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RE: Harmonic bars
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
I enjoy handing my favorite flamenca to classical guitarists. The Arcangel Fernandez spruce blanca likes to play flamenco, and nothing else. To most classical guitarists it seems a bit dull at first. But when you use flamenco right hand technique it barks....
That is not unusual among well-made flamencas. Flamenco right hand technique, attack, and lack of sustain all combine to create and play the "flamenco" sound, as opposed to the classical sound anticipated by classical guitarists. And if they attempt to play it as if it were a classical guitar, using classical techniques, it will not render a satisfactory tone and sound for either the flamenco enthusiast or the classical enthusiast. Flamenco guitarists should stick with flamencas and classical guitarists should stick with classicals. I think most do.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 14 2016 17:47:59
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
punchiness in the basses and lower sustain .. a little stiff and tense .. relax the bass register ..more high partials activated .. flamenco color .. spare and reductive .. enhances the overtones .. boxy, dry, punchy kind of sound .. tone.. flamenco sound .. treble sound .. over tone activity .. fire cracker .. not a LOUD instrument.. an instrument with voice .. speak like great actors, not scream .. raw or sweet in its dynamic range .. inter-dimensional voicing.. loudness and sweetness .. big dynamic range .. vowel tone, like a human voice .. big tough guitars .. tubby sounding .. the open tone .. flamenco edge .. amazing .. low "pulsacion" .. soft attack .. responded crisply .. very nice guitars .. kind of his stamp .. sound .. noticable rumble .. bass production .. bold trebles .. string/nail attack noise .. stiffer articulation .. certain tonal aspects and/or sustain value .. stronger trebles .. very traditional sound .. brighter and stronger .. a firm E string .. powerful .. voice .. sustain .. brightness .. attack .. treble strong pattern .. metallic core sound .. low frequency of the box air .. vibrational modes .. overly bright sound when dying .. stronger mid range .. scooped mids .. brightness and deep punch .. power and projection .. poor articulation .. bass string tight and sturdy .. high frequency activity is not ……. Sympathetic .. out of phase .. higher partials are out of whack .. over active extraneous noise .. healthy round strings .. overtone series ……. out of control .. string overtone generation .. power that is projection .. instant gratification under your ear .. sound enormous 20-30 feet away .. not blown up sound .. penetrating sound .. highly focused at long range .. under the ear not "explosive” .. up close living tonal aspect .. vibration of the guitar's integral parts .. projection by its vowel tone in the middle register .. it barks.
Actually, Rob, it looks like a coded encryption that you are using to send a secret message to a counterpart who has the decryption book at his end. You are using the Foro as a conduit to send secret codes to your fellow conspirators, and this is the encrypted code for Saturday, May 14, 2016.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 14 2016 21:17:30
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
(3) Use it as the basis of a flamenco guitar rap.
punchiness in the basses and lower sustain .. a little stiff and tense .. relax the bass register ..more high partials activated .. flamenco color .. spare and reductive .. enhances the overtones .. boxy, dry, punchy kind of sound .. tone.. flamenco sound .. treble sound .. over tone activity .. fire cracker .. not a LOUD instrument.. an instrument with voice .. speak like great actors, not scream .. raw or sweet in its dynamic range .. inter-dimensional voicing.. loudness and sweetness .. big dynamic range .. vowel tone, like a human voice .. big tough guitars .. tubby sounding .. the open tone .. flamenco edge .. amazing .. low "pulsacion" .. soft attack .. responded crisply .. very nice guitars .. kind of his stamp .. sound .. noticable rumble .. bass production .. bold trebles .. string/nail attack noise .. stiffer articulation .. certain tonal aspects and/or sustain value .. stronger trebles .. very traditional sound .. brighter and stronger .. a firm E string .. powerful .. voice .. sustain .. brightness .. attack .. treble strong pattern .. metallic core sound .. low frequency of the box air .. vibrational modes .. overly bright sound when dying .. stronger mid range .. scooped mids .. brightness and deep punch .. power and projection .. poor articulation .. bass string tight and sturdy .. high frequency activity is not ……. Sympathetic .. out of phase .. higher partials are out of whack .. over active extraneous noise .. healthy round strings .. overtone series ……. out of control .. string overtone generation .. power that is projection .. instant gratification under your ear .. sound enormous 20-30 feet away .. not blown up sound .. penetrating sound .. highly focused at long range .. under the ear not "explosive” .. up close living tonal aspect .. vibration of the guitar's integral parts .. projection by its vowel tone in the middle register .. it barks.
