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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to chester)
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ORIGINAL: chester Who's JM?
I guess he means Juan Martin. It's funny, about a year or two before I started studying flamenco I did see a JM show in a small 16th century wooden theatre.I was with a girl who I married one year later, it was her first trip to England. We sat in the stalls and the show opened with 2 cantaors - one a gitano singing traditional flamenco style, the other a man of Arabic origin singing in accordance with his roots - just some meters either side of us. That was my first flamenco show and we knew nothing, zero, about flamenco back then, but the impact of those exchanges between those singers either side of us was very memorable and we enjoyed what we interpreted as a fusion. There was at least 1 drummer (perhaps 3) with an Indian or Arabic finger drum. I don't recall if the dance was mixing styles, but Juan signalled to his two singers and made a reference to the two historical influences, gypsy & Arabic, on cante. We thouroughly enjoyed the show.
I wonder now, 16 flamenco years later, if I would enjoy that show more or less now than I did back then??
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
Flamenco guitar may be evolving in different directions but the process is still immature. That immaturity shows in the commonly expressed view that to be at the higher level or more advanced you have to embrace a modern style rather than what is disparagingly called ‘old-school flamenco’. It’s time for the afición (I’m mainly referring to the world outside Spain) to grow up and allow that people are no less or more musically aware if they prefer the music of one era to that of a different one. It’s not more advanced or more sophisticated to prefer Clapton or Bonamassa to Robert Johnson, or more backward to prefer Ockeghem or Bach to Boulez or Penderecki– just personal affinity and taste. Some people have a wide range of knowledge and taste, others more limited and narrow. All are equally valid.
I only once saw Paco de Lucía live with his group. I found it disappointing after the earlier experience of being overwhelmed by his solo records and collaborations with Camarón. That PdL concert had the atmosphere of a pop festival with a young, very enthusiastic audience, but almost none of the extraordinary emotional intensity I’d experienced when, say, seeing Carmen Amaya’s company or at La Zambra in Madrid or a bautizo in Jerez. But that’s just me.
I think over-amplified guitar and voice destroy the subtle nuances of guitar and cante. But others love the electrified sound, recognizing it as more akin to the presentation of pop music.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to payaso)
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That immaturity shows in the commonly expressed view that to be at the higher level or more advanced you have to embrace a modern style rather than what is disparagingly called ‘old-school flamenco’.
I agree with you 100% but I find it curious you only mentioned this particular point of view and not its reverse. I have no idea what it's like outside Spain, but here in Spain, in my own experience, the shunning of "modern" flamenco by "traditionalists" is much much more common than people disparaging "old-school" flamenco. I've never heard anyone take the moral highground saying that modern flamenco is more advanced etc. etc. What I have heard is disgust at any attempt to try something new. And I should state at this point, lest you accuse me of being biased here, that my own personal preference lies with Sabicas more so than with what came after. I guess we have had different experiences with this kind of thing.
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
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I am personally of the mind this particular branch was a wrong turn
Living things evolve.
Thankfully flamenco is alive. If it was just a matter of endlessly repeating what happened in some imagined golden age it would be dead.
Evolution involves new directions, some of which fall by the wayside and others survive. Nobody controls how things develop, there are no rules. It is probably not helpful to use phrases such as "a wrong turn".
Solo flamenco guitar is a relatively new phenomenon – not much more than 80 years old. You can appreciate it without reference to any of the others parts of flamenco but you might be missing out on a much richer experience.
There is always grumbling and resistance to change but people sometimes get over it. Poor old Juanito Valderrama with his unusual (in modern terms) light lyrical voice was ostracised by the flamenco community for commercialisation – appearing in popular films like El Emigrante and selling millions of records. Eventually he was rehabilitated and there is now a tribute “homenaje” recording with Manolo García, José Mercé, Silvia Pérez Cruz, Martirio, Estrella Morente, Pasión Vega, Diana Navarro, Arcángel, Miguel Poveda, Ana Belén y Víctor Manuel and others. Some of his contempories were never forgiven!
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Piwin)
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my own personal preference lies with Sabicas more so than with what came after.
Hear, hear! As I've stated often enough on the Foro, my all-time favorite was, and is, Sabicas. More so than Paco de Lucia, Tomatito, Vicente Amigo, and a host of others. That's not to say I don't enjoy listening to those who followed Sabicas; I do. But to my mind Sabicas is the gold standard of flamenco guitar.
Bill
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to RobJe)
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Manolo García, José Mercé, Silvia Pérez Cruz, Martirio, Estrella Morente, Pasión Vega, Diana Navarro, Arcángel, Miguel Poveda, Ana Belén y Víctor Manuel and others.
