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RE: Divisive ignorance
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
My culture and the culture of someone from Arkansas are just worlds apart......
I was in Florida the other day, before the election. I met a woman who was polite and well spoken. We conversed pleasantly for a few minutes. A mutual acquaintance had told me the woman planned to vote for Trump. When asked, I told her I was from Texas. I believe she was politely trying to sound me out when she said, "We like Texas politics."
To avoid discussing the forthcoming election, I launched into a history of the split of the Democratic party, which once totally dominated Texas politics, into liberal (by the standards of the day) and conservative factions. To some extent this followed on the passage of civil rights legislation in the 1960s. The conservative faction then became a large component of the (not overtly racist) Texas Republican party. In fact, members of my extended family who are Republicans are overtly anti-racist, and few if any of them voted for Trump.
Leñador you feel totally alienated from the culture of Arkansas. Take a look at this electoral map of Texas.
https://i.redd.it/vhha92do2pwx.png
You will find very few counties in pastel shades, indicating fairly evenly divided support. Almost all counties are either bright red or dark blue. Step outside of dark blue Travis County (Austin) and you are immersed in a sea of red. Travel a ways south of San Antonio and you transition suddenly from bright red to dark blue.
It can be a bit disorienting. My own extended family members tend to share the affiliations of their counties, except for some divided loyalties along the border.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 12 2016 4:10:39
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Leñador)
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I remember having to stop in a few towns when I was hiking in NoCal near the stateline with Oregon. I remember thinking that the people reminded me a lot of some people in Oklahoma. But then again I guess there are ultrareligious conservatives and methheads everwhere  (Apparently the motel I stayed at catered to a lot of drug addicts!) As there of course decent people.
It does raise issues about the right to self-determination that we seem to recognize as a good thing but at the same time are rather loathe to go along with. In the UK, authorities seemed to respect that right, more or less, when it came to Scotland. On the other hand, Spanish authorities have done the exact opposite, claiming they would never recognize the results of a referendum on Catalan independence. I feel the people in Catalonya may share a similar impression to what you feel in California. On many social issues, they feel that they are far ahead and view the rest of the country as culturally backward. But, just like California, they are one of the major economic areas in their country, and their departure would severely impact the national economy, which explains in no small part why the central authorities are so much against it. Of course, in the case of Catalunya, they actually do have a majority that wants to be independent, which we don't know would necessarily be the case in California.
All of that being said, I sometimes feel that people exaggerate certain cultural differences. Viewed from abroad, the differences between Catalunya and the rest of Spain seem minimal. Similarly, the differences between California and the Midwest don't seem nearly as pronounced to a foreigner. Mainly because you come off first and foremost as being American and it is only once you get down to the nitty-gritty that people can actually make the difference. And to Martians, we'll all seem like Earthlings until they get a closer look and are able to differentiate.
There have been some interesting discussions within the EU over the last decade over what they've called "the rise of regionalisms". Though it is highly unlikely that we will dislodge nation-states any time soon (and still debatable whether that is even desirable), the discussions have been interesting. In a nutshell, it is about what kind of system we could have that would be both smaller than the nation-state, giving more power to the local level, and at the same time larger than the nation-state, since that also seems desirable on many levels such as having a smooth economy, diminishing the likelihood of war, etc. There are advantages (and disadvantages) to both and political theorists are trying to imagine some system that could combine the best of both. It is not dissimilar to what the corporate world has been doing over the last few decades, summarized in that hideous porte-manteau word: glocal.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Nov. 12 2016 11:10:05
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
People actually read and believe this crap!! The "intellectual elite" don't mind and even enjoy being proven wrong. These morons just gobble up pages and pages of BS lies that support their already bass ackwards way of thinking! It's insanity!! I just can't believe in this day and age these people exist.....
This is why I despise populist demagogues of both the Left and the Right. We saw each in this election: Trump on the Right and Sanders on the Left. They prey on the ignorance of those with limited horizons. In fact, it is amazing how alike Trump and Sanders are. Both are against free trade and trade agreements. Neither recognizes that most manufacturing job losses are due to automation, not "offshoring." Both threatened to raise tariffs on China, although China ceased depreciating its currency several years ago. And it goes on and on. Hillary was the only sane candidate, and even she had to pander to the Left-wing populists to win the nomination.
As I mentioned in a previous comment, I still think it is a mistake to write the white working class off and dismiss them, as many elites do. Doing so just isolates them further, and we are now reaping what was sown in the process. It is not necessary to agree with them in order to engage them. Lord knows many of their views are disgusting, as your example demonstrates, Lenny, as well as the example of those who profess belief in "Creationism," disbelief in evolution, and a dozen other ignorant viewpoints, ranging from race and ethnicity to economic populism. But we write off an entire class of people at our peril, as the recent election demonstrates. Engaging them may not have changed the outcome, but smugly dismissing them sure didn't help.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Nov. 12 2016 13:40:08
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Dudnote)
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Interesting article. A few oddities in it, like starting out with a list of movies where all the "good guys" and heros are country folk and later on in the article saying that TV shows and the like only portray rural people in a bad light, or as "jokes". (?)
But I can relate to at least a few of the things he said. To this day my parents believe that if I now identify as an atheist, it is because I "went to the city". Which in my case had nothing to do with it but I can imagine for some that would be the case, as you're confronted for the first time with different world views than the one you grew up with. And I suspect that at the time they thought my life was made up mainly of wild orgies and decadent parties, while it was work from 7am to 22pm, so not much time for that .
