What is this technique called and how do I get better at it.

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Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

What is this technique called and ho...

Been taking some lessons on Tientos from Mr. Tanaka to accompany my ladies dance and he's discovered a big weakness in my playing. I can't do the the most basic rasgeuado. Down I up P. It's super useful for baile accompaniment and I suck BADLY at it. I've been practicing 20 mins a day for about a week and a half and this is as fast as I can get. I've been shown this from multiple teachers but no one seems to have a name for it, is there one? Just to let you know this is me at my best playing it. Sad indeed.
What do you recommend for practicing this? Short bursts? Long and steady and work my way up to speed? It's getting frustrating and making me feel really inept. It fits my ladies footwork perfectly and I can't pull it off, 16ths in tientos is my goal.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 2:17:56

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador
Down I up P

Wow! Never heard of it. If I do up down up down stuff I use m or ma, but i?

I guess find a nice long escobilla track and jam along as relaxed as you can for a good long while. I've been jamming quite a lot to the escobilla off the Tangos de Malaga track (see the deezer link) over on the TdM crash course thread - most of it is slow and relaxed, but the acceleratation at the end has been challening. I have noticed after a good number of repeats of that track the rasjeos starts feeling a lot more relaxed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 2:57:58

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Don't know if this helps, but the way I do it is to "press" (no actual pressure, just place them together) p and i together as a sort of pick and then it's all in the wrist. Kind of like if pi was just one really big finger.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 3:29:58

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

I guess find a nice long escobilla track and jam along

That's exactly what I'm doing!! hahaha

quote:

press" (no actual pressure, just place them together) p and i together

I'll try that, right now I do kind of an X shape with them if that makes sense.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 3:48:01

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador
right now I do kind of an X shape with them if that makes sense.

Wow, like a skull n crossbones thing! Up the Irons!!

If I do p-am up down stuff the thumb and m are touching and P almost takes the place of where i would be otherwise - I mean m touches p halfway between tip and knuckle. Not much X shape in there, more of a V.

With ma instead of i I feel I get much more loose wrist action going on - but that might just be because I've done it thousads of times and I'm a P-I newbie.

Did you try switching P-I to P-IM to P-IMA to P-MA and back again all without loosing the groove? Throw in that X shape of yours too - they kinda all sound a little different don't they? Take that X shape to it's extreme & you get more flesh than nail going on so the dynamic range is pretty darn cool isn't it!!!

Back to your question - long steady and relaxed compas track with a short stint of crazy acceleration at the end just to test you out n throw in the odd speed burst or two in between keeping relaxed and chilled - that should have you ripping up that tientos in no time

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 4:13:20

rombsix

Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Dude, you're moving too much. The motion has to be achieved through an economic series of pronation / supination while using the back of the nails of ami (or just i) from basses to trebles, and p from trebles to basses. Same concept as the "Marote" abanico - if you use too much shoulder medial / lateral rotation and/or elbow flexion / extension, then you'll get slower. If you try to limit the movement to only pronation / supination, then you start getting faster.

Stay relaxed and loosen up your brain (yup). That'll get you going quicker...

(raise the volume to hear the audio - it was 7 AM and I didn't want to wake up the neighbors)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 11:14:38

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Hahahaha I love the finger wag!
Thanks Ramz, the video definitely helps. I'll be trying that when I get home and let you know how it goes. Apparently my I've been doing the morote too much finger not enough wrist so I'm having to kind starting it all from scratch.

@Dud, You can create all kinds of textures with this, it's a pretty handy technique if you can get it.

No one got a name for this??

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 13:11:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Well I am surprised a metal guy can't get into this one naturally. Basically you are doing it correct but you have to really push it, don't be shy. Ramzi is correct you can do more fingers and more closed hand than what you did, but he is also doing it very softly and it is supposed to be used to catch ALL 6 strings and very very loudly and aggressively. Think about instead of your little triplet stab to practice "ONE" by Metallica on that E chord....that's 6 tuplets. It makes a nice tientos por Arriba anyway. Alternate it starting down and ending down, and then up ending up.

DUD-UDU-D......UDU-DUD-U....etc.

And bang your head while doing it.

In case you forgot the falseta it's at 4:46
http://youtu.be/W2pa0cYRTkE

Keep in mind those wusses are only hitting one string and you need to hit all 6, and that bass player is super wuss using 3 finger picado.
Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 15:07:38

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

If it hasn't been named yet, I think you should claim it!
The Lenipua.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 16:01:53

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

No one got a name for this??

I think I remember Jason Maguire once calling it 'caveman' rasgeo

But I'd also like to know if it has an 'offical' name.

I find that this rasgeo is essential for baile. It feels very relaxed but still has a lot of power. When practicing I switch between abanico P M I and 'caveman' playing the same llamada phrase e.g. por tangos or solea or solea por bulerias.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 16:28:36

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Well I am surprised a metal guy can't get into this one naturally.

Hahahaha I know!!!! Something about not being able to anchor makes it impossible for me! When I play stuff like One/Whiplash etc my wrist area rests and I don't know why it makes all the difference is the world.....
I copy though, I'll practice One and work my way up to Whiplash lol

@Piwin, isn't that like nicknaming your fat friend Tiny??

quote:

I find that this rasgeo is essential for baile. It feels very relaxed but still has a lot of power. When practicing I switch between abanico P M I and 'caveman' playing the same llamada phrase e.g. por tangos or solea or solea por bulerias.

Yeah is always been one of my favorites to HEAR I don't know why I've neglected it for so long.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 16:33:30

JasonM

Posts: 2052
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Here's a good example at 2:15. From some gintano shedder video ; )

https://youtu.be/i1H4BohhAsk

The technique is simply called tremelo in gypsy jazz guitar circles. Maybe others too. It they can do the same with a pick.

