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RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to jshelton5040

quote:

I'm surprised by the number and size of the back braces


The "exhibition" looked as if Jesus and Manuel had searched around for old unwanted junk to create the impression of a workshop for passers by. I checked the back of my blanca and it has only three braces.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2016 11:31:48
 
Echi

 

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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

Ok, I realise I'm not clear when I speak (the other option is that you don't read carefully enough); I assume it's likely because of my not great level of English.

Btw Anders, last time our discussion ended up with you mostly agreeing with me as there was a similar misunderstanding: in that case I was speaking of the proper Torres bracing while you were referring to a generic 7 struts bracing.

In this case I meant that that guitar could be a classical guitar instead of a flamenco because of the 4 struts on the back (and not because of the 9 struts of the fan on the top).
Actually I wrote to have seen a flamenco guitar by Manuel Bellido with the same 9 struts Fleta bracing but just 3 back braces, as Robje confirmed shortly after. I saw instead a Classical guitar from the Bellido workshop with 4 back struts.
As a consequence my understanding is that this guitar was probably a classical guitar.

Given that, I also wrote that my problem, and now I speak as a former owner of many Bellido guitars, is the low pulsacion of the top (meaning I would prefer a stiffer top) no matter how many struts you use.

Believe me or not, squared or not, I'm accustomed to judge the guitars for how they sound and how easy they are and not for how many struts they have underneath.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2016 11:56:48
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

quote:

Believe me or not, squared or not, I'm accustomed to judge the guitars for how they sound and how easy they are and not for how many struts they have underneath.


I believe you and your explanation makes sense. I also know to well the language barrier that some of us run into constantly on forums like this one.
I also have the same feeling as you that most Manuel Bellido guitars have a pulsation that is on the softer side and I have the same taste as you in that I also prefer a slightly stiffer pulsation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2016 12:25:57
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Andy, I would just like to say that you started a very interesting thread and discussion among luthiers. You, Anders, Echi, Stephen, Tom, John and other luthiers have important and interesting things to say, not only among yourselves, but for those of us who are non-luthiers as well. It is great to see you guys carrying on this discussion, and we all gain from it.

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2016 13:31:00
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Echi

quote:

the other option is that you don't read carefully enough


You are probably right - sorry!

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2016 14:10:06
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1132
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe


It's likely my English.
Anyway, I was answering at the previous post:
quote:


I'm surprised by the number and size of the back braces. Unless it's very thin that back is going to be tight as a drum (maybe a good thing)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2016 15:05:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

That Bellido, even through you tube a layers of mics and such sounds great.

The reason I was thinking about Fleta however was to make a a classical to put on consignment at a dealers in Nagoya. They granted me, finally, the invitation to show in their shop. The Fleta would be a first for me so not sure I want to chance it. I have been making a Hauser II brace scheme for classicals that I am getting used to, maybe not the best time to switch to a new model.

Wondering now how you think Bellido trimmed down the Fleta idea to make a flamenco? I have seen a de la Chica with 9 fans and a few other rely good flamenco guitars with seven or nine fans, that taught me that it's not a number of fans or always light structure that makes is flamenco. You would not happen to be adventurous enough to shine a light in your guitar and show the braces would you? haha Or speculate on how thick or thin the top is?


Any insight to the Hauser II curved harmonic bar? Does it add anything sound wise by doing that?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2016 15:08:38
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

quote:


Any insight to the Hauser II curved harmonic bar? Does it add anything sound wise by doing that?


If it had added something then most probably a lot more guitars would have curved harmonic bars.
I have built several guitars with curved lower harmonic bar. That was when I made guitars with more dome than the last 60 - 70 ones I´ve made. I prefer what i do now. If not I wouldnt do so
so in my case building with a curved lower harmonic bar didn´t add anything soundwise. But in other cases it might be different.
When building flamenco guitars with a higher dome than I do, a curved lower harmonic bar has the advantage of making the strings more parallel to the soundboard, something that I consider to be crucial in a good flamenco setup. That was the reason I used it. Not sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2016 15:25:18
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Andy, I would just like to say that you started a very interesting thread and discussion among luthiers. You, Anders, Echi, Stephen, Tom, John and other luthiers have important and interesting things to say, not only among yourselves, but for those of us who are non-luthiers as well. It is great to see you guys carrying on this discussion, and we all gain from it.

Bill


Thanks for that Bill, I'm glad you're enjoying it and I'm happy to see that it hasn't gone off the rails at all yet!