On the issue of race, I remember meeting a young Conservative who had travelled to DC for a new job. It was his first time outside of rural Indiana. The neighborhood was predominantly black. One evening he told us that while he was walking home, he had run into a group of black teenagers hanging out on the sidewalk. Mind you, they were on both sides of the sidewalk. He told us that he was afraid to walk in the middle of them. He was afraid they'd beat him up. But he also knew that they had seen him so he didn't want to walk around them, unless they thought he was "racist or something". So he sped up and walked as quickly as he could down the sidewalk. The poor kid was shaking when he got home. I went out on the porch to see what he had been talking about. It was just a bunch of middle-schoolers hanging out after class. While his reaction would fall into the "racism" category, I do think it is crucial to make the difference between what is ill-intended and what is just fear of "the unknown" (which can be cured just by a little bit of interaction with whatever it is you're afraid of). That kid wouldn't have hurt a fly, no matter race that fly happened to be, but he was just afraid of something he had never encountered.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Nov. 12 2016 19:47:12
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
Funny how the big cities are blue......always.
It's like the only people worried about immigrants don't even live near any.......
Until the invention of the mechanical cotton picker, my family were one of the largest employers of undocumented workers in the USA. From 1942 to 1964 there was the "Bracero" program which allowed for the wholesale contracting of temporarily immigrant labor in agriculture. More than once in the late 1950s-early 1960s I went to Monterrey, Nuevo Leon to negotiate labor contracts. I was the only family member who spoke Spanish, and one of very few who enjoyed traveling to Mexico.
The Bracero program was ended, largely due to the influence of the farm workers' movement led by Cesar Chavez in California. With no one else to harvest several thousand acres of cotton, we hired hundreds of undocumented workers from Mexico. Together with the other cotton growers in the Lower Rio Grande Valley, this depleted the supply of farm labor on the south side of the border. The owners of large cotton operations in Mexico had to hire people who immigrated illegally from Jamaica, Haiti and elsewhere in the Caribbean.
The mechanical cotton picker put an end to this situation, and to a source of income for thousands of people who had returned to Mexico after the cotton harvest each year. Regular ranch employees who drove tractors and carried out other skilled tasks operated the cotton picking machines. Since some of the old vaquero families disdained any work except punching cows, and very few local people did farm work, some of the tractor drivers were undocumented immigrants who took up permanent residence on the ranch.
In fact the foreman of the tractor drivers remained undocumented throughout his lifetime. His five children were all born in the USA. They include a lawyer, a doctor, a schoolteacher and a sheriff's deputy.
For a while my brother owned a farm near George W. Bush's "ranch" in north central Texas. (For a south Texan it's too small to go without the quotation marks.) My brother and a neighbor (another city person) shared the services of an undocumented worker from Mexico, who eventually disappeared mysteriously. It was assumed he returned to Mexico, perhaps voluntarily.
One of my close friends owns and operates a farm near Austin, and sells produce in the local farmers' markets. He employs from one to three undocumented workers, who live in trailers on his place, coming and going according to the seasons. He has employed the same people for years.
One of my favorite small restaurants in town has the best puerco en salsa verde I know of, and stocks very good tamales, which I occasionally take away to eat for breakfast. I chatted several times with a young man who took orders at the cash register. After he heard me speaking Spanish with one of the other employees, he seemed a little more relaxed. We talked about high school football in Austin. He was a recent honor graduate, and spoke perfect unaccented English. After the best part of a year, I indicated a painting on the wall of a town in Michoacan, and asked him whether he had any relatives in Mexico. Only his grandparents, he replied. I asked him whether he visited sometimes, saying I had been to that town. He replied that for the last few years, they had not gone, since it had become more difficult, "without papers."
My mother's sister, who passed away at the age of 102, was for many years the widow of a prosperous south Texas farmer. She leased the land she owned to a couple of local farmers and lived comfortably on the proceeds. She lived out in the country, miles from the nearest neighbor, accompanied only by the woman who had been her cook for decades. When my aunt traveled away from home, her companion accompanied her.
At a family gathering someone asked her about having her house burglarized. She replied, "I don't mind those people taking some bedding, food or water. They worked for us for decades and did a good job. It's hard trying to walk through the countryside when you can't ride the bus for fear of the Border Patrol."
"But aren't you afraid, living out there all by yourselves, just the two of you women?"
"They know when I'm there, and they don't come around when I am."
A wise and temperate policy on the part of the travelers. Aunt Mary was a dead shot with pistol, rifle and shotgun.
But I spoke with one of Aunt Mary's daughters at the funeral. She's a few years older than I am. No shrinking violet herself, she taught English and was a speech therapist in a tough little town in the south Texas brush country, where 95% of the people speak Spanish at home. She complained of the present day disorder of the border country, with the coyotes bringing people from Central America across the river, and the Border Patrol chasing them. Since retirement she has lived in a fair sized town, about 130 miles (205 km) north of the nearest point on the border.
My farmer friend nearby and my cousin both criticized me for voting for Obama. I don't know who they voted for the other day. Somehow I doubt it was either Trump or Clinton.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 12 2016 20:01:47
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to pundi64)
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quote:
God Damn I love Flamenco, and all aspects of it, this is why I belong to this forum, if I wanted to hear political BS, and it is all ***, I'd tune into CNN, hey guys stop all this talk, lets keep it on our main focus, a subject we all love.
What do you think the "Off Topic" section is for? As it states very clearly, it is for discussions that "have nothing to do with flamenco." If you don't like the topic, no one is forcing you to participate or read the comments. By the same token, don't try to impose your views on others who are participating. Stick to the threads that deal with flamenco, as we all do when we discuss flamenco topics.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Nov. 12 2016 20:03:12
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to pundi64)
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Well, I'd be happy to know what you think of the few videos I posted in the cante and guitar of the week threads. I personally don't have much else going on flamenco-wise at the moment that is of any interest.
