrument builder. I said what about making tops with laminated skins on top of a core? He said something about being able to engineer a laminated wing tip that is 3/8" thick which can withstand the stresses of supersonic flight...then about solid vs. laminated instrument tops:

He said nature already did it, wood has a core called Cellulose.

HAHA!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2016 0:48:50

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 19:45:21

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Joan Maher)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joan Maher

I really don't get the Carbon Fibre, Nomex thing.. No one would ever put this stuff in a cello or violin?

The loudness question is always a non-starter for me given pickups and mics for large theatres.

Well Joan, I have always been an experimenter and innovator. It has cost me innumerable sales in the past since customers run across experiments that didn't work and assume it was the result of ignorance or stupidity. Truth be told I may be ignorant and stupid but I like to try new things.

Double tops are hardly new since they've been around for many years but they're new to me. The first two have been very eye opening. I'm amazed at the clarity and balance as one plays across the strings. On most guitars there is an obvious change of tone as one moves from the 4th string to the third but on the double tops it is virtually nonexistent. These two guitars exhibit excellent volume and an nice flamenco voice. The customer who pushed me into the experiment is delighted with the outcome. He is a very professional flamenco guitarist.

We're in the finishing stage on these two guitars presently and I will post more about them when they are completed.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 22:36:14

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 23:13:35

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear
Congratulations but I've always been a little afraid of double tops due to repair work on one that has a crack in the top or braces that might come loose with constant pounding on the tap plate.

How do you regard this possibility?

Tom,

It's a definite concern and we haven't really decided how to deal with it. We do plan to enlarge the golpeador to extend well below the normal point (much like DeVoe guitars). As to cracks...since there is a sandwich with nomex in between the two outer layers of wood cracks are pretty much a non-issue, the epoxied nomex will hold any cracks exactly where they are. All one needs to do is fill them with something (ca, lacquer, etc.) and continue with the finishing process. The finished top will not crack from an impact since the nomex is holding everything in place. This is something new and very exciting for us. I'm looking forward to the next couple of double tops and will be posting more in the future when the first two are finally finished.

We're both getting old and tired which is a state that I'm sure you understand so our guitars take longer to complete than they used to.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 0:56:17

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 13:02:44

Randy Reynolds

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Joined: Feb. 23 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

I am in my 18th year of making double top guitars pretty much exclusively. Currenty I am on guitar number 270 that just happens to be a Cypress Flamenco. Of course I do make solid top guitars and also steel string variants and some of them are double tops as well. I do have over three dozen guitars in Asia and other tropical environments as well as in semi-arid climates such as where my shop is located here in Colorado.

To date I have not had a single guitar that has delaminated and only one double top with a top crack and ironically it is back in my shop for repair once again. I can't speak for other makers so I'll just limit myself to commenting about my own guitars. My double tops tolerate humidity changes better than solid tops as they seem to expand or contract without cracks or damage. They will behave similarly to solid tops with action changes due to environmental conditions....but they don't exhibit damage.

I have had to do repairs such a when heavy objects strike the top. In one case the owner didn't want to pay for a retop so I just cut out the damaged area of about three square inches and spliced in a solid piece. It looks awful but sounds just as good as before the damage. All that said I haven't had a lot of repair experience with double tops but I'm certain that most normal repair experiences apply. As a side comment I would object to the notion that double tops are "fragile" or "thin". They are neither. I make my double tops to the same specifications as my solid tops with the plates being 2.0 to 2.6mm thick in the sound production areas. Once constructed they weigh and feel the same as a solid top being a composite wood soundboard.

In terms of structural longevity if I had to bet on the best guitar soundboard to stand up to the ages, I'll pick the double top mostly due to it's tolerance to environmental changes. When I began making double tops I contacted adhesive maker's technical departments regarding the archival life of their products. I was told that the experience so far has 35 years proven and projected life was eighty five years for normal joints. In my application it was suggested that the adhesion would likely be much longer since it was protected from exposure. I have also done some destruction testing to my satisfaction. John Dick, the excellent Iowa luthier was actually the first double top maker in America and he has accomplished much more than I in these areas. I haven't built but perhaps a dozen Flamenco guitars and I am glad to hear that they do stand up to the percussive effects by evolved players. My double tops BTW have the upper bout as a solid lamination with only the lower bout being of Nomex.

