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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated?
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to payaso)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: payaso
Just a small postscript to your excellent history of the evolution of the market in violins.
In blind tests of sound quality exceptional new violins commonly beat old instruments by the great luthiers. This suggests that the prices of old violins are only partly dependent on sound: much the greater proportion derives from their antiquarian value and, perhaps, their cachet for aspiring players. The situation with guitars is surely similar. The prices of new instruments are not so very different but, as you say, guitars are generally much younger and the antiquarian value is only now beginning to climb. Guitarists are indeed lucky.
I have mentioned it before, but I will repeat in this context: Years ago I read an article in "Money" magazine by a financial reporter who set out to determine what set the price of rare violins. He consulted the six most well known and prestigious dealers.
They pretty much agreed on the criteria. They included authentication:can you prove who made it?; provenance: has it belonged to somebody famous?; condition...etc. The reporter conducted his interviews and reviewed his notes. He found that none of the dealers had mentioned sound as a criterion. The reporter was puzzled. After all these were musical instruments.
The reporter re-visited dealers and asked why sound was not a factor in setting the price of the most expensive violins. He wasn't given a clear answer until a dealer finally explained it to him.
If five of the most famous players were asked to rank five of the most expensive violins, very likely each player would come up with a different ranking. Their choices would depend upon playing style, technique, personal taste and so on. Since there is no consistent ranking of sound among the greatest experts, it is of no importance in setting the price.
I have four classical guitars and two flamencos. In today's market some of them are worth ten times as much as some others. I have my favorites. I prefer the most expensive flamenco, but my favorite classical is worth very much less than the most expensive one.
Some of the guitars go for weeks without being played. I get to thinking, maybe I ought to sell this one or that one. Then I get it out and play it. I always conclude, "Hey this is a great guitar--it's just not my favorite."
...but I did give one classical to the local guitar society. It was the cheapest, and, I thought, objectively not as good as the rest. The society lent it to a student who is using it to audition for college and conservatory admission.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 8 2017 20:10:41
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
quote:
Pretty depressing until you think that you can get a good guitar for $5000.00 and it will last a lifetime and appreciate in value if you buy well in the primary market.
Although true, the key phrase you use is determined by being able to find value at any range in price. And this is not always an easy search.
Stephan, you, Anders, VAHE, others on this list, are players who can search out certain idiosyncrasies in tone and this helps to finalize a guitar's voice BEFORE we pass it along to customers. And although this doesn't take away from other master builders abilities to formulate sound, I think it does give some advantage.
But to the point of collecting instruments. It has always been toward a small company to grow with that ideal in mind. And if they grow larger, then it's always going to be the market that determines the price.
And to the larger factories, it's a crazy world out there to everyone who has vision to compete in the market place.
Finding a good guitar today is pretty easy, there are more builders who have ten to twenty years experience, and more factories that make a serviceable guitar- and on top of that more quality at the lower price ranges.
The biggest problem today is guitar players who have "Princess and the Pea Syndrome" - They are spoiled by a market supplying high quality goods in surplus at rock bottom prices. But there's more, the guitar players today might have less disposable income for guitar buying. Among those with no shortage of means, the world is full of fabulous guitars, the idea that only a few sound good is preposterous, beginners are turning out fairly nice guitars by # 10 or 12 because of all the books, classes and the online coaching on forums. Guitar making is going gangbusters with quality and competition. Today all a guitar player has to do is decide which up an coming maker they want to patronize and watch them develop and step in and order a guitar when they get good, but have not yet increased the asking price. That is the game today.
I've watched players game the beginner level building so many times that I can almost predict when they will order a guitar from a certain maker. And at the upper level of those who have slugged it out for more than ten to fifteen years and really learned to build, and paid dues as makers, there is still a lot of competition and not as many makers wash out as used to happen. The market today is a players paradise. It is a players market.
As far as sound, I don't take anything for granted anymore. I've been advised by some top players that they are not looking for refinement, or sophistication, or complexity. They want guts, rawness, unevenness, character, punch, stopping power, quietness, and not fussy over thought sound shaping. They want dry, plain, drum sound. And not in a fancy over dressed package of elite priced binding and purfling options. They want a stripped down hot rod that sounds like narsty grit filled, bruised ill tuned snare drum that plays chords.
