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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2016 21:37:53

Grisha

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2016 21:58:35

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

I would say flamenco has made much larger leaps in terms of rhythm and dynamics than it has in harmony. It's learns the art of subtlety as its matured.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2016 22:10:57

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jsncdlng

Hi. I've noticed some unhappiness in regard to the amount of off topic chatter on the forum and wanted to pose a question regarding what I have read as a sophistication of flamenco guitar music since ( some say seventies, 60's, 80's). My own narrow view sees this perceived sophistication stemming from a trend toward western harmony and jazzy influence - most notably driven I presume by PDL. Is there anything else anybody could add to the idea of sophistication? I am personally of the mind this particular branch was a wrong turn and further digging into eastern music would have been a better direction for flamenco to have evolved. How has technique been sophisticated in the past 30 - 40 years. Please discuss I am quite interested :)

It's typical to speak of jazz and harmony and a general negative attitude about it, but the truth is it evolved more internally via the compas (rhythm). By that I mean a specific example of modern flamenco might be completely devoid of anything new harmonically nor contain a shred of "jazz" (what people think that is anyway), yet it can sound super sophisticated because of the rhythm and dynamics involved. Again, the sophistication IMO is almost 100% about the rhythm, but most folks with the negative mind set can't keep compas to save their life anyway so this topic is a sort of dead horse at this point. You can search the archives and read about "modern flamenco" or "jazz in flamenco" etc etc.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2016 22:46:27

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2016 23:20:57

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2016 23:26:21

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

Pretty sure Ricardo is referring to the same thing I am. Compass is still compass but people's ability to play with it has sophisticated. Older flamenco beat you over the head with compass a little more than today. ( no dis to older flamenco you should see my record collection)
For a great example I'd say check out Diego del Morao.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2016 23:44:48

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 1:21:51

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

On this forum we have seen a lot of posts about things that changed drastically in the 60th - 70th. And that there is a before and an after that period.

I think that is wrong and basically used to say that something before was better than somnething now. At least thats what we have had to read on this forum a lot of times. If you study the devellopment of flamenco. (I did so +10 years ago in musicology on the univerersity of Granada) You will see that flamenco is one big bag of musical styles mixed together and that it has changed all the time.

Some like very much the myth of flamenco being based on eastern music. There is some influence there, but basic or old-school flamenco is based a LOT more on spanish folklore especially when it comes to melody and harmonics.
The problem with this is that a lot of people cannot accept that flamenco has its roots in folklore. It makes it "low" for them and not sufficiently sophisticated to be accepted in "higher" music levels.
Flamenco is alive and develloping like all other music styles. It can be discussed wheather its going through a healthy period or not. But I´m not going to go into that. In the end, music is what the people playing it does with it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 7:05:42

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 8:06:19

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

the use of Phrygian scale to adopt that non- western cadence.

Well, its considered that the Phrygian scale and its cadence is very Spanish. Its sometimes called the Iberian cadence or even Andalucian cadence
It has been discussed a million times by musicologists wheather the arabs influenced the Spanish or wheather the Spanish influenced the arabs without reaching a general consensus and I dont think we will ever know.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 13:37:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jsncdlng

quote:

By that I mean a specific example of modern flamenco might be completely devoid of anything new harmonically nor contain a shred of "jazz" (what people think that is anyway), yet it can sound super sophisticated because of the rhythm and dynamics involved. Again, the sophistication IMO is almost 100% about the rhythm, but most folks with the negative mind set can't keep compas to save their life anyway so this topic is a sort of dead horse at this point. You can search the archives and read about "modern flamenco" or "jazz in flamenco" etc etc.

Ricardo

Could you give me a link to an example like this - sans back up band? Please. I am interested in a sophisticated rhythm contained within the simpler harmonic structure of old and not relying on interplay with other rhythmic sources cheers

By negativity I mean after the self admission of a narrow view point you offer the opinion that flamenco evolution took a "wrong path". That's like saying biological evolution took a wrong turn after the magnificent dinosaur. This topic has made the rounds and it normally gets people frustrated. (Old school foro split was do to this very topic IMO). I can offer you one example though it's pretty much EVERY thing modern with some very few jazz examples here or there when looking at specifics.

Here is very modern flamenco piece, NO BACK UP BAND (another eye roll of the typical negative view of modern flamenco) as per your request, no jazz harmony at all. No new technique since Ramon Montoya day, no new harmony. In fact we have mostly 3 chords here, C#, D and E. There is a brief move to A major and G major chords before returning to the same harmonic place. 100% of the modernity of this music lies in the synchopation and treatment of the compas.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 17:01:12

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 20:44:06

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

And for what it's worth, evolution did take a wrong turn at the dawn of homo sapien - look at the state of the planet since we got here!