Tone production of the double top is a personal thing. If you trust recorded music for your evaluation most luthiers would agree that you are being mislead as very few attempts have been made to accurately reproduce the instrument. Moreover the sound from the live guitar varies either as a player behind the instrument or when hearing it out front as in an audience. My personal choice tends toward Spruce guitars for double tops and I was the first maker to do Spruce double tops. Cedar topped guitars lend themselves to the double top very well but I typically hear a very slight synthetic sound from them which isn't really an issue all by itself. If your ear can distinguish between a solid top Cedar or Spruce then what you'll likely find is that the double top tends to bring both of those sounds more toward the middle. When I began making double tops I wanted to make the Spruce double top sound exactly like it's solid top cousin. To achieve this requires some design changes and specific material selection. There is a lot of discussion around just what this means and I would refer the reader to my website where most of these topics are illustrated. That includes bracing design, bridge shapes and rimset construction.

Sound characteristics of the double top tend toward clarity and balance and that seems to say "louder" to most people. One of the best guitars I have ever played was a Honduras Rosewood/Cedar Rodriguez Sr. However it was so resonant that the always troublesome treble "E" string was full of problem notes especially up beyond the seventh fret. The double top seems to greatly reduce if not eliminate these issues. I do believe that bracing design including the back has a part to play in this.

One of my favorite guitars was a solid top Conservatory in EIR/Blue Spruce made for a local client. Even when brand new it had a marvelous "Spruce" sound that I rarely hear. To me this was the mental gold standard to shoot for in my double tops and it can be achieved but you have to pay your dues at the workbench. This is especially important for double top Flamencos I believe.

I have read in this thread all of the worries about double top construction that were disposed of at least a decade ago. If you haven't made a double top and prefer a traditional style of construction that is all well and good. But to express concerns about the double top that are basically conjecture isn't productive although very much in the luthier tradition :0) I would be willing to share anything I know about the double top design and construction with anyone. You can either inquire here or through my website.

One last thing.....my personal guitar is a Cypress/Spruce double top intended as a "hybrid" classical that can make Flamenco sounds when asked.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2017 16:56:14

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Randy Reynolds)

Thank you Randy. I don't think I've seen you post on here before, welcome!

I spent some time on your web site before making our first double tops and it was very helpful. Thanks for generously sharing your experience and knowledge. Our first two double top flamencos sounded great without finish and are now nearing completion. We were so happy with them that we've already started two more as well as a double top classic.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2017 18:33:24

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2017 19:01:25

Randy Reynolds

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Joined: Feb. 23 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Hi John,

I was here some years ago and decided that while I enjoy Flamenco music and making the instruments, I just couldn't really generate enough orders because of our location. Right now I am the only full time classical luthier in Colorado. Good luck with your double top projects I'm sure you will find them productive.

Tom, there are no issues with the bindings at all...it just takes a bit of courage. Also without opening that tuning subject up again, I don't really find I need to adjust the tops or bracing. I know you believe in that but sometimes you need to try different techniques in order to find your way to your objectives. For example:

I have found that the radial symmetrical bracing helps a lot.

The "Ring Bracing " on the back helps.

Redesigning the rimset construction helps both volume and richness of tone.

I now rout a cavity in the lower bout only for the Nomex.

etc....

If you're able to get $10-15,000 for a Flamenco guitar I certainly wouldn't change a thing! I should be so fortunate.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2017 19:17:21

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2017 1:25:20

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Hi Randy,

Very nice you have dropped by. Don't be leaving too soon this time, ok. Your view point is valuable to me and will be i'm sure many others who are not aware of your work yet. You were very kind to me when I was having doubts about my own work some years ago. As far as I'm concerned you've really earned a place in the guitar world.