A strange tribute from many lesser flamencos and non flamencos Juan knew how to sing all the palos of flamenco and deserves better.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
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That immaturity shows in the commonly expressed view that to be at the higher level or more advanced you have to embrace a modern style rather than what is disparagingly called ‘old-school flamenco’.
I personally have never met in person or seen anyone on the foro that appreciates modern flamenco and speaks disparagingly about traditional stuff....???? Who are these people???? I have however met and seen MANY people who disparage the modern........
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From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Piwin)
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ORIGINAL: Piwin And I should state at this point, lest you accuse me of being biased here, that my own personal preference lies with Sabicas more so than with what came after. I guess we have had different experiences with this kind of thing.
During the first half of 1962 I frequented the club Zambra in New York City. Fairly often Sabicas would show up and participate in the after-hours juerga. One evening I conveyed my enthusiasm to a random Spaniard when Sabicas came in the door with his entourage. The Spaniard expressed disgust and said he would rather listen to Fernando Sirvent, the house guitarist, than to Sabicas with all his elaborate show-off modernisms.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
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The Spaniard expressed disgust and said he would rather listen to Fernando Sirvent, the house guitarist, than to Sabicas with all his elaborate show-off modernisms.
Sounds like it's all relative. Good story Richard.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to BarkellWH)
@BarkellWH
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Hear, hear! As I've stated often enough on the Foro, my all-time favorite was, and is, Sabicas
Cheers to that! One of my greatest regrets is of never having seen him perform live. Sadly I got into flamenco after his time. Did you ever get to see him perform back in the day?
@Richard Jernigan What I wouldn't give now to have been a fly on the wall in one of those after-hour juergas! Perhaps one way to get off the spinning wheel of tradition-modernism is to do as Carlyle suggested (paraphrasing): to consider originality not in terms of novelty, rather in terms of sincerity. And when I listen to Sabicas, I hear a voice that is powerfully sincere. It's perhaps not a very profound or reasoned explanation of why I like Sabicas so much, but that's all I got!
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Morante)
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ORIGINAL: Morante
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Manolo García, José Mercé, Silvia Pérez Cruz, Martirio, Estrella Morente, Pasión Vega, Diana Navarro, Arcángel, Miguel Poveda, Ana Belén y Víctor Manuel and others.
A strange tribute from many lesser flamencos and non flamencos Juan knew how to sing all the palos of flamenco and deserves better.
Exactly. Don't know why I keep getting sucked into these discussions online. Once again, there is a time and place to talk smack and make your laundry list of all the stuff you can't tolerate and lament the good ol days are gone. The simple fact is this: Nobody that actually knows about singing would put down valderrama...there was not "rehabilitation" of his value as a cantaor it was and is always understood by those that freaking get it. Same deal with Marchena and others.
Another fact is nobody that can play at high level flamenco guitar would talk about PDL as many do that can't get over an electric bass. It's ridiculous frankly. And finally, modern flamenco guitar is simply more advanced music, end of story. There might be equally or more difficult things of the very old trad repertoire that are physically challenging for anyone, but the modern flamenco guitar has evolved to a higher more sophisticated level, period, end of story. From there we can keep generalizing pointlessly about what we like or don't like, or we can get into specifics. 12 years ago I was defending that Trafalgar was even "flamenco" at all instead of PURE JAZZ, and here are some people saying there is not much to it that screams "modern".
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Piwin)
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ORIGINAL: Piwin
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If you want to have an open minded discussion about what is going on it has to go there.
So, in the case of Trafalgar (first time I asked my teacher to walk me through that piece, I asked for Gibraltar by Gerardo Nunez. He wasn't happy. at all. ), what is going on that makes it "modern"? If it's syncopation, the main melody doesn't seem any more syncopated than more traditional pieces (except maybe a few passages). The arpeggios that accompany the melody are more complex and more syncopated though than more traditional stuff IMO so maybe that's part of it? Or is it the drop-D tuning (and different key) that isn't common with bulerias that makes people think of it as a modern piece? Or all/none of the above?
Specifics are good because we can do away with labels and generalizations. First point...the melody IS all arpeggio and is VERY syncopated. The opening theme sets up a soniquete with a special right hand formula on the D chord, such that the accents play against the time in a nice way that allows half compas to pass unnoticed. The first chord change he hits strongly leading the 12 accent (meaning it comes between 11 and 12 or between 5 and 6 in the half compas, and it changes if you try to count only in 12). That chord is basically a Cminor over D bass, then an F#dim7th descending pattern gets back on beat. So basically the melody is all over the map compas wise. It is only because he is so precise and the timing space is filled up by arpeggio that it seems like a simple rhythm. You sit down with palmas and try that opening theme and soon confront with a very big challenge to drive compas and not lose or rush it and it becomes clear why the cajon or whatever is very nice to have grooving along. As you might go through and try other sections you find more and more very rich rhythmic things going on with the right hand patterns, and it is necessary to work it out perfectly in order to make that (seemingly) simple pretty melody come to life.