Now there are only so many players with that level of wisdom. So we cater to the folks who like the mellifluous tones of a guitar maker speaking eloquently about the refinement they bring to the art and how they are making guitars modern and better and elegant, and and and .............it's all total hogwash.
You make the guitars you make if you build with your heart, and you're dammed lucky if someone wants to give you money for one of the cussed things.
You make what you make despite yourself. That's it. "Por favor, La puntita, nada mas" he begs of her. Everything else is dogdammed talk.
The players choose, we're just whores they use, we're just great big whores. We're not secret geniuses, or keepers of any mystical information, we just make by the seat of our pants and put our guitars in shops, like prostitutes being shopped out by guitar shop pimps. The Pimps talk about how super duper we are and inflate, conflate and discombobulate our lives and goods to make reputations. But in the end the payer has to turn the transaction and give you money for a guitar.
There are a lotta whores, a lotta pimps and a lotta people who want guitars. Some of us are back seat Betty's, and some of us are $5000.00 dollar a night escorts. But we're all whores.
And the vice squad only wants us to pay the rent, they want a cut of our action.
Pay to play.
The trick is that some of us are better at being whores, by that, I mean making guitars.
Reyes, sure, high end escort. Is it really worth it? Ask yourself.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 9 2017 0:39:21
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
As far as sound, I don't take anything for granted anymore. I've been advised by some top players that they are not looking for refinement, or sophistication, or complexity. They want guts, rawness, unevenness, character, punch, stopping power, quietness, and not fussy over thought sound shaping. They want dry, plain, drum sound. And not in a fancy over dressed package of elite priced binding and purfling options. They want a stripped down hot rod that sounds like narsty grit filled, bruised ill tuned snare drum that plays chords.
Now there are only so many players with that level of wisdom.
When I first met Ricardo we had a drink in the bar after his gig. He handed me his Conde. I was still deep in the throes of recovery at the time, but I did manage a couple of rasgueados and a slow picado or two.
I was struck by the percussive quality, loudness, and utter lack of sustain.
A few years later he came to my hotel room to play the Arcangel, which I like a lot better than his Conde. Even on a cellphone video, people on the foro remarked on the big bass. Some praised the tone. Ricardo didn't have much to say about the Arcangel, except that it was notably better than the ones he had played before.
In my opinion, the Arcangel is "old school." My playing is old school: I grew up in flamenco listening to Sabicas, Ramon Montoya, Melchor de Marchena, Niño Ricardo, etc. They capoed up as high as the fifth fret when playing solo. Though I don't go above the third, I think that explains a lot of the big bass and long sustain of the great Barberos, etc. When you capo that high, it kills the bass and sustain. If you want any at all, you have to have a lot to start with.
Richard Brune likes the Arcangel. His playing is old school as well. Modern players almost all play into a P.A. system. You would have to eq the bass way down on the Arcangel, and hope it kills the sustain to some extent as well. But in a decent room with no P.A., I like the sound. Brune has a nice showroom. It's good sized, I would guess maybe 30 feet long. There's not much furniture. The hardwood floor is well dinked up by dancers' heels. Old school guitars sound great in it.
Ricardo told me he likes best some of the Condes in Brune's collection. Brune and I like the Barberos and Estesos...but one of my good buddies has a '73 Conde I really like.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 9 2017 2:26:27
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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And what's more, some modern players like sustain, and they might want no sustain one day and pick up another guitar the next day and play one with sustain.
I've been advised over refinement, and elegance is not going to win the battle. And interesting when I've made the Tuna Fish can raspy frightening guitars, only the best players can identify them, everyone else is scared of them, think they sound too primitive or rough. As soon as an advanced player picks it up they say "this, this, this, do more of this".
Do more of what scares people. Elegance is for Geisha and classical guitarists to make pursuit of. Make scary monsters. It's not wine tasting and talking about raisin flavor here and plum finish, that's all crap. Sound is non explainable in words, sound is its own language, and you hear with your guts not your ears.
Furthermore.....blah blah blah
See what you've done Bill? You invoked academia on me and I had to go all 'Dead Poets Society' on everyone to cleanse my soul. 
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 9 2017 2:50:12
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
My playing is old school: I grew up in flamenco listening to Sabicas, Ramon Montoya, Melchor de Marchena, Niño Ricardo, etc.