I've had a lot of fun with discussing bracing patterns vis a vis flamenco guitar with the example of your first flamenco that was done with Kasha bracing that worked just fine. I have a straight ahead traditional thing going, but I'm happy you can join in and logically advocate for several kinds of bracing and building from an experienced and long practiced point of view.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2017 4:37:24

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2017 15:43:50

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Here's an interesting article on Gernot Wagner with a nice piece by Jason Vieaux at the end. I may try and build one in the future just to form a better opinion.

http://classicalguitarmagazine.com/gernot-wagner-the-master-luthier-on-the-double-top-movement-and-his-influences/

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Gracias!

Joan Josep Maher

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2017 10:04:24

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2017 13:44:53

Randy Reynolds

Posts: 30
Joined: Feb. 23 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

I do stop by here at Foro Flamenco from time to time. I don't feel like I have much to offer except maybe on this double top topic. I have long felt that the Flamenco guitar sound (of which there are several) can be achieved but perhaps never exceeded.

Mostly in my own classical guitar work I have tried to produce an instrument that reduces problems of even tone production and provides excellent clarity. I suspect those objectives are common in a Flamenco guitar as well.

Richard Brune once advised me that if I could produce an instrument to the vision that the client described that I would always be busy. This has been difficult however I believe I have a pretty good track record in that regard. Achieving that goal often means that I am not producing my own signature sound whatever that might be but rather the one that the client prefers.

I have had the experience of two different clients in the same day describing an existing guitar as being alternately warm or bright. Most can specify a recording that they really like and can I get close to that guitar sound. That is when having a large recording library helps! Achieving a specific sound requires having a good wood inventory and the ability to select design features that might yield (say) a long sustaining guitar or another trait. I do not tune the guitar body once completed counting on experience and hope to get to the client's objectives. The double top concept is simply a platform that aids me in this process.

In thinking about the Flamenco guitar sound, I have built in several of the major schools of thought from Santos to Reyes but not extensively. I respect tradition but have this personal trait of always wanting to try something and that gets in the way of being disciplined.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2017 17:07:20

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2017 13:17:07

Randy Reynolds

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Joined: Feb. 23 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Hi Tom,

I have built a few Santos with varied bracings including the straight struts with an angled lower harmonic bar. The plantilla I use is off a pattern from a 1927 Santos from Stephen Faulk. I believe he said it was from a guitar in Gene Clark's shop. I found the best way to get that unique sound was to build in 75 years of age and that helps a lot :0)

I have built two of the Reyes from your GAL plan (you don't remember?), one from a Barbero plan from the LMI drawing and three Brian Burns strut designs which I like a lot. I remember that there were a few Ramirez designs as well. Most of my Flamencos though use my own radial symmetrical bracing and the Santos plantilla.

Depending on what sound ideas I might have I may graduate the double top (and back) by hand leveling before the outer plate goes on. I have two back bracing designs and haven't used ladder bracing on the back in 15 years.

I prefer to work with my own design based on advice given to me by John Gilbert who said I would do best that way. I have also built a lot in the Kasha style (not Flamenco) and what I took away from that was to use segmented bracing going under the bridge because I believe it allows the bridge to articulate sound better.

My first Flamenco used my own bracing based on a Torres except that each strut went from the lower bout all the way up through the upper bout and there were no harmonic braces at all. It is still the primary guitar that my instructor uses and it has a very big, luxurious bass side and very average trebles. The action ebbs and flows with the seasons and so he has three different height saddles plus an assortment of graphite shims in order to keep it playable.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2017 5:34:27

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Randy,

It would be cool if you showed us some of your back bracing ideas. I've seen them on your website. I've been curious about the ideas behind them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2017 6:40:30

Randy Reynolds

Posts: 30
Joined: Feb. 23 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Ok, Stephen here is some Flamenco heresy for you :0)

This is a picture of what is called "ring bracing" for the guitar back. It was originally developed by Fred Dickens who was a well respected acoustician and engineer. This was so named because it was the only design that caused a full ring mode when doing mode shape testing. Now I am not an acoustician, just a baggy pants guitar maker, but It looked to me as though it ought to be responsive and above all a pleasure to make.

So the first question is..."Does it make a difference?" Of course as with all things in acoustic design it's difficult to say. Intuitively, I feel like it lends to improved response in the instrument. Also it is an attempt to do something to see if the guitar back bracing can be improved as I was unwilling to just plod along with ladder bracing unless I had done something to test other ideas.

