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Divisive ignorance
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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 RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to ToddK)
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And this is probably to some extent why he won. I see it as a false equivalency, as if they were all the same, no one better or worse than the next. There is a sense in which it's most likely true to say that power corrupts, but as long as people consider everyone in politics as criminals, as long as they imagine bankers in a dark room secretly plotting the demise of the working class for their own profit without any sense of morality, they'll fail to see where the actual problems lie, to see that if you replaced all of them by regular citizens, gave them the same money and influence, you'd have the same proportion of well-intended people, ill-intended people and people who just didn't care. The issues are systemic and complex, not just an easy good/evil them/us. Some are jaded because they know too much. Most claim to be jaded because it is the easiest route and doesn't require even bothering to look into things.
In the meantime, it is an odd thing that those of abroad just might have more reason for concern than those in the US, as indeed the checks and balances are much stronger in domestic policy than they are for foreign policy.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Nov. 9 2016 9:25:07
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)
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The pundits will earn their pay over the next few days attempting to explain Trump's victory and why it was such a shock. As someone who will remain unpaid, I would like to offer my thoughts herewith. There are several reasons for the election results, not the least of which is the baggage Hillary carried with her. But I think one of the main reason's for Trump's victory and Hillary's defeat is the rebellion of the white working class. It had a much larger effect on the election than anyone imagined.
I come from a WASP background. (Yes, we WASPs existed in Arizona. All are not produced on the East Coast!) Nevertheless, although not a member of the white working class, I have noted that for a long time the intellectual and cultural elites in the United States have looked down upon the white working class, trashing their culture, values, and beliefs.
There is much more behind the revolt of the white working class than just “Neoliberalism” or the fact that the Democratic Party is not sufficiently Leftist. Looming large was a cultural component that liberals, intellectuals, cultural elites, and others on the Left are loathe to acknowledge.
Liberals, intellectuals, cultural elites, and those on the Left have very often exhibited a smug attitude toward the white working class, sneeringly referring to them as “clinging to their guns and religion,” as Obama did, or as a “basket of deplorables,” as Hillary Clinton did. One does not have to agree with white working class attitudes and beliefs to at least debate them in a civilized manner without shutting them down as ignorant and deplorable.
What we are witnessing is, in part, the rebellion of a class of people in America who are tired of being put down by a smug segment of American society who makes no bones about the fact that they think they are superior, and that the cultural mores and beliefs of the majority of the white working class are unworthy. I think members of the white working class are tired of this smug attitude that writes them off instead of trying to understand their concerns.
We saw the same thing when much of the white working class voted for Ronald Reagan in 1980. They were called “Reagan Democrats” then, and they bolted the Democratic Party for many of the same reasons, cultural and otherwise, that they bolted today. The smug, sneering attitude of the intellectual and cultural elites in America toward the white working class is now reaping what it has sown. One hopes we learn from it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Nov. 9 2016 16:19:28
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Not that I don't think there's anything to that narrative, but I'd suggest it doesn't give the full picture. That there is such a perception among the white working class is undeniable. That some of the elite are smug is equally undeniable. However, I would add misinformation, or at the very least "selective information" to the mix. IMHO, part of the problem is precisely that what got the attention of those who convey the information to the rest of us are the easy jibes and sneers, that quite possibly may have been understandable in a given context, and not what is actually being done or proposed by said elite. To take just one example, it's mind-boggling how the little that Obama proposed on gun regulation was turned into "Obama's coming after our guns"I've had my share of discussions with friends that belong to the white working class on hot topics like gun control, gay mariage, the separation of Church and State, etc. What I've personally found is that we often didn't share the same baseline of facts. Once that baseline is established, conversation becomes much easier but getting to that baseline is no mean feat.. In any linguistic situation, there are (at least) three components: the emiter, the receiver and the medium. Which is responsible for the breakdown in communication is unclear to me, though my suspicion is that it has a lot more to do with the medium than with anything else.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Nov. 9 2016 17:15:48
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)
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Hold the phone while I vomit.
I'm from the white working class and I have actually worked. I have gone to college, and I have done a range of jobs from dish washing to carpentry to support myself through college and to keep my workshop going. I've lived in Indiana, Texas, Wash D.C. and California. it's been my personal experience that many of the people from the Midwest are not this nice wholesome people.