I think it's normal that people, including flamencos, need to talk about this, vent a little perhaps, and work their way through it. I trust Escribano will tell us when he feels we're just beating a dead horse and need to get back to business.
It is a shame though that you think everything that was said here was "all ****". There have been some very interesting contributions to this thread, interesting in their own right, or in other words, that I would have found interesting even if the main topic hadn't been the current political one. But if you can't stand political talk or other stuff that are in no way related to flamenco, you're going to have a hard time in quite a few penas and tablaos that I know of. I'm sure there are others though where they take themselves more seriously. But where I tend to go, the music is part of a whole. We're not just there for that. We're there for the comradery (I feel I'm spelling this completely wrong!). Of course, there is always someone there who feels he hasn't got his fill of music yet. The usual reply he gets is "sure, let me just finish this one drink". A dozen drinks later, and long after that person has left, then we play.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Nov. 12 2016 20:31:44
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
Funny how the big cities are blue......always. It's like the only people worried about immigrants don't even live near any.......
I think we must be careful to draw a distinction between the yahoos who just don't like immigrants, i.e., "foreigners," particularly of the non-European variety, and those who have a legitimate concern about the number of illegal immigrants coming into the U.S. It is one of the elements of sovereignty that a country has the right to determine who may enter and live within its borders, and it is true that over the last 30 years there has been a huge number of illegals entering and remaining in the U.S. Advocates for illegal immigrants don't like to make that distinction, and too often they brand those who want to crack down on illegal immigrants while being perfectly open to legal immigration as "anti-immigrant." That is simply not the case with many people.
Here in the Washington, DC region, particularly in Northern Virginia, as well as in all of the border states such as Arizona, Texas, and California, the local school systems must provide the children of illegal immigrants, most of whom entered illegally with their parents, with an education. It really puts a strain on the financial resources devoted to education. It is often said by advocates for illegal immigrants that they pay more in taxes than they take in community resources. I have never seen a valid study that confirms that, and I doubt it to be true. Most illegals don't make enough to reach the taxable income threshold and are paid "off the books" in any case. I suspect that when one factors in emergency health care, pediatric care, and other services that would not be turned down when truly needed, Illegals gain considerably more than they contribute to the public coffers.
My own position on the subject of illegal immigration is that we must legalize those 11 million or so who are here. There is no way we could, or should, deport all of them. Some should be deported for criminal behavior or other reasons. But the vast majority should be legalized in some capacity. I would like to see the Immigration law reformed to put primary emphasis on accepting immigrants who possess the skills that we need. The UK, Australia, Canada, and other countries place a premium on immigrants that possess needed skills. We should, too. In particular, it is crazy that we force foreign students who finish PhDs in physics, chemistry, engineering, and other fields to return to their countries. Many would love to remain here, and we need them.
I would like to see us be much more proactive, however, in stopping the flow of low-skilled and unskilled immigrants flowing across the border from Mexico and Central America. One way to do this would be to severely sanction businesses who employ them. We simply don't need all the mothers, kids, and others coming in from Central America. We cannot build a "wall," but more border enforcement, coupled with the "E-Verify" system that would identify whether or not a prospective immigrant employee had a work permit, as well as severe employer sanctions, would put a huge dent in illegal immigration.
And I do think that the distinction should be clearly made between those of us who welcome legal immigrants but would like to stem the flow of illegal immigrants, and those yahoos who just don't like immigrants, legal or illegal.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Nov. 12 2016 20:42:55
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I grew up in San Francisco, the most liberal of cities, but it's not because of the people who were born here. The folks I grew up with are a lot more conservative than the average person who lives here. In fact, many natives are very conservative, perhaps because we have seen first hand what extreme liberalism has done to the city.
Bill I really appreciate your views in this discussion but disagree with employer sanctions being the cure for illegal immigration. The fact is the government wants the illegals here, and so does big business. They depress wages, which means more money for the business owners, no matter if they actually hire illegals or not. Every morning hundreds of illegals gather in front of various locations hoping to get hired for the day. It would be a simple matter to pick them up and deport them, but they don't.
Expecting people, be they business owners or someone who simply wants their lawn cut, to ignore this cheap labor pool is unrealistic. Joe the gardener wants 200.00 to remove that tree but Jose is willing to do it for $50.00 cash. You are never going to stop people from hiring Jose unless you deport him.
As a small business owner, I perform many tasks for the government for free. I collect and remit all sorts of taxes, produce and keep all kinds of records, and if I fail to do something on time, I pay fines. I don't want to be an unpaid ICE agent as well, when the government has made a clear decision to let illegals remain in the country. My city government has also made the decision to ignore immigration law and shield illegals from ICE, but business owners are supposed to enforce this law? Absurd. It's pretty clear the populace is largely against liberal immigration policy, and this was a key issue in Trump's campaign.
As it happens, my company works a lot for the government and my employees have to pass FBI background checks, so although I am in no position to hire undocumented workers, they work in vast numbers in my trade. THis hurts everyone in the trade except people who hire them. And recently a competitor who did use illegal labor was charged with two counts of manslaughter because two men died in his employ. So, I think the risk of using people who aren't covered by worker's compensation is pretty serious as it stands.
Finally, these protests over the election are certainly heartfelt, but are IMO a waste of political energy. Trump is going to be sworn in, and he will be the President. Saying "He's not my President" doesn't make it so. I think they would be more effective if they organized and created a political force. Worked fairly well for the Tea party folks.
As an American, I wish for the success of every president, and Trump is going to take more wishing than most.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Funny how the big cities are blue......always. It's like the only people worried about immigrants don't even live near any.......