My other bracing is an "X" bracing with a low leg with a carbon cap. I generally feel like this might make for a louder guitar as the back is somewhat stiiffer.

Also in this picture take a look at the rimset and you will see that the lining/kerfing is much wider. This was developed on advice from Gernot Wagner that the soundboard vibrating area is too large to best use the energy from the strings. therefore if the area is "choked down" so to speak then the string energy can cause more amplitude in the top. However the total air volume in the guitar is needed which is why we wouldn't simply build a smaller box. In addition, the larger linings make for a much stiffer rimset and I'm sure this also contributes to volume. These developments definitely work to make a more powerful guitar and also seems to yield a richer sound to my ear.

I have since gone to a combination of 1/4" Mahogany linings with conventional reverse kerfing laminated to them in order to achieve the same dimensional effect.

Incidently just to make sure the reader is horrified by these ideas I have also gone to making all bracings on the top and back with square, sharp edges....no more nicely rounded braces. The reason for this is that when air moves over a surface such as an airplane wing there is an effect called the Reynolds Number and it is related to either laminar or turbulent flow of the air. I am also an model airplane designer and flyer and in that world it is common to use turbulators to help the air flow over a surface without detaching and causing more drag. Often these turbulators are sharp in nature and so borrowing from that idea I have been using sharpened shapes for my bracing.

So how does this apply to the guitar? I think we all know that the guitar body is a form of air cannon where if you hold the soundhole close to your face and tap on the top a good sized puff of air can be observed. It's pretty self evident that air is moving inside the guitar body and therefore why not use internal shapes that help it move the way it wants?

Finally I agree that there is no proof that any of these ideas work. I am not an engineer or science based acoustician. However, I see no reason why a guitar maker shouldn't use his ingenuity to try things to see if improvements can be mage to a proven 150 year old system called the guitar. I'm also in favor of reproducing traditional designs....there are many paths in the world of guitar making.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2017 16:05:38

Randy Reynolds

Posts: 30
Joined: Feb. 23 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

I can see that my picture didn't come across so i'll try to fix that....maybe I should just stick to guitar making!

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2017 16:09:10

Joan Maher

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Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Randy Reynolds)

Thanks for that Randy extremely interesting to read your approach and views, it's always good to bring in other experiences to existing processes.

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Gracias!

Joan Josep Maher

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2017 8:22:01

Echi

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RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Thanks for sharing, very nice.
Matthias Dammann does practically the same, keeping the shape of a Torres guitar as inner plantilla. I suppose this wouldn't work well for a purebred flamenco guitar but it's very interesting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2017 10:44:52

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2017 8:05:00

Randy Reynolds

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Joined: Feb. 23 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Hi Tom,

I don't really want to wear out this topic for the reader so I'll just post a couple of pictures and try to explain briefly what's going on relating to what I have previously posted.

I have shown the Radial Symmetrical bracing which is my standard and was developed out of some Kasha ideas namely the segmented braces under the bridge. It is fun and accurate to produce and with a vacuum frame can be produced in less than two hours. each brace is shaped off the soundboard. Note that the edges on all braces are sharp and not rounded. It is well proven.

Then there is the Nomex pattern where the land area outside the Nomex mimics the rimset shape. I prefer this shape to all previous formats having found that there is little reason to put Nomex in the upper bout which produces little usable sound. It is also very sturdy proven by many guitars living in tropical climes.

Hope this helps!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2017 15:25:05

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2017 16:10:13

Randy Reynolds

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RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Tom,

I've doen several variations and i believe this current version does all you suggest unless I misunderstand your idea.

Also you assume that the double top over Nomex is fragile....it is not. I once had a sheet of 4' by 8' sheet Nomex stored between two sheets of 1/8" corrugated cardboard. It so happened that the wind blew the sheets over so that it laid flat on the garage floor and my wife drove our 5200 lb Land Cruiser up on top of it where it stood for several hours until I discovered it. Result: No damage at all and I used the Nomex on several sucessful guitars.

That said I have never had a double top Flamenco pounded on by an evolved guitarist so I was happy to read that a previous poster reported no problems. One assumes that the golpes are are being performed on a tap plate rather than bare wood.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2017 18:24:40