I've heard more unnecessary xenophobia from the times I've lived in Texas and Indiana, more intolerance, and intolerance from white working class folks than I have from anyone anywhere else I have lived. Snobbery from intellectuals, elitism? How about WWC folks are just dumb and bigoted. My uncles were, and the few alive are horrid racists, and my grandmother called black people niggers openly, she hated civil rights. White supremacist groups flocked to Trump.
I'm disgusted with the white working class, a bunch of fat ignorant racist ****s who never educated themselves, and have the hubris and lack humility in the face of those of us who paid to go to college- and taunt college educated people with epithets and harassment "Hey boy you think you know sumthin' college boy?" yes as a matter of fact I do because I cracked a few books.
Now they have installed a buffoon as the leader of a great country which serves as a bellwether for science, education , economy, trade markets and rule of law. He has flouted some of our greatest traditions of elected officials and harnessed the power of ignorance. The white working class should be ashamed of themselves.
Willful ignorance is not a cause, is not a movement worthy of our democracy. I'm pretty dammed angry that I pushed myself to get an education only to have it overridden by misogynist and racist idiots. What an embarrassment to those who have striven through education to make the United States a great country.
I suppose if someone from the White Working class becomes sick with cancer or a neurological condition that requires surgery that we the educated "snob class" should not operate on them because we are elitists? If a corporation is taking advantage of a group of people and an educated lawyer saves their asses by prosecuting a difficult class action suit on their behalf, that is snobbery? If an engineer creates a protocol to run cell phones, or make sure a bridge is strong enough to hold up under the weight or traffic that is more snobbery? Have dirt roads.
The reason the white working class has a level of life quality. physical infrastructure and legal protections better than that of many other other people around the world is because someone paid to become educated ; and in return we get shat upon by the ignorant for trying to make society stronger. and safer We get called elitist by a false narrative that was created by a manipulative conservative media. The white working class is welcome to live without doctors or lawyers- the intellectual can hike his or her sleeves and run the farm just fine.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Nov. 9 2016 18:52:02
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to estebanana)
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First, I didn't vote for Trump but I kinda have a habit of playing devil's advocate. Second, why are you so convinced that no doctors, lawyers, or Indian chiefs did? They obviously did. Third, you are really angry about the fact that you educated yourself? Where is the empathy for those who couldn't find their way to a college education? Is a lawyer more valuable to the country than a construction worker? I know you are upset with the result but I told my daughter months ago that life will go on without much change. And Obama just said the same thing. If he can accept the destruction of parts of his legacy, I think flamenco aficionados can live through trump.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Hold the phone while I vomit.
I'm from the white working class and I have actually worked. I have gone to college, and I have done a range of jobs from dish washing to carpentry to support myself through college and to keep my workshop going. I've lived in Indiana, Texas, Wash D.C. and California. it's been my personal experience that many of the people from the Midwest are not this nice wholesome people.
I've heard more unnecessary xenophobia from the times I've lived in Texas and Indiana, more intolerance, and intolerance from white working class folks than I have from anyone anywhere else I have lived. Snobbery from intellectuals, elitism? How about WWC folks are just dumb and bigoted. My uncles were, and the few alive are horrid racists, and my grandmother called black people niggers openly, she hated civil rights. White supremacist groups flocked to Trump.
I'm disgusted with the white working class, a bunch of fat ignorant racist ****s who never educated themselves, and have the hubris and lack humility in the face of those of us who paid to go to college- and taunt college educated people with epithets and harassment "Hey boy you think you know sumthin' college boy?" yes as a matter of fact I do because I cracked a few books.
Now they have installed a buffoon as the leader of a great country which serves as a bellwether for science, education , economy, trade markets and rule of law. He has flouted some of our greatest traditions of elected officials and harnessed the power of ignorance. The white working class should be ashamed of themselves.
Willful ignorance is not a cause, is not a movement worthy of our democracy. I'm pretty dammed angry that I pushed myself to get an education only to have it overridden by misogynist and racist idiots. What an embarrassment to those who have striven through education to make the United States a great country.
I suppose if someone from the White Working class becomes sick with cancer or a neurological condition that requires surgery that we the educated "snob class" should not operate on them because we are elitists? If a corporation is taking advantage of a group of people and educated lawyer saves their asses by prosecuting a difficult class action suit on their behalf, that is snobbery? If an engineer creates a protocol to run cell phone or make sure a bridge is string enough to hold up under the weight or traffic that is more snobbery? Have dirt roads.