I think we must be careful to draw a distinction between the yahoos who just don't like immigrants, i.e., "foreigners," particularly of the non-European variety, and those who have a legitimate concern about the number of illegal immigrants coming into the U.S. It is one of the elements of sovereignty that a country has the right to determine who may enter and live within its borders, and it is true that over the last 30 years there has been a huge number of illegals entering and remaining in the U.S. Advocates for illegal immigrants don't like to make that distinction, and too often they brand those who want to crack down on illegal immigrants while being perfectly open to legal immigration as "anti-immigrant." That is simply not the case with many people.
Here in the Washington, DC region, particularly in Northern Virginia, as well as in all of the border states such as Arizona, Texas, and California, the local school systems must provide the children of illegal immigrants, most of whom entered illegally with their parents, with an education. It really puts a strain on the financial resources devoted to education. It is often said by advocates for illegal immigrants that they pay more in taxes than they take in community resources. I have never seen a valid study that confirms that, and I doubt it to be true. Most illegals don't make enough to reach the taxable income threshold and are paid "off the books" in any case. I suspect that when one factors in emergency health care, pediatric care, and other services that would not be turned down when truly needed, Illegals gain considerably more than they contribute to the public coffers.
My own position on the subject of illegal immigration is that we must legalize those 11 million or so who are here. There is no way we could, or should, deport all of them. Some should be deported for criminal behavior or other reasons. But the vast majority should be legalized in some capacity. I would like to see the Immigration law reformed to put primary emphasis on accepting immigrants who possess the skills that we need. The UK, Australia, Canada, and other countries place a premium on immigrants that possess needed skills. We should, too. In particular, it is crazy that we force foreign students who finish PhDs in physics, chemistry, engineering, and other fields to return to their countries. Many would love to remain here, and we need them.
I would like to see us be much more proactive, however, in stopping the flow of low-skilled and non-skilled immigrants flowing across the border from Mexico and Central America. One way to do this would be to severely sanction businesses who employ them. We simply don't need all the mothers, kids, and others coming in from Central America. We cannot build a "wall," but more border enforcement, coupled with the "E-Verify" system that would identify whether or not a prospective immigrant employee had a work permit, as well as severe employer sanctions, would put a huge dent in illegal immigration.
And I do think that the distinction should be clearly made between those of us who welcome legal immigrants but would like to stem the flow of illegal immigrants, and those yahoos who just don't like immigrants, legal or illegal.
Bill
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Date Nov. 12 2016 21:38:13
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
My own position on the subject of illegal immigration is that we must legalize those 11 million or so who are here. There is no way we could, or should, deport all of them. Some should be deported for criminal behavior or other reasons. But the vast majority should be legalized in some capacity. I would like to see the Immigration law reformed to put primary emphasis on accepting immigrants who possess the skills that we need. The UK, Australia, Canada, and other countries place a premium on immigrants that possess needed skills. We should, too. In particular, it is crazy that we force foreign students who finish PhDs in physics, chemistry, engineering, and other fields to return to their countries. Many would love to remain here, and we need them.
Bill
The contractor who takes care of mowing my lawn and trimming my hedges conforms to your prescription, but the definition of "needed skills" might be surprising to some.
A couple of months ago I talked to him as we stood on my front lawn. He is about my age, and has lived in my neighborhood for at least 30 years.
He told me that year before last he spent $1500 advertising in Austin and surrounding areas for landscape workers, offering $15/hour. He received 15 responses. He mailed letters to each of them, proposing to arrange interviews. He received no response from five, and his letters were returned, marked "not at this address" for the other ten.
On the other hand, I see signs on fast food businesses offering only a little over $10/hour. I assume these positions get filled by local hires, since the shops stay in business.
In Texas, to receive unemployment compensation, you must show evidence of looking for work. I remarked that in the early 1960s I had run some service stations in San Antonio as part of handling my father's business affairs while he was ill. I advertised to fill vacancies. Every week I had visits from a handful of people claiming to want a job, but clearly displaying some disqualifying characteristic: smelling of alcohol, slovenly dress or poor personal hygiene that appeared intentional, blatant disrespect. Though they showed up for an interview, it seemed clear that they didn't want to work.
The landscaping contractor nodded, saying, "I know what you're talking about." His crews come from Mexico on visas. I believe he said "H2b Non-agricultural." They come to Austin from their home town in Mexico and start work in mid-February, returning home about now in mid-November. They work very quickly and very efficiently. They fill what may a surprising gap in the skill spectrum.
Since the contractor brings the workers in on visas and work permits, I assume he complies with whatever regulations apply on taxes, workmen's compensation, etc.
In south Texas, at least until the 1960s, there was a similar gap in available skills. There are, or at least used to be, a fair number of families who lived in south Texas and did farm work, mainly harvesting crops. But they moved north to the upper midwest to work during the harvest seasons, and returned home during the off season, remaining at leisure. They worked mainly in fruits and vegetables. The wages were higher, and the weather was more tolerable for outdoor work up north.
In those days perishable fruits and vegetables sold in a relatively localized market, while imperishable cotton was traded worldwide. The price of cotton on the world market made it financially impossible to pay the wages to cotton workers that the northern agricultural businesses did to the people who migrated north from Texas.
But as I said, the cotton picking machine made it possible to harvest the crop with only a few regular employees. No doubt the machines are largely made by robots these days.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 12 2016 23:22:38
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
While his reaction would fall into the "racism" category, I do think it is crucial to make the difference between what is ill-intended and what is just fear of "the unknown" (which can be cured just by a little bit of interaction with whatever it is you're afraid of). That kid wouldn't have hurt a fly, no matter race that fly happened to be, but he was just afraid of something he had never encountered.