Rap wins I think.
I think it is a rap, more than a recipe. And just now indicates to me guitar making is still a kind of structural poetry. Guitar is a poem made of small slivers of wood glued to bigger warped panels, all under some tension. There seems be no right way or wrong way to do it as long as the reader agrees and the basic grammar of constructions is mostly correct.
All the people I know who build that have backgrounds in physics and aerodynamics don't bother to come with a grand theory of how it works because it is too complicated for that kind of overview. They seem satisfied to take it as part poetic and part hard engineering. The ones who try to see it as all empirical and little poetry are, for me, difficult to suffer.
I like the metaphor of the guitar bracing system as a chess opening. Each opening has fundamental character and thrust into the middle game, but after that it's deep water. Each maker plays the middle and end game differently, but with diverse styles of elegance and beauty. More than one beautiful kind of guitar, as there are thousands of beautiful games of chess derived from one opening.
If only our beautiful thoughts and words would pay our elegant rents.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date May 15 2016 2:45:23
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
Sometimes I wonder if you have ever read Douglas Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid - or perhaps just flicked through the pages as most people do.
I read it when it was first published and couldn't put it down. Hofstadter's ideas, examples, and illustrations using Godel, Bach, and Escher, of "self-referencing" and "strange loops," not to mention all the other ideas presented, as well as M.C. Escher's illustrations, were a real treat.
But we had better not continue with Hofstadter here, as it will surely lead this thread astray into "Off-Topic" material, which is verboten.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 15 2016 11:33:43
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
My understanding is that the Romeros played a big role in connecting Contreras and Rodriguez.
As an instance, Contreas for few years used a suspended second transverse bar, with just a point of contact with the top (at the central strut) as Rodriguez alone was doing in Spain at the moment.
The story was that Yuris Zeltin repaired a Rodriguez guitar (probably Pepe's one) with a collapsed top by installing a suspended bar, just fixed on the sides.
Later that very guitar was showed to Rodriguez himself.
Rodriguez found this a good idea and started using the bar also in his new guitars but in the meantime Pepe had shown the guitar also to Contreras inviting him to try it as well (as Contreras did for a couple of years).
Eventually the 2 makers abandoned it.
The 1977 Miguel Rodriguez that I drew a plan of, actually had the middle brace added by Yuris due to its need for structural integrity. However, while the guitar was in my hands, for a fair amount of time, I noticed that the added brace slightly interfered with the voice. I found this to be the case when I temporarily removed it to examine the top.
So, what M. Rodriguez did after that, is far from my estimation. But what I do know is that Pepe Rodriguez did experiments with his top thickness' even to 1994 to try and prevent the top from collapsing. One of his I viewed was 2.8 mm around the edges and 2.4 mm in the middle areas under the bridge. This was, in my estimation, too much against a good tonal response.
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Date May 20 2016 16:46:39
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
As an instance, Contreas for few years used a suspended second transverse bar, with just a point of contact with the top (at the central strut) as Rodriguez alone was doing in Spain at the moment.
The story was that Yuris Zeltin repaired a Rodriguez guitar (probably Pepe's one) with a collapsed top by installing a suspended bar, just fixed on the sides.
Later that very guitar was showed to Rodriguez himself.
Rodriguez found this a good idea and started using the bar also in his new guitars but in the meantime Pepe had shown the guitar also to Contreras inviting him to try it as well (as Contreras did for a couple of years).
Eventually the 2 makers abandoned it.
A friend of mine had a Contreras doble tapa with the suspended bar. I always thought it was a bit "tight". The construction looked as though it would tend to kill the top dipole mode, rocking about the bridge as axis. A few months ago I was making spectral analyses of a few guitars I had recorded. For single strings the first harmonic was always notably stronger than the fundamental. The suspended bar seemed to kill the fundamental even more, though I never looked at spectrograms for that guitar.
My friend and I were in Madrid and went together to the Contreras shop in Calle Mayor. It was after the death of Manuel Sr. My friend was describing the guitar to the nice woman behind the counter when Pablo ("Manuel II") came in the door off the street. He paused for a moment and listened, then said, "Bring the guitar to us and we will remove the bar."
I asked whether his father had made the tops differently for the guitars with the suspended bar. I was assured that he had not. The guitar was brought to the shop, and presumably taken away to the workshop elsewhere. When it was returned a few days later, I thought it was notably improved.
Pablo sadly passed away before I had an opportunity to see him again, so I never had the chance to ask him whether they had done anything besides removing the bar.
RNJ
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Date May 21 2016 3:28:48
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