I feel your frustration, I think it takes daily practice until you get up to Ricardo speed. Yet another thing to practice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 16:37:17

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

@Piwin, isn't that like nicknaming your fat friend Tiny??

lol yeah but man it's flamenco. Anything goes. Island Bubba Shrimp, Jimmy Broad Beans, Lil' Ol' Man, Uncle Louie, Joe "Trick" O'Malley, Big Quake, Ricky the Kid, Mani the Snail, Bill One Spot O'Brien, Mat Corral Girl Jones, Tommy the Midget from Malaga, Donny the Lobster etc. etc. and a few hundred José/Jorge/Paco El pirata (At this point there's enough of them to man a ship and sail off to the West Indies).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 17:15:49

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Hahahaha how 'bout good ol Dimebag Darrell
I think I'm gunna name it rageo simio

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 18:28:18

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Isn't it just called strumming. Is there not a Spanish word for that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 21:35:16

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Hahaha so simple it's beautiful!!

The problem is when you get to Spanish, the Spanish word for strumming is rasgueo and because there are 100 types of "strums" in flamenco just translating strum doesn't exactly describe it.....maybe rasgueo básico????

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 21:56:30

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

If tomorrow morning translates to "mañana por la mañana" then this should be "rasgueo por la rasgueo".

But I like Ricardo's name for it, the DUD rasgueo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2016 23:18:37

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

The problem is when you get to Spanish, the Spanish word for strumming is

"estrúmin", surely?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2016 2:34:35

Kiko_Roca

Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Spend a few hours playing along with indigo girls. Land of Canaan on their original release is a good one - GCGCGCGCGCD.

Gotta really drive it though. :)

For technique, I know my wife would always try to bring her thumb up and down to place in position and get out of the way on down strums. But best I can tell I just curl the fingers up a milimeter or two on the up strum. For me as others have said, the motion is in the wrist, and I also do this mostly with ma.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2016 13:14:28

Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Rajeo abarriba?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2016 14:57:42

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

What do you recommend for practicing this?

Lenny,

Four or five years ago when I made a commitment to convert from classical to flamenco. it was tough. Especially with the demands of dancers. I couldn't practice enough, having a day job. So, I had find a way to practice more.

One thing hand techniques (rasqueados, flamenco tremolo, picados, etc.) is to practice them when away from the guitar.

For an example: If I'm stuck in traffic or watching a TV commercial I do drills of tremolo or rasqueados. I find it helps developes muscle strength and speed. Now I find myself practicing without thinking about it.

I'll never be as good as I need to be, but practicing with an "air guitar" helps. Think of it as shadow boxing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2016 16:48:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

I always referred to it as "muñeca" as it's driven by the wrist action. You will eventually notice you can open your hand and do abanicos in higher gear once you get the wrist going. It is akin to doing drum rolls.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2016 19:04:15

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

"estrúmin", surely?

Are ju estrúmin de guetar???

Muñeca, that makes sense, no finger articulation lol

@SephardRick, I used to do that all the time when I started and now I don't. Probably time to get back into that habit.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2016 19:57:40

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

Thanks again Ramz! You're video has helped a lot. I didn't realized my wrist was so far out making my whole hand perpendicular to the guitar. Being more parallel and closed in is helping, I'm not as fast but it feels more controlled, like I'll get farther quicker.
Three cheers for Doctor Flamenco!

PS I had to ask my Occupational Therapist girlfriend what all that jargon you used was. hahaha

Now that I think of it, that explains why I can palm mute slayer riffs at 1,000 mph and couldn't do this, my whole hand is parallel when I do that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2016 1:37:17

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

I recently switched from using formaldehyde enriched nail varnishes to Super Glue. On the whole it's been a good change - dries faster and harder. But practicing patterns with this technique I'm having to patch up chipped lost glue patches every 10 minutes or so. Is it normal? How do you guys working a lot with dancers get through classes / gigs without constant regluing?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2016 4:11:51

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Leñador)

One of my old teachers calls that the "masturbation rageo" and says when he learned it he went through several boxes of tissue.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2016 6:44:55

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Dudnote)

Are you using only superglue? If so you can try adding some acrylic powder. I usually do "2" layers, which for me means 1 powder, 1 superglue, 1 powder, 1 superglue and 1 more powder to finish off. Works really well for me.
If you want to go full gitano, you can replace the layer of acrylic powder with a layer of toilet paper or, if you're really hardcore, the cardboard from a cigarette pack. 1 layer superglue, 1 layer toilet paper/cigarette pack, 1 layer superglue. Preferably clean toilet paper. Ahem.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2016 6:58:03

Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

But practicing patterns with this technique I'm having to patch up chipped lost glue patches

To me this stops from happening after applying a certain amount of layers of glue. So i think it might be because you use too little.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2016 8:45:45

julianev

Posts: 78
Joined: Apr. 13 2015

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Dudnote)

You need something fibrous to bind the super glue and stop it from chipping (i.e. to give it lateral strength). I use either a couple of layers of tissue paper or a piece of kitchen roll. Just make sure you check for patterns first, otherwise it can end up looking like some grim fungal infection is taking hold under your nail

I find doing this lasts maybe a week or so before the natural oils on the nail loosen the adhesion. Unless I have completely shattered the nail, I then try to give it a breather between applications.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2016 9:55:30

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: What is this technique called an... (in reply to Piwin)

Thanks guys. Yesrs ago I was using thin Rizzla cigarette paper, but found it would ping off at unexpected moments. Think I'll try the acrylic power. Let's see if I can post a review before Lenny posts a review on Marmite.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2016 11:16:03