RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy

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Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

My experience.
I don't mean at all to claim I'm an expert of bracing patterns. I have some though and wanted to share my opinion.

Would you say that this is a common bracing pattern for flamenco guitars made serially?

Anyway, I wouldn't use the Torres pattern for a flamenco guitar.
I generally use a 5 struts almost parallel racing with a contrapuente and 2 closing bars.
My Bellido, Manzanero, Arcangel and Sanchis Carpio have similar patterns. If someone likes, I can post the pictures.

Anyway my guess is that the most common bracing pattern for flamenco is the typical Santos pattern, with struts almost parallel and without the 2 closing bars.
Just my opinion, obviously.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2016 22:44:44

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Echi)

Echi
Your ideas about guitarbuilding are very square and i dont think you help yourself or any other builder or otherwise interested. You only limit yourself and make others believe something that is based speculation.

Yes, I think using 7struts is VERY normal. I cant say that 5 or 7 is used the most because both are very normal here in Spain. There are more flamenco guitar plans with 7 struts (Barbero, Reyes, Santos Hernandez ) than with 5 struts. When i worked in a shop selling factory (Valencia and Alicante) and luthier made guitars (Bellido), there were clearly more 7 strut guitars than 5 strut.

Its not important. What matters is how you work the sticks. The DeVoe has the struts layed out with more angle than I would do, but I´m 100% sure he knows what he is doing and I´ve seen many flamenco guitars like that.

Personally, I have made maybe some 60 guitars with 7 struts and another 60 with 5 struts . At this very moment I prefer 5 struts for my blancas and on the negras I like both. It depends on the soundboard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 8:15:36

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Echi)

I agree with the most you said and agree also that I'm a little square in my opinions.
I don't think to make speculations or to deceive people though.
In this case, my (humble/ squared ) opinion is that the Torres bracing pattern (7 fan struts + 2 closing bars with the apex of the fan around the 14th fret) is not ideal for flamenco guitars serially made.
Even though it obviously can work, I don't see it commonly used in the market of flamenco guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 8:46:36

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Echi)

Well I decided to change strings again. I had a Savarez Alliance for the G string and really like it so I decided to replace the Luthier 20 treble strings with Alliance. I had tried some carbon in the past and decided I didn't like them because they had a "fake" sound. The buzzing on the B string went away and strings are definitely louder with more attack but lack the warmth of nylon strings. They do have sort of sparkle to the sound and rasgueados sound much better with less nail noise. The tension is a bit higher so maybe that is helping. My guitar does have a flabby sound to it so I think these strings help with that.

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 17:35:32

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Echi)

quote:

The tension is a bit higher so maybe that is helping.

I know

Set a toothpick under your bridge for experiments sake and I bet you it'll sound even better.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 17:39:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Echi)

quote:

I agree with the most you said and agree also that I'm a little square in my opinions.
I don't think to make speculations or to deceive people though.
In this case, my (humble/ squared ) opinion is that the Torres bracing pattern (7 fan struts + 2 closing bars with the apex of the fan around the 14th fret) is not ideal for flamenco guitars serially made.
Even though it obviously can work, I don't see it commonly used in the market of flamenco guitars.

Well, I´m glad that we can discuss these things quietly.
I would never make a flamenco 7 fan struts + 2 closing bars with the apex of the fan around the 14th fret like the original Torres and I believe the Lester DeVoe