Exactly, but here's the raw deal, white politicians and preachers exploit that fear of the unknown and transform it into their own power by making it a bigger deal and emphasizing how perilous the white situation is. Which is totally false. This becomes racist or sexist when it plays out in displays of public opinion. Then when they get called on it by opponents they say "what part of this is racist or sexist?" and their followers are outraged that the powerful hero is reprimanded. The same thing happens on both sides of the aisle, and even the left side has its own racist tenet, but it is under a kind of protection for the greater good false reasoning. or because some white liberals are sexist and racist for the same reasons that conservatives are lulled into it. They live in predominantly white 'Burb areas and don't have interactions with people of color where the density of population makes the white person a minority.
Old white proverb: How is that racist?
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The interesting thing about The Donald Vs. Obama is that many whites were self satisfied that we had entered a Post Racial America period, clearly that is not true at all. Ironically the The Donald will probably invoke a more honest national discourse on race relations going forward. The sad part is goodly section of the public is not listening in, and they are the ones who need to hear it louder more clearly. People of color generally speaking knew the Obama legacy was great, but not totally honest in terms of white people really understanding, now they are a grandmother with her arms crossed saying "EmHEmm, what did I tell you? "
One thing I'm kind of happy about, is that the Republican mean machine will not have Bill and Hill to kick around any more! They will have to find a new scapegoat to attack and lie about. Who will it be?
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Richard,
My Fort Worth born maternal grandmother of Russian Jewish heritage, she was first generation, traveled around Texas in the 1920's and 30's with her large family doing pick up farm work, mostly picking cotton. The fields were equipped with some machines that were just stoop over, pick and put it in a bag. Being dirt poor and having had the tip of her pinky finger cut off by a cotton machine when she was nine, she was never destined to be a concert pianist. Poor little girl.
She may have worked for your family! So thanks for creating jobs. Her family and her brothers were proud to work with their hands, although they did not like it. Several of her brothers were killed in WWII and the ones who came back became carpenters in CA. The problem with white working class as I and Lenador see it is the same, I don't believe that they are as stuck as they say they are. The landscape contractor you mentioned outlines the problem that, many whites think that the American Dream is a right, it's not- moreover they see them selves as entitled to certain grades of work that bestows dignity on them and set them apart. I have to to tell you I personally have washed dishes in the kitchen with the Mexican workers and made the same pay.
Anyone can get a job if they want one. I had a high school social studies teacher who was self described as of "Shanty Irish" lineage and he was first generation as my Nana was. Social studies was always my best subject, teachers would send notes home with me all through out my schooling that told my parents I had a knack for history and social issues and that was the only way they cold otherwise keep me from driving them bonkers. I diverge, back to the teacher. He stressed a lot of history with personal anecdote about his family journey from Ireland to America, I found it fascinating.
This was at the same tie my grandfather and uncle told me odd and bigoted jokes and witticisms, like. He would say a shovel is "an Irish walking stick" because so many Irish immigrants would do day labor jobs that were as fun and mind numbing as ditch digging. His family name was Stokes and he in fact was Irish. And a hard worker, an excellent carpenter who became a successful and well respected commercial contractor. If not for him making good money my early life which was very poor, would have been very very poor. he gave my mom some money when she needed it, but circumstances were complex and he could not fully support her. I eventually was sent to live with him when I was 14. That was when my uber bigoted uncles were steeped in the 1970's trend of telling "Pollock Jokes and Wap Jokes" What sound do Italian tires make? - Dago wap wap wap wap- *facepalm* Gee thank you Uncle Bob now if you will excuse me I will retire to my room to listen to Stravinsky on my kid stereo.
My grandfather was very patient, so patient he tried to teach me algebra, which was difficult for me, but was he a good at higher mathematics. The shanty Irish social studies teacher was engaging and he tried to construct a a narrative about his own story a sa direct way to teach kids to read historical events. He was big on the Great Depression, which far far eclipsed the global recession of 2010-ish in severity on the quality of life. My grandmother worked in the dirt as a child laborer who was gravely injured and scarred by it for the rest of her life. My Shanty Irish history teacher explained the causality of why the Depression came to be. He connected to the Irish potato famine and how immigration works and the historical events that trigger it. He said you can forget how hard the new arrival has to work, you have to remember this.
My high school English teacher was a piece of work, his suits stank of chain smoking, he has dark circles around his eyes, he was short and Italian from NY he was totally a New Yorker fresh off the bus and he lived this NY aire in California, I liked him a lot even he would get up in your face to talk to you. His sense of personal space was East Coast when on the West Coast you give people more room. he never recalibrated his spacial proclivities to California norms. He had a mouthful of dark green black and yellow teeth. In a way it was glorious and to my mind the holy grail of challenges for a dental hygienist who was out to prove their mettle. he cornered me one morning as I was walking my cello to the band room. My cello had four legs and I kept it on a leash on campus. So I was allowing my cello to take dump on the grass outside the band room and he saunters up in his tweed jacket smelling like a pile of burnt milk cartons and get up in my grill New York style and stats taking to me about 'I Robot' by Robert Heinlin. He's a total nerd and describes how the book sent him to tears by the end and he is passionate about this. He says "Sci-Fi can be great literature too." Then he pivots topics and goes into some vague rant about laziness. He ended it by saying to me, not at me but to me as a witness of his rant, He said " Sometimes you just have to stuff your pride in your pocket and take a job that you think is beneath you."