On my guitars I do arch the lower harmonic bar slightly. Basically the dishing of my solera continues to what would be about the middle of the soundhole, so there is still a slight curve below the hole.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 0:13:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Any insight to the Hauser II curved harmonic bar? Does it add anything sound wise by doing that?


This is speculation and I have not made enough of them to test this yet, but I think opening up more free soundboard area can potentially lower the main top resonance. The Hauser II, like yours, have a "Vee" shaped braced, I think builders after Hauser II interpreted that Vee into a curve. I'm not sure if Hauser II did or did not make them with curved braces.

Here is how it feels to me and this is unscientific, so take it for what it's worth knowing that. When the brace is swept back it opens more space along the grain on each side of the sound hole. Instead of stopping the top with a straight across brace the curved brace lets the long the grain movement be more free if the top is thick like they made them, then that lets is be more free because it has strength from it's thickness. He uses parabolic shaped fan braces and points them at about the 13th or 14th fret splaying them out wide and at a good angle. Generally speaking that wide fan placement creates stiffness that supports high frequency , the trebles benefit. But bass favors support from low frequency that is the noticable rumble of the a vibrating top, he could have been opening the top space a bit to favor a looser over all top that could chip into bass production.

The Hauser II design looks like it is a treble producer, my intuition is that he was trying to add low frequency support area. I have made one with a straight across bar too, it seems slightly different. So my best guess is that the open area helps lower main air and top resonance and supports bass in a system that generally makes bold trebles. I also have a hunch and this is also speculation not to be taken as fact, that lower top and main air resonance has a relationship with how the guitar eats string/nail attack noise. Right now I am working with this system on my intended "classical" guitars to get pure as possible notes with as little possible nail attack noise. If we were not so far apart I would send the one I have finished and unsold for you and your mom to play and give feed back.

The three models I picked to work out classical guitar sound are Hauser I and Hauser II and I am going to also make the Romanillos with the open lateral braces and the fans poking through them. The flamencos I do, pretty much always have, as the Santos - Barbero thing on spruce, but I want to use something with more support on cedar so the Bellido stuff looks pretty interesting to me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 6:25:43
 
Echi

 

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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

Hauser II and for sure Hauser III used to work with the parabolic transverse bar and I believe he was among the first to do it (Jeffrey Elliot reported this info) .
I never tried one of them personally, but they are listed and recorded in the new Ulrich book.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 7:06:44
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

The lateral or transverse bars that the Hausers used are not really parabolic, they are either curved or Vee shaped. The fan braces are parabolic.

Parabolic means they look a cross section of an airplane wing, the fans have that shape, the lateral braces are rectangular in section and rounded on top. They look like conventional transverse bars only curved up into a smile shape. If you look at the smile shape as an upward curving line it is parabolic in plan view, but not parabolic in height.

The fan braces are referred to as being parabolic because they are shaped into convex curves in terms of how high they are on each end and in the middle. They slope up and over to resemble airfoils which makes them a special kind of parabola, an asymmetric parabola. Or they could be a true parabola which means they are curved the same on both end towards the middle, a symmetrical parabola. For practical purposes I think the guitar fans usually get planed into asymmetric parabolas, if you want to be talking in correct geometric terms. I certainly don't want any engineers up in arms about parabolic mistakes.

Just so people don't get confused..here s sketch of the Vee shaped transverse brace. And the showing the parabolic profile of the fan brace.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 10:28:10
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to estebanana

Stephan,

My understanding is that there are 100's if not 1000's of guitar designs and each good design has its own merit regardless of what it is. I have found that most popular designs can be modified by top or strut thickness to accommodate most players needs, just by fine tuning. But when it comes to classical vs. flamenco, we have to take into consideration that some designs hold strictly to one or the other style.

In my opinion, flamenco guitars need more flap in the top which requires less fan brace support, and even this can be managed to give a stiffer articulation depending on where or how the braces are placed; top thickness, and so on. For example: A 2.8 mm top needs practically no fan bracing unless you are using them to guide certain tonal aspects and/or sustain value.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 12:52:25
 
estebanana

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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

Yeah I agree, I think the Hauser II design will make a flamenco simply by making the fans more parallel and closer to the center line. But why bother when you can make Santos ! haha

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 13:17:41
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

quote:

My understanding is that there are 100's if not 1000's of guitar designs and each good design has its own merit regardless of what it is. I have found that most popular designs can be modified by top or strut thickness to accommodate most players needs, just by fine tuning. But when it comes to classical vs. flamenco, we have to take into consideration that some designs hold strictly to one or the other style.