The reason the white working class has a level of life quality and protections better than that of many other other people around the world is because someone paid to become educated and in return we get shat upon by the ignorant. We get called elitist by a false narrative that was created by a manipulative conservative media. The white working class is welcome to live without doctors or lawyers- the intellectual can hike his or her sleeves and run the farm just fine.
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Date Nov. 9 2016 19:25:12
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
things do change, sometimes dramatically and in a very short time span.
Among other concerns, I fear that Trump's ignorance and recklessness will upend the international order that has more or less existed since the end of World War II. The United States has always been in the lead on international trade. Although NAFTA has resulted in job losses in the U.S., the net gains have been greater than the losses. And export-related jobs generally pay more than those targeted domestically. If he pulls the rug out from NAFTA, it will be our (and Mexico's and Canada's) loss. Likewise with other trade agreements he has targeted. Of course, Bernie Sanders on the Left (and Hillary Clinton pandering to the Left), as well as Trump, are all against the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a trade agreement that would bind us to 11 other Pacific countries. Populists of both the Left and the Right misrepresent the effect of these trade agreements in an attempt to pander to unions and their ill-informed constituencies.
Likewise, I worry that Trump's (superficially) cozy relationship with Vladimir Putin will result in Putin pulling the wool over his eyes, to the detriment of the U.S. national interest. It's bad enough watching Secretary of State Kerry almost genuflecting to Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov over attempts to reach an agreement on Syria. I fear that Trump will have a false sense of confidence in his ability to come to terms with Putin. What Trump will be dealing with will be a Russian leader whose career as a KGB Lt. Col. has steeped him in intelligence tradecraft and deception. Trump will not know he's been taken until it is too late.
While the checks and balances inherent in the U.S. system work pretty well in domestic policy, they are less effective in foreign policy, as the Constitution grants the President wide latitude in dealing internationally. Trump's threat to pull the rug out from underneath our NATO responsibilities is another concern. NATO is a treaty, so the Senate would have to get involved, and one hopes cooler heads would prevail.
This whole mess remains to be sorted out, but it confirms in me my view that populists (of the Left and the Right) are never in the U.S. national interest.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 9 2016 20:33:17
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)
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This comes from a dear friend who prefers that her posts not be shared, but copying/pasting is okay and her words touched me. If you feel 'safe' because of where you live, the money you have-
"...what you're REALLY saying is "I'll be fine" because the color of your skin or your religion or your sexual preference or gender identity dictates you will be, and you may need to check that privilege right quick because the time has come for you to do so."
"I don't much pontificate online (anymore), but let me step up on my soapbox for a moment because I'm seeing some dangerous comments and rhetoric from individuals who believe we're all "safe" or "we'll be just fine" because we live in California. You feel safe out in those streets in that skin, don't you? Untouchable even?
I don't, and I didn't the day a truck full of men drove up to me in a parking lot and called me "Aunt Jemima" a few years ago. And, neither did the woman in the hijab standing next to me at the bus stop one day when a drunk man and his friend walked up to us in the middle of the day. We both looked at one another, wondering which of us would be his target for bigotry... because we knew he had a problem with one of us, or both of us, for just daring to stand on a street in San Francisco as people of color. And, what could I do when he drunkenly reached out and tried to pull her hijab off her head when his equally big ass, drunk and belligerent dude friend was standing not five feet from me? Nothing, except stand there in shock and pray he didn't reach for me next.
So, it's nice you feel safe because you live in California. It's great you feel you can walk up and down your streets in relative safety because you live in California. The privilege to feel that way must be nice. And, your ability and audacity to actually type such a thing (when a gaggle of you have people of color connected to you via Facebook) shows me exactly why the 45th President of the United States is who he is and why we haven't learned a damned thing in this country and have taken a step back 60 years in one night.
So, you go on and feel safe. You go on and skip down the streets thinking "we'll all be fine" because we live on the West Coast. Your sisters and brothers of color don't and won't. The fact a number of you on my list don't seem to understand that is not only troublesome, but disheartening and dangerous.
If you're one of those people thinking and saying "We'll be fine," what you're REALLY saying is "I'll be fine" because the color of your skin or your religion or your sexual preference or gender identity dictates you will be, and you may need to check that privilege right quick because the time has come for you to do so.
We are here. This is happening. It is time. Get with the program. Get in a room and have a real conversation with some of your more marginalized peers, friends and acquaintances and learn why we, indeed, won't be fine at all.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Nov. 9 2016 20:39:18
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