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Pegs
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peter18337
Posts: 4
Joined: Jun. 8 2016
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 Pegs
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I'm new around here and since there are a lot of luthiers on this site, I'd like to throw out a question for general speculation regarding pegs. I'm very partial to pegs. In fact the three guitars that I currently own, two Ramirez and one Conde, they all have pegs and, frankly, I wouldn't own one without pegs. But the thing that interests me is that, given how meticulously, how carefully, and how beautifully these guitars are made with such attention to detail, how crumby the pegs are. Now I can't speak about ALL guitars with pegs but an awful lot that I've come across have poor quality pegs. What happened to those luthiers standards for quality and aesthetics when it came to the pegs? Are they not part of the guitar? Are they not out there for everyone to see and of course for the guitarist to operate? ( I'm not including the new "mechanical" pegs---they're in a different category).
When I first brought my Conde back from Spain, the pegs were so ugly, so ill-fitting, so poorly made, that I couldn't stand it. So I went to a violin maker in New York (where I was then living at the time) and asked him to retrofit my pegs with his which were magnificent. Well, after looking down his nose at me and especially the guitar (after all, he was a violin maker) he reluctantly agreed to do it. The pegs he used were from Germany and they were absolutely gorgeous: slightly longer, beautifully finished ebony with a very comfortable grip with a nicely finished mother of pearl dot in the center of the grip set into a tiny brass ring. The luster and shine of the wood was perfect. I couldn't be happier and I thought , 'Why aren't the guitar makers doing this?'
So there in is my question----Why aren't the guitar makers doing this?
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Date Jun. 19 2016 21:30:15
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Pegs (in reply to jshelton5040)
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During the late 1960s and the 1970s I bought around a dozen Ramirez 1a classicals from Jose III at his shop in Madrid at various times and sold them in the USA at a considerable profit, while still undercutting the U.S. dealers. Jose III usually had a half dozen 1a's to choose from in the shop. I picked out ones that I liked. I don't remember any real dogs. Ones I didn't particularly like might have been the choice of better players than I.
The '67 cedar/cypress blanca that my wife gave me when it was new was my favorite flamenca for some years, despite the pegs. During that time a friend had a '73 Conde spruce/cypress media luna. It was dead as a doornail when it was new, with all the tone quality of a yellow pine plank, but after two or three years I liked it as well as the Ramirez. I never convinced him to sell it to me.
Since those days I have played a few flamencas I like better than the Ramirez. Some, like the '82 Arcangel Fernandez, I definitely prefer. But when I get out the '67 Ramirez, after getting used to it for 15 or 20 minutes, I always think, "This is, in fact, a very nice guitar."
RNJ
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Date Jun. 20 2016 23:39:07
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Pegs (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
IMHO Ramirez made their best guitars before '65. At least they were more consistent and the makers were people of the stature of Bernabe, Contreras, Manzanero, Martinez etc.
My '67 Ramirez blanca has the initials A.M. (Antonio Martinez) on the heel of the neck. Some dealers have told me this makes it more valuable. Others have said it makes no difference, but the opinion of "more value" seems to have grown in prevalence over the last couple of decades.
My experience trying quite a few classical 1a's at the Madrid shop during the late 1960s through 1970s was that there was about as much variation within the production of one maker (including Martinez, Tezanos, etc.) as there was across the whole range of makers. However, guitar preferences notoriously vary from one player to the next. I never heard of the preference for some makers until the late 1970s, early 1980s, but Austin was a relatively isolated guitar scene in those days.
RNJ
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Date Jun. 22 2016 21:19:50
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Pegs (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
In the case of Ramirez III, I think the early guitars were lighter, just spruce topped and produced in a small number and with great care.
In the '60 many pro were using Ramirez. As a matter of fact the pre-cedar Ramirez are quite sought after today and for a good reason IMHO.
Later on Ramirez, being successful with classical guitars, never developed their flamenco guitar model following Conde.
Richard Brune notes the influence of Marcelo Barbero (padre) on Ramirez III's blanca design. http://www.rebrune.com/jose-ramirez-iii-1960/ In his book Jose III attributes the static design of his flamenco instruments to the extreme conservatism of flamenco players, who resisted any design changes--according to Ramirez.
quote:
Somehow some of those Madrid makers were a little despising the local flamenco crowd. I never saw anyone I suspected of being Gitano, nor heard anyone play flamenco (other than myself) in the shops of Ramirez, Manzanero, Bernabe or Contreras, though all of them made flamenco guitars. On the other hand, at Conde Hermanos the predominant genre was flamenco. This contrasts with the accounts of the leading guitarists of both genres hanging out at Manuel Ramirez's shop, to which some of the classical influence upon flamenco in the 1920s has been attributed.
quote:
Not a mistery that the same Arcangel refused to make again flamenco guitars for decades...
I'm sure you know that for many years all of Arcangel's output was contracted to a Japanese dealer. Presumably Arcangel's production was driven by the demand of the Japanese market. My 1982 Arcangel blanca, though labeled, signed by Arcangel on the underside of the top and autheticated by Brune, has no serial number. According to Brian Cohen it was built for a non-Japanese collector, thus the lack of serial number. According to Brune a few others exist, made for non-Japanese collectors or players whom Arcangel particularly favored.
RNJ
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Date Jun. 23 2016 19:09:24
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. Futher still, these so called mechanical pegs I have come across also suck pretty bad. Can't fine tune with any of em. I admit they all look very cool, but for me it's machines. 