In my opinion, flamenco guitars need more flap in the top which requires less fan brace support, and even this can be managed to give a stiffer articulation depending on where or how the braces are placed; top thickness, and so on. For example: A 2.8 mm top needs practically no fan bracing unless you are using them to guide certain tonal aspects and/or sustain value.


I completely agree.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 13:45:52
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to estebanana

But why bother when you can make Santos ! haha

.......................................................................................


I feel that the Reyes supersedes the Santos for the more modern school, as I get a brighter treble end with good bass support.

Don doesn't lay down on the bass that much but its there when needed.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 15:39:55
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

I follow what you say about the trebles and a more contemporary sound.

I also constantly work with the goal of getting stronger trebles while keeping the very traditional sound...
But.... After having met some guitars that i made years before, I have kind of changed my visions. Some of these traditional guitars devellop very strong and specially very singy trebles over the years. But it takes time and a lot of playing on them.

What we, the builders have in our hands while we fine tune is newborn babies and we finetune something that by itself will change a lot with time. Thats a bit like trying to see something in the dark with the idea that its with light.
The other day I uploaded a video of a newborn baby that i had just delivered. And since it wasnt me playing, you can actually hear how it sounds. I think its already a very nice guitar but I know that in 3 - 5 years time it´ll sound quite different and that its especially the trebles that will devellop, be brighter and stronger.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 16:22:55
 
Echi

 

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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

I presume that you, as a builder, can forecast better than others how a guitar of yours will develop, and maybe take some choices accordingly.
On the perspective of a buyer it is instead quite hard to predict the potential of a guitar as you don't know how it was made.

As a player I prefer a guitar with a still top and a firm E string , knowing already it will take more time to develop.
As a part time builder I know that the future owner will make a judgement on the new-born guitar for what he sees and plays at the moment and the guitar needs to perform well right now: as a consequence I prefer to make a guitar quite light and with the domed plates instead...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2016 18:57:27
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

I also constantly work with the goal of getting stronger trebles while keeping the very traditional sound...
But.... After having met some guitars that i made years before, I have kind of changed my visions. Some of these traditional guitars devellop very strong and specially very singy trebles over the years. But it takes time and a lot of playing on them.

What we, the builders have in our hands while we fine tune is newborn babies and we finetune something that by itself will change a lot with time. Thats a bit like trying to see something in the dark with the idea that its with light.
The other day I uploaded a video of a newborn baby that i had just delivered. And since it wasnt me playing, you can actually hear how it sounds. I think its already a very nice guitar but I know that in 3 - 5 years time it´ll sound quite different and that its especially the trebles that will devellop, be brighter and stronger.


This is definitely an issue, especially with Spruce tops. I think a lot of classical players go for Cedar for this reason, Cedar has less damping and usually sounds great right away. But in the long run Spruce usually has the edge IMO.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 0:40:03
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

But why bother when you can make Santos ! haha

.......................................................................................


I feel that the Reyes supersedes the Santos for the more modern school, as I get a brighter treble end with good bass support.

Don doesn't lay down on the bass that much but its there when needed.


I'd don't buy into the notion that there is "old" sound vs. "modern " sound. There are simply old guitars that are powerful and new guitars that are powerful. Everyone who builds nylon string guitars works for trebles because that is the difficult part to produce on a nylon string format.

I don't think Reyes is superior to Santos or vice versa, it is the particular guitar that counts and how it is made. Reyes basic 7 fan plan was already old and established by the time he began using it and Reyes himself was an admirer of Santos.

There is nothing new under the Sun, old guitars can be powerful as new guitars. In fact it's not even about power, or trebles, it's about voice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 1:31:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to estebanana

quote:

This is speculation and I have not made enough of them to test this yet, but I think opening up more free soundboard area can potentially lower the main top resonance. The Hauser II, like yours, have a "Vee" shaped braced, I think builders after Hauser II interpreted that Vee into a curve. I'm not sure if Hauser II did or did not make them with curved braces.


Actually, if you have the Sheldon Urlik book, guitar 52 is the 1962 Hauser II, the pattern is shown, and the guitar I have is just like that one. The harmonic bar is not the V version, it is that gentle "U" curved shape. I get that classical guitars are what they are vs more static flamenco patterns, but I can tell that if the bridge was lower, the guitar could work fine for flamenco stuff. Maybe too much sustain for some folks, but the brightness and attack are good. If the curve adds bass to a treble strong pattern, as you suspect, it could be something to think about.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 3:54:26
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

When I hear the Hausers on the GSI website videos most of the sound like they have a metallic core sound. The classical players don't push that part of the sound, they play to far forward to drive it more metallic, but I can see what you mean.