It's a funny thing that over 100 years after Darwin, people, including some scientists, still have a hard time shaking the idea that there is a "direction" or an "arrow" to evolution, despite the endless attempts of those knowledgeable in that field to convince otherwise. I don't know of any respected biologists today that believe that evolution goes only from simple to complex, that we are somehow the pinnacle of previous evolutions, or that there is such a thing as a wrong turn in evolutionary terms. Evolution is just about adaptation to circumstances, nothing more. No good, no bad, no better, nor worse. If you want to make a parallel with something else than music, I'd suggest not doing it with biological evolution, unless you're prepared to think along the lines that no music is better or worse than it used to be, it's just different as it has adapted and the rest is a matter of taste, nothing else. Anyways, this discussion IMHO is not general at all, should be in the off-topic section, so perhaps come back with those same ideas when the off-topic section is up and running again? It's an interesting discussion, it's just not one that will be able to stay on topic for very long.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 21:17:38

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

I wouldn't call these chords jazzy but you'd never hear syncopation done quite like this 50 years ago.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 21:31:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

Evolution is just about adaptation to circumstances, nothing more. No good, no bad, no better, nor worse.

Exactly the same deal with the evolution of flamenco music. That's why I made the analogy. As to the post above yours...some folks can not take a moment to listen to something after making a direct request for it...well I guess not much point to continue this course. And Leñador, guess you missed the part where it was requested NO BAND (cajon drum). So you wasted as much time as me I guess.

Cheers!
Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 21:35:35

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 22:46:11

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jsncdlng
what is really at the heart of modern flamenco is dilution of soul. I don't see why there should be a division between old school and new school.

Hell of a contradiction there chum.

I don't know. I've not been hanging out here half as long as others have, but your argument just looks like Groundhog Day to me.

Why not upload some of your playing or singing instead of telling many of the highly talented guys that use this forum that they have no soul.

@Ricardo - thanks for upload, hadn't heard that version before.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2016 23:36:57

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 0:26:15

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)

Just returned from the Peña: Agujetas hijo and Manolo Jero. Sensational. Flamenco is not sofisticated in musical terms, though the guitar may be. Flamenco continues to be cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 0:27:43

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

Daaaaaaammmmmnnnnn!
Super jealous! Agujetas hijo is my favorite right now. Dudnote turned me on to that album from jail he has. KILLER GOOD!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 0:44:37

Dudnote

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Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)

Glad you liked it Lenny.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 0:58:12

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 1:04:04

yourwhathurts69

Posts: 117
Joined: Sep. 16 2009

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

There is a Russian fella on you tube. Plays the most amazing old schools flamenco I've ever seen

Are you referring to Grisha, the first guy to reply to your original post?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 1:32:28

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

I wouldn't call these chords jazzy but you'd never hear syncopation done quite like this 50 years ago.

Man that was awesome - thanks for posting.

I think post-paco or 'modern' flamenco solo/ish players might experiment more with upper-extensions (9 11 13 etc) and sound a little more 'out' than in the past for example the intro chords.
Anyway maybe that's what some people mean by 'jazzy'?

From Dudnote's video it seems as if the 'trad' spirit is being kept alive - that guitar player's a monster.

So the singer is the new Agujetas? What's this about an album from jail??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 5:36:32

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

Ole eso!
https://youtu.be/iEsErsjoZ9o

In English iTunes it's called two cries for freedom. It's Jose Serrano and Agujetas Hilo evidently recorded from jail. Great stuff

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 5:48:58

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)

In my oppinion there is a thruth in your words.
I always wonder after listening for 30 years intensively to flamenco, why i still like and prefer the "boring" no band, no cajon, no bass
Flamenco Solo guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 7:50:21

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Exactly the same deal with the evolution of flamenco music. That's why I made the analogy

Yeah no worries, I got your analogy. I was a bit more skeptical about the OP's implied use of it and his reply to your post. I also have my own preferences in flamenco and they do tend to come from a certain period of time. I just wouldn't dream of saying that what I like and what happens to work for me is in any way better than the rest, which is what the OP seemed to be doing to a certain extent.
Anyways, back to the grind.
cheers,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 8:12:05

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 10:28:18

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

I always wonder after listening for 30 years intensively to flamenco, why i still like and prefer the "boring" no band, no cajon, no bass Flamenco Solo guitar.

At the risk of repeating an opinion I have expressed many times on the Foro, I couldn't agree more with you Gerundino63. I have been listening to flamenco for 55 years, beginning when I was 17 years old with Carlos Montoya and Sabicas. I much prefer listening to solo flamenco guitar as it was performed in those days. The exquisite purity of the guitar comes through to me in a way that is muddled when additional instruments are added.

I want to make clear that I am not suggesting that flamenco took a "wrong" evolutionary turn with a modern "band" approach and additional instruments. It has evolved to a point that appeals to most aficionados. But not for me. To me, the cajon is a minor infraction, but Paco de Lucia's addition of a bass guitar and a harmonica was an abomination in my opinion. I saw him the last couple of times he performed in the Washington, DC area. Frankly, I enjoyed listening to the harmonica more than I did his guitar. It was interesting music, but the purity of the guitar was lost in the muddle. To make clear once again, that is only my opinion; I am not stating it as a categorical truth.

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2016 13:42:08