These guys were real men, realistic men. Fellas that had weathered the Great Depression. It made an enormous impact on my outlook. Now I'm gonna use my language so if your ears and eyes are delicate and tender, don't read what follows. - Press the fast forward tab on your cassette player to get to early November 2016 in my shop. This pansy A$$ writer from back east goes to the central area of the country to do some helicopter reportage. Heeeeeeliocopter journalism is were a writer breezes into an area then are unfamiliar with a goes away to write a story about a town and they might get it and they might not, depending on how hot the landing zone is. A good one was when Joan Didion wrote about San Bernardino, my hometown, as if it were a roadsde attraction you view from Interstate 10 on your way to Palm Springs to play golf and grab a$$ with Bob Hope. SHe came of flike Los Angeles snob who got it half right. The inland valley areas of California are socially and geologically complex with strata of both rock peoples being worthy of years of detailed study. Case in point would be John McPhee who researched CA geology for years and wrote carefully and smartly about how the geology of CA effects the watershed and how that in turn effected the CA developed it's system of flood control infrastructure and what that meant for the social make up of the region. It was well done and took time.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Nov. 12 2016 23:23:51
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Dudnote)
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I'm going to write something really long so hold on and I will edit it after I get it out- I have to edit this later, sorry about typos etc.
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Continued from above-
John McPhee worked mainly for the New Yorker magazine for the brunt of his career and he could be relied upon to make the most astute observations. The pansy writer who choppered into mid America was from New York and had not grown up in the Mid West or Central Eastern part of the country. he hada very well schooled advanced college degreed New York demeanor, he was being interviewed by Terry Gross about a essay or book he wrote about the plight of the white working class. It made me livid to hear the Bullshiet this a44monkey was talking. I yell at the computer when I listen to podcasts while I work. I dressed him down good. "You motherfOOcker, stupid foocking dumd mother fukker" and as I listened I got adder and madder until I had to turn it off and listen to music. Mood was Carmina Burana, but I changed to flamenco.
Why you ask did he make me so godammned mad? Lemme tell you. My step father was from Holland, he fought in WWII when he was 16, lied about his age and went to the lines near his home in Heerlen, German occupied at the time. Across the border was Achen, he did not want to kill Germans but he did and was happy when they went bad to Achen. He said cleaning up the forest around town was hard for both sides and that dead mens bodes were found alone in the woods for several years after the war was over. By that time he had shipped out to Indonesia with the Royal Dutch Marines to fight in yet another war. He was shot in the stomach and for the rest of his life had to eat carefully, mild foods. My mom made special plates for him while for me she made scorching hot tacos because we grew up eating Mexican food, because that is how many white kids are nourished in California, that's part of our culture. Mind you we eat central Mexico food not that Bawdlerized stuff they call Mexican food down in Tejas. Take that San Antonio!
My step dad returned to Holland from Indonesia with a gut wound and became a profession futball player. - Soccer or futball, I can never figure out which the right way to call it for Europeans. - And he went to college to learn electrical engineering. Later when we came to know him he told us funny stories about the war. my favorite was called 'The Dick Parade', in Dutch it's something like Lulla Parada. The parade happened when the marine doctor in Indonesia lined up all the troops ans the had to flop their willies out so he could inspect them to see is they showed signs of VD. This amuses me because of the rock band Cheap Trick's song "Surrender" has a line.." Just the other day I heard of a soldiers falling off, some Indonesian junk that's going round.. mommies all right, daddies alright..."
When I hear that Cheap Trick song think also of him getting smacked by a friction hot twisting bullet in the torso and bending over double in pain holding a handful of blood. I also pick Surrender as my designated karaoke song I can nail when I'm super intoxicated. Funny how the mind works.
Johnny Jannsen was a great soccer coach in the 1980'a when he took an AYSO soccer team under his expert care. American Youth Soccer League. And when his was not coaching he had this very eccentric hobby of building 1/4 scale Dutch windmills and setting them in the yard. Every house he and my mom moved to was granted this insane monument for reasons I can only surmise as a expression of loss and pangs of missing the big sky and flat greens of Holland. He also planted the requisite Tulips, and made meticulously fabricated cribs as gifts for family friends and he made elaborate wooden toys to give to kids. He eventually retired from his jobs as an engineer and made toys to sell for extra money. he was extremely resourceful and at one time in the 1960's ran a hobby shop where he sold wood model airplane kits. When he married my mom I had been farmed out to relatives, but things got better and I went to spend a lot of time with the Dutchman. It was who once declared, bumper sticker are for tacky Americans. Until my sister found a bumper sticker that said 'If ti ain't Dutch, it ain't much.' That went right onto the back of his red Pontiac. Welcome to America!
The Dutchman worked as a refrigeration and plant engineer for Wendy's hamburger chain and then for Carls Jr..He drove a van all over Southern California in freeway traffic to fix refers in fast food stores. Before that he worked as the plant engineer for Bourns Aerospace in Riverside CA. He ran the F-ing show.
From a44hole to appetite. He was the boss, he commanded and directed everything that had to do with the physical plant of a company with 3000 employees in a complex of buildings. Air conditioning is critical to the fabrication of avionics and to the workers. He had it down. If he could have he would have build a dammed working Dutch windmill on the roof of the main building. Bourns made parts for the B-1 bomber. He left Bourns and applied for a job with the Dutch Phillips company in Holland and for a while it looked like we might move to Amsterdam. Phillips said he was qualified, but too old at that point for the job even though he was bilingual and had experience in America. I think he was 54 or 56. The position was to liaison between US and Holland,but based the Netherlands. The lands I nether got to, but wanted very badly to go to. Dutch girls, my mom said, are very open minded.