Any thoughts on how or why some guitars eat nail attack noise and other guitars don't? Just from player intuition what would you say?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 5:36:31
 
Echi

 

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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to RobJe

quote:

Any thoughts on how or why some guitars eat nail attack noise and other guitars don't?

I have some ideas as a result of some tests I did in my classical guitars (mostly following the Romanillos pattern).
The last test was just to shave down the bracing in some points and prove to be effective, at least for that guitar.
The problem here is that there are so many variables in guitar building that we should have time and space to discuss it properly and to read the things in the proper context.
It's a matter of fact that this is not the best place for someone like me to do it, either because of language problems or because such a discussion needs of generalisations and contextualisations. At least here in the forum.
If after any generalisation someone feels the need to specify that everything is possible in lutherie, there's no point even to start then.

Anyway, my understanding is that for that purpose it's fondamental the 3 cm wide area just behind the low harmonic bar (where the fingers hit the strings the most): the thickest and braceless that area, the softer the attack.
Of course this works strictly in relation with the shape of the harmonic bar itself. I have made my trials to guitars with a low harmonic bar in the Centre.
To use a bent harmonic bar can practically end up achieving the same result in a different way.
Practically speaking, everybody shapes the fan struts close to the harmonic bar.
You can do it the Torres way (similar to what Andy does) or the Hauser way, with a long, gradual shape that end up to a poor support close to the harmonic bar.
I noticed that often, guitars with a strong attack (let say the Condes) have the 3rd and 5th fan struts even touching the harmonic bars, while many soft attack guitars (those I had or those examined) I found were with no brace support at all down there.
Another important aspect is the low frequency of the box air.
I won't start speaking of vibrational modes here. Take it just for what it is and as a suggestion
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 9:51:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

When I hear the Hausers on the GSI website videos most of the sound like they have a metallic core sound. The classical players don't push that part of the sound, they play to far forward to drive it more metallic, but I can see what you mean.

Any thoughts on how or why some guitars eat nail attack noise and other guitars don't? Just from player intuition what would you say?


Not sure what you mean by nail attack noise exactly. I would have to hear the examples. Echi describes strong vs soft attack which I think is something different. Let me just say that I have always felt noises on guitar strings give it all it's charm vs say a piano. So not sure why there is such a concern about eliminating attack noise. Of course it is more welcomed in flamenco along with string buzz and other things.

I will say the bright clicking of nails on the strings and zipping of fretboard fingers across the strings are due to the very higher frequencies. When bass strings die brightness is lost and with it goes a lot of the string noises of a new set of strings. Old trebles however can have a bad overly bright sound when dying I think because they wear and lower action and slap the frets more. For sure when a set of strings is new and settled (not stretching) the guitars seem brighter due to the upper harmonics sparkling in tune with each other. Humidity levels changing can also affect this....drier conditions will give you more brightness than very humid ones.

So to "eat" the attack or brightness, the simplest ways to see it is if the mids are increased. Take a sound system and increase the mids and notice the attack disappears in favor of a more vocal type tone. THis will also remove thumping basses and seem to increase volume. So I would think that a stronger mid range built into a guitar will do the same thing. Guitars with a more scooped mids will have that brightness and deep punch. Balance is key.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 11:42:43
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to estebanana

quote:

There is nothing new under the Sun, old guitars can be powerful as new guitars. In fact it's not even about power, or trebles, it's about voice.


I can't disagree with this but Santos was all about voice rather than power and projection, and for this reason he used certain thinning techniques that, in my opinion, went against volume. And age seemed to catch up with his power.

Granted, the more you work with the voice the more it interferes with the volume. So, I've seen one Santos thick top classical style that was really good all over and a lot of mediocre ones that had poor articulation....but the voice seemed to linger on....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 13:33:21
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

So to "eat" the attack or brightness, the simplest ways to see it is if the mids are increased. Take a sound system and increase the mids and notice the attack disappears in favor of a more vocal type tone. THis will also remove thumping basses and seem to increase volume. So I would think that a stronger mid range built into a guitar will do the same thing. Guitars with a more scooped mids will have that brightness and deep punch. Balance is key.