Impetu is mentioned and there is a direct quote from this, the baroque sounding section about 1:36. It starts on the Dm 9th and continues a pattern that Escudero used but on different chords. Escudero goes Dm-Gm-C-Bb...Gerardo took the idea through Dm-A7/G-Dm/F-Gm-Dm...etc. So he took a traditional idea and really ran with it and developed it. A lot of modern flamenco ideas are disguised in this way. I only noticed myself after learning both pieces.
The last point about the drop D, and I would add to that the key changes (D phrygian, D major, D minor shifts) are as old as flamenco guitar is. Perhaps not for bulerias, but the tonal practice of it was done in flamenco at least as far back as Ramon Montoya (Guajiras, Rondeña, etc). Parallel key changes are at the heart of what the cante has always done por bulerias anyway.
So what makes this piece "modern" not traditional, we need only look to the rhythmic treatment, the date it was composed, and recognize the little fragments that the music evolved from (impetu predates this clearly). Unfortunately the important distinction, the rhythm, can be just whizzing over people's heads.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Ricardo)
Olé! Thanks for taking the time to post that explanation. I'll admit I hadn't heard the quote to impetu at all... Now that you pointed it out it seems almost obvious (though like you said, he ran with it pretty far!). I'll be giving it a closer listen. Cheers,
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Typical attitude...to shun the metronome. The old players understood it perfectly well. Palmas are the metronome. As music gets more syncopated the solid tempo beat is required to have a concept of soniquete. It's not about any struggle artistically with restraints of rhythm. The music has evolved to a point that to hear the reference against the sophisticated melody is a beautiful way to express soniquete (swing and groove) that a meandering, wavering pulse destroys. The whole point is to take music higher and higher on that level.
"Jazz chords" or extensions of 9 11 13 are already present in the old toques for the most part. Treatment or use of the traditional structures is what has changed. If you want to not like or understand what is going on at the higher level, then your opinion, tastes and preferences will stay with what you can wrap your ear around. That is fine, but all the rest of guitar students that wish to advance will need to understand what is happening and confront the issue of compas directly whether they like it or not. If you want to have an open minded discussion about what is going on it has to go there. If you just want to vent that the good ol days of flamenco guitar are gone (as far too many have already done), then that is a different topic.
Anyway, no band, not second guitar, no jazz:
Who that terrible solo player? Like I always say solo playing is so awful, no arte, no singing. God it is so, so, so........Good.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
What constitutes Poppycock? I dated for a Peruvian woman and she said that a lot when we were in bed. I never got it why she used British English sayings.
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
The Spaniard expressed disgust and said he would rather listen to Fernando Sirvent, the house guitarist, than to Sabicas with all his elaborate show-off modernisms.
Ah! Good old Fernando Sirvent! I remember a record of his getting a rave review from Discus (Jack Duarte) in BMG, which dates me as much as you.
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen
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The Spaniard expressed disgust and said he would rather listen to Fernando Sirvent, the house guitarist, than to Sabicas with all his elaborate show-off modernisms.
Ah! Good old Fernando Sirvent! I remember a record of his getting a rave review from Discus (Jack Duarte) in BMG, which dates me as much as you.
Whatever happened to him?
I was only slightly acquainted with Fernando. Actually I knew his sister Amor Sirvent better. She had a gift shop with Spanish items and a flamenco dance school near Dupont Circle in Washington DC. It was near Sophocles Pappas's Guitar Shop, so I would stop by both when I was in DC.
When I first stopped in at Amor's shop, she showed me a guitar she was selling for a friend. It was a blanca, better than the one I had at the time. I played a few soleares falsetas on it. Amor nodded, then started talking about her dance students. "These American girls," she said, "they always say they want to express themselves!. They don't understand that flamenco is rules, rules, rules!"
I was in the U.S. Army, stationed at Aberdeen Proving Ground, not too far north of Baltimore. When I shipped out to Fort Lewis, Washington I lost touch with the New York/Washington flamenco scene, but Juan Serrano was part of the Spanish crew at the Seattle World's Fair, so I could get a little flamenco fix there.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Amor nodded, then started talking about her dance students. "These American girls," she said, "they always say they want to express themselves!. They don't understand that flamenco is rules, rules, rules!"
Good story, RJ...Seems little has changed over the years.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
Fernando Sirvent's album La Zambra is what got me hooked on flamenco many years ago and is still one of my favourites. Perhaps too basic for many on the foro but at least I can identify what palos he is playing and can follow the accents easily. I honestly can not say that about many of the more recent and perhaps more sophisticated recordings by very good players. But that is just my shortcoming.