Things happened and the Dutchman goto older and it became harder for him to get that plum Bourns job again, he applied for that refer fixing job and drove around in hot van on the 480 freeway in LA and he never complained, not once. he was happy to do it and the people who worked in the franchise locations loved him. For the mangers with building problems he was a godsend genius. I could prattle on about what fukkuing mench he was,but I'll just say here is how it went. He got older and phased out of these jobs because he was too old for the companies. Each time he stuffed his pride in his pocket and took a job of lesser stature for a man of his knowledge. He eventually ended up working at both Lowes and Home Depot, where of course he was the most knowledgeable guy on the sales floor. He ate it up, he loved jibber jabbering with customers and helping them find stuff and teaching them how to fix stuff and make things. He wore a ball cap, left the house with his coffee thermos and he probably had better things to do but he worked. He worked at Lowes until he was well into his 70's. And on the days off he was in his garage with his tools making things to sell. Two foot high Dutch windmills. Or mid sized four foot high windmills. He never ever let me leave a visit without pressing a tool into my hand as a gift. In his accent he would say: "Heer you'rea goona need dis."
The pansy from New York talked about the indignity that Mid westerners are suffering because a guy say who is a tile contractor can't get enough work and loses his business and had go work at Home Depot, and how this is a disgrace. He's depressed and angry. He went on to say these are the guys who feel displaced by immigrants and concocted this meta narrative of why the American worker has fallen behind and feels sorry for himself. Only an idiot with masters degree from an Ivy league college could wrote such bullf-ingshiert. If that had been a call in radio show and I could have gotten on the line I would have soundly reamed this chopper hitching academic moron a new pie hole.
I have about 40 other things to say, but I leave it at a Dutch guy comes to America, is resourceful, has wins and losses. Remembers where he is from goes forward with humility and fortitude and sets an example that native born white working class guys aught to follow to the letter.
I left out long passage about him waking up in the middle of the night screaming because he had some degree of PTSD from being in two back to back wars.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Nov. 13 2016 1:15:25
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
America seems to be inherently racist in many respects.
It is indeed, but probably no more so than any other country with an ethnic and racial mix. To take America first, my wife Marta has a doctorate in Anthropology and has done extensive work with immigrant Hispanics. She also taught university courses from undergraduate up to and including doctoral seminars. She will tell you that many Hispanics are very prejudiced against Blacks. Not all, of course, but the majority she has dealt with are definitely prejudiced. And what about Blacks? Well, consider the major riots in the U.S. over the past 25 or 30 years. The first thing Blacks do during a riot is to trash Korean grocery stores. Blacks themselves rarely establish grocery and other stores. Koreans are very industrious and do so, pooling money with their peers to send their kids to university and beyond, to medical schools, law schools, and other graduate and professional schools. Yet, they are considered interlopers and the "Other" by Blacks and are treated as such, as their stores are trashed and looted.
Whites in America have a long history of racial prejudice, and it continues to exist in many instances. But racial prejudice is not limited to Whites or America. It appears to cross ethnic and racial lines and exists in many other countries. Marta is from Brazil, a country that has a reputation for racial harmony compared to the U.S. and other countries. Yet the superficial racial harmony in Brazil is a result of so many Brazilians of mixed heritage, from straight up African heritage to the many shades of Mulattos, Octoroons, etc. There is a greater mixing of the races in Brazil, but to the discerning eye there appears as much racial prejudice in Brazil as there is in the U.S. An interesting note on Brazil in comparison to the U.S. is the U.S. has always had the "one drop" rule, i.e., if one had one drop of Black blood one was considered Black. In Brazil, one is graded on how light or dark one is, i.e., the lighter the better, and one is treated accordingly. Believe me, it will be a long time before Brazil elects a Black president as we did in the U.S. with Obama.
And if one goes further afield, to East Africa, for example, one sees racial prejudice operating against the "Other." in the late 1970s and into the 1980s, the Blacks in Uganda, Tanzania, and other African countries kicked the East Indians out and took over their property. There are dozens of examples in Asia of racial and ethnic prejudice: The Malays against the Chinese in Malaysia, the Javanese against the Chinese in Indonesia, the Buddhists against the Rohingya Muslims in Burma, the Japanese against the Koreans and their own indigenous Ainu, the Muslim Arabs against Blacks who they enslaved 800 years before the first Black slaves were brought to Europe by the Portuguese, and many more too numerous to mention here. The idea that Whites have a lock on racial, ethnic, and religious prejudice is a convenient myth that has little evidence to support it.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Nov. 13 2016 1:45:13
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
I grew up in San Francisco, the most liberal of cities, but it's not because of the people who were born here. The folks I grew up with are a lot more conservative than the average person who lives here. In fact, many natives are very conservative, perhaps because we have seen first hand what extreme liberalism has done to the city.
Just move to Marin over the GG bridge and problem solved. ICE is busy there scaring the **** out of everyone over there.
CA has a liberal stance on migrant workers because white people won't work the fields. If you want to pay the real price for an apple, which is about 1.80 each, well then deport everyone. The trade off is you have the cheapest food on the planet. And unlike the Japanese who grow and harvest their food by and large without an immigrant labor force, Americans have been inured to migrant and forced labor since the 17th and 18th centuries. There is still slave labor in America.
The immigrant in part makes the San Francisco style of life possible. Every time someone in SF puts a leaf of lettuce in their mouth, well.... I agree the Army Street should never have been renamed Cesar Chavez, I liked Army St. and it kept a sense of history about the city. However what Cesar Chavez did is correct.
I've heard all this stuff before and how Mexicans take jobs, I just don't buy it. While I was in school and before I was full time making guitar I worked as carpenter in the SF area for 24 years, and perhaps there are some soreheads that are white, but in my professional life as carpenter and interfacing with all the other trades and gardeners etc. I'm here to say the narrative of immigrants stealing white jobs is horse manure.