Exactly right, as the mid range has to be more earthy and giving to project the voice, otherwise it sounds more like string noise. I try and keep the bass string tight and sturdy with the treble string bright and sweet but Mr. in-between has to be a vowel tone in what I think is the second and third string. You can control the Bass with tapering technique.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 13:42:27
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Nail noise:

I have two classicals that exemplify this. The Abel Garcia spruce/Brazilian has top bracing more like Santos than any other published pattern I have seen. Seven fans, with a treble side "cutoff" that is taller than the fan braces. It angles across the harmonic bar ends of the treble fans, making them shorter than those on the bass side. The lower harmonic bar has openings that let the treble cutoff and the outer bass fan through. The guitar has a wide tonal range, it can be mellow or quite brilliant. It has the best 2nd and 3rd strings of any classical guitar I have become familiar with. You have to be careful not to scrape the nails across the string if you don't want to hear that high frequency hiss.

The 1973 Romanillos spruce/Indian has a thicker top, seven fans laid out symmetrically. It is "modeled on" a 1950 Hauser. The fan struts are not as high as on the Garcia, the lower harmonic bar has no openings. This guitar has a stiffer pulsacion than the Garcia, and requires a precise right hand attack to get its wide tonal range. After playing the Garcia for a week, it takes me 15 or 20 minutes to accommodate to the Romanillos. It deifinitely puts out less of the highest frequency overtones than the Garcia, but it still has a beautiful voice, once you adjust to producing it. It "eats" the high frequency hiss of nails scraped across the strings, but can still give a sharp attack when wanted. With the right hand near the bridge, it gives a more metallic sound than the Garcia.

Both are great guitars, and I feel fortunate to have them.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 17:27:47
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

Granted, the more you work with the voice the more it interferes with the volume.


Youp, I agree. IMHO its about finding a balance between voice and volume.
All this talking (especially by beginners) about volume and brightness doesnt exactly make a nice flamenco guitar. On the contrary, very bright guitars which has a lot volume can be very tirering to play or listen to.
There was a guy here in Huelva that played with a lot of singers using a Negra by a very welllknown and expensive builder. I had to leave everytime he played. i just couldnt stand his guitar sound. And it didnt matter if it was miked up or not.

Volume is of course important. Acoustic guitars do not have a lot of volume compared to many other instruments, but there is a limit where all this search for volume end up making the guitar loose to much soundquality and sonic variation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2016 18:58:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I will say the bright clicking of nails on the strings and zipping of fretboard fingers across the strings are due to the very higher frequencies. When bass strings die brightness is lost and with it goes a lot of the string noises of a new set of strings. Old trebles however can have a bad overly bright sound when dying I think because they wear and lower action and slap the frets more. For sure when a set of strings is new and settled (not stretching) the guitars seem brighter due to the upper harmonics sparkling in tune with each other.


I pretty much know what the other guitar makers here will say on stuff at this point, so I have hatched this novel plan to ask guitar players about how to build guitars.

What you say confirms what I was thinking, that high frequency activity contributes to the amount of incidental sound made by the actual touching and application of hand and nail to string.

High frequency is interesting because too much emphasis on it is annoying and too little is lackluster, or so it pretends to be. It can also be detrimental when the high frequency activity is not as you say sympathetic, but out of phase. When higher partials are out of whack with each other and over active extraneous noise accumulates. I think intonation has a lot do do with this, well intonated instruments and healthy round strings help keep the overtone series from being out of control.

I'm not super fixated on extraneous noise from hands in strings for flamenco guitars, but too much is not good. But there is a link or relationship between string overtone generation, treble and projection that I am interested in for a "classical " format where less string noise has value. Both sales value and musical value.

I get the reason people talk about power, but I think there are underlying things that are more important and power is a by-product of those things. It's fairly easy to build for raw power, but it is deceptive because power at the guitar or even articulation are instant gratification issues for me. We like guitars that speak right away, have fast articulation, blah blah blah, all the things that add up to easy to play and instantly gratifying.

But does power you perceive at the guitar equate to power that is projection? I'm exploring the idea, again, that there are trades off between instant gratification under your ear at the guitar, and more difficult to play instruments that give a rarer quality.

What do you think about guitars that do not sound BIG under your ear, but sound enormous 20-30 feet away? Not blown up sound, but penetrating sound, highly focused at long range. Yet under the ear not "explosive".

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2016 3:22:22
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Harmonic bars (in reply to estebanana

quote:

What do you think about guitars that do not sound BIG under your ear, but sound enormous 20-30 feet away? Not blown up sound, but penetrating sound, highly focused at long range. Yet under the ear not "explosive".


I think it's possible to have both to some extent by fine tuning the voice. You can have an up close living tonal aspect by vibration of the guitar's integral parts and projection by its vowel tone in the middle register. This can fill a concert hall without too much natural volume, as long as its vowel tone is sufficient.

For example:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2016 7:19:46
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