Careful, Richard. You're beginning to tread on my "Old School" territory now. Take care lest you, too, be tarred with the dreaded epithet "traditionalist," as one who denies the wonders of modern "fusion" and multi-instrument ensembles in flamenco.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 9 2017 13:02:19
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
I feel very thankful that my love for this art supersedes my ability to make a big splash on Broadway. So, Stephan, I wish you well but we are quite different in our search for happiness.
I would love to make a big, big splash on Broadway, it would be a good distraction and a lot of hard working fun around hot young chorus women, who would leave me frustrated, no doubt.
We really are not different under the froth of words or addiction to making to making guitars. What makes us happy, I think, is not a search, but acceptance that our desire for happiness is false or what we think makes us happy is false. I desire to be famous and rich, but desire is not real.
Just be happy day to day. It makes me happy to make fun of our chase of happiness. I'm amused by such little things, if you only knew my story. If I only knew your story.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 9 2017 13:03:13
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
My playing is old school: I grew up in flamenco listening to Sabicas, Ramon Montoya, Melchor de Marchena, Niño Ricardo, etc.
Careful, Richard. You're beginning to tread on my "Old School" territory now. Take care lest you, too, be tarred with the dreaded epithet "traditionalist," as one who denies the wonders of modern "fusion" and multi-instrument ensembles in flamenco.
Bill
I'm just talking about what I play at the moment, not everything I like to hear. I've recovered to the point where I can play some of the stuff I used to. Where it will go from here remains to be seen.
You may rest secure in your territory, Bill. But I will say that the last time I saw Tomatito's "Big Show," the part that did the most for me was the dancer Paloma Fantova.
Later, when Niño de Pura came to town, I enjoyed his show. Less P.A. (though there still was some), more cante and guitar.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 9 2017 17:41:03
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to jshelton5040)
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quote:
This is nonsense! It's nothing more than a fascinating craft, Susan and I are addicted to guitar making and wouldn't know what to do with our lives without it. It's not an "art", it's just fun and challenging. Why does every endeavor have to be such a "big deal"? 50 years from now nobody will have ever heard of any of us.
EN GARDE John!
Nonsense? You deem my sarcasm nonsense! How dare you! John notice I said the hot young girls would not pay attention me. Everything I've been saying is poking fun at seriousness.
Gene Clark said: "Guitar making is not a profession, it's a neurotic hang up."
Put cher spectacles on dude, you know I'm irreverent. I'm quite sure however you and I will be well known in 50 years - Buskers will be playing our guitars in front of bus stations!
Classical folk scan be serious and heavy, flamencos like me and you, we are the smart ass class clowns. You know in some African cultures on the West Coast there is a tradition of wise fools, truth tellers who act odd, who tell a lie before they tell a truth. There is a deep connection to that West African culture and flamenco culture. There's a Ben Stiller movie called 'Tropic Thunder', it is a send up parody of all the Rambo movies and the 'Deer Hunter'. There is line in the movie "Never go full retard." You would have to watch it, I suppose to get the context.
My philosophy is informed by Aristotle, Kant and Stiller. A distillation of the concepts I live by as a flamenco would be: Don't go out of compas unless you meant it, if acting a wise fool, never go full retard.
boom
BTW I can give you the number of a good treatment center you can check yourselves into for addressing that addiction. But stay away from Guitaranon, they are a pernicious cult who will take your money and wood.
I need to stop..........
Ethan does that answer your question?
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 9 2017 23:58:29
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Three angry over worked guitar makers were sitting in a bar.
A man came in, already drunk, sat down at the bar and ordered a drink.
The man looked around and saw the 3 men sitting at a corner table.
He got up, staggered to the table, leaned over, looked the biggest one in the face and said, "I went by your grandma's house and I saw her in the hallway, buck naked.
Man, she is fine!"
One grouchy guitar maker looked at him looked at him and didn't say a word.
His buddies were confused,because he was a bad ass, and would fight at he drop of a hat.
The drunk leaned on the table again and said, "I got it on with your grandma and she is good, the best I ever had!" The big nasty guitar maker still said nothing.
His buddies were starting to get mad.
The drunk leaned on the table again and said, "I'll tell you something else boy, your grandma liked it!"
The guitar maker stood up, took the drunk by the shoulder and said, "Damn it, Grandpa, you're drunk! Go home!"
* drops mic *
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 10 2017 1:42:04
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