First of all, most of the illegals don't have the connections or the contractors license to do big jobs, or jobs much harder than handyman jobs. The labor force they provide to hard dirt digging, hauling, demolition work etc. makes the total price of a remodel job much cheaper that if all white journeyman level folks did it. For that reason the local economy benefits because more people can afford to conduct remodel work and more skilled workers overall can be employed.
The other thing about SF is the Chinese work force, I worked for two plumbers who complained about Chinese plumbers who do work out in the Avenues and they don't follow code and use plastic parts. SF is one of the last places that requires copper work for plumbing and it keeps skilled trade workers employed because it is a high level skill. One of the SF plumbers union members is an old friend of mine and I studied karate with him for years and years. He was the first Chinese guy to be inducted into the plumbers union. He was always saying damn Chinese plumbers out there in the Richmond using ABS pipe. They took more high skilled jobs away from skilled trades than illegal immigrants.
I got a ton of stories from inside the trade why it's not illegal immigrants taking skilled jobs or unlicensed handyman work for that matter. Those guys standing on the corner are all going get behind a shovel for the day, while some unemployed white guy is going to go to the unemployment dept. and turn in a sheet of paper that said he applied for five jobs that three month term of unemployment and then go out and do under the table work for cash, or sit on his keyster and drink beer.
The other thing that happens is some Mexican kids get really good at carpentry, some are hot shots- here's the deal, get your skills up or get off the job. Some young Mexican guy who is not illegal might have better chops, if you can chalk line off a sheet of plywood and cut it with a skill saw on a dime and then toss it up to the guy on the roof who is nailing off with an air gun, boy you better be able to do it too. The older guys learn to do more refined work and today a lot of rough framing is done by Mexican guys. So the thing is get your skills up as you get older and then move into admin work. Or go get the job at the lumber yard and sell products. My garden design friends say the same thing.
And you know what, sometimes if I needed work I would work for any wage the customer was willing to pay to stay in the game. You have to do the bad jobs for people who do not value your work as much as you have to seek the opportunity to work for the best people who hold you in high regard. Construction work is not easy and just because a guy is white does not mean he has a right to a certain level of pay. If he does not have enough hustle to get in and do what ever it requires, then he has no right to scape goat immigrants. There is enough work for everyone if you go out and get it. I've been there and done it
Before I left CA I was still getting calls to come work for a few customers I kept on as a safety margin because guitar making is risky. They said man am I sorry you are leaving because I don't know how I will replace you, nobody wants to work anymore and you are so good.
So I gave them the number of a guy I know who does bang up work, he returns phone calls, he shows up, he is highly skilled and has and an electricians license. His name is Jose, for real. we worked on many jobs together for a dozen years and traded referrals, I gave all my remaining customers his number.
My vetted customers used to say you are great because you'll make a quick side trip to look at job or give advice or talk through problems over the phone. I made myself important to them, and I could name my price within reason. Illegal immigrants are not taking that skill away from me because I am a native speaker and I put the time in to cultivate long term relationships with clients. Hell I had some clients longer than I had a girlfriend. I also did that tree cutting for $50.00 and not $200.00 to get that money. And that person might have passed my name to a friend who was not a frugal jerk off. Then that guy says to me "Yeah Moe is a dick and he's a cheap dick." and then he says I can't pay the moon but I'll pay more than Tom because I'm not a frugal jerk, but you better do an excellent job.
There's old fashioned saying for doing those crap jobs and building your name. Paying your dues.
I paid them so well that last week I got an email from a referral from a former customer that I kept on my short list. A woman in Oakland wanted me to spruce up a rental unit in East Oakland. People hired me because they could hand me a set of keys and they knew I did not have be babysat and the job would get done. They would only have to go have a quick look before writing me a check. I wrote her back and said thank you very much for contacting me, at this time I'm not available to work and am out of the country. If there comes a time that I return and seek work please let me contact you to let you know I am available. She wrote back and said thank you, I am having a hard time getting responses to my ads and please let me know when you are in the Bay Area.
I've been in Japan for 3.5 years now and every other month I get a work inquiry for carpentry or help with a household matter of construction. I built a good small vetted list of customers for art installation, carpentry and had a skylight fabrication shop that referred me exclusively to install skylights for residential customers in the Berkeley Hills. I could get more work than I needed and they asked me to come work for them, but I said no I am going to make guitars. In retrospect it might not have been a bad idea. The idea that a guy with a reasonable skill set and some humility in the Bay Area can't make in the handyman small remodel niche is a non starter for me. There is so much work I could step off an airliner tomorrow and make two calls and be busy for two months. Customers are looking for quality people.
The first year I was here in Japan I received two or three emails a month for juicy meaty guitar repair jobs. I referred them to Stewart Port or a guy in SF who taught me. I got an email for a restoration job last summer. And folks who used to bring instrument to me still email for advice. Which I give for free.
I was so worried I created two businesses, guitar and carpentry, I thinned out the customers in both places and still they kept on coming. Now as an immigrant I have a hell of a time because the dealers here are not very helpful. They have a different system here and you can't just leave a guitar in a shop on consignment, you have to be invited in as if it were an art gallery. I don't speak like a native, look like one or act like one. I'm here without home court advantage, yet somehow I manage.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 13 2016 6:38:20
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Divisive ignorance (in reply to estebanana)
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Thanks for the story of your step father, the Dutchman, Stephen. He was certainly a man of character and it obviously rubbed off on you.
I could not agree more with your disgust at those who whine about not having a "decent" job but won't get off their butts to do menial work until something better comes along. And that cuts across the board, Whites, Blacks, Iraqi refugees who were professionals in Iraq, you name it. There is a lot of talk in the U.S. about the use of opioids and heroin out of "despair" among the working class. My advice would be to get off the god-damned drugs, quit whining, and straighten yourself out.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Nov. 13 2016 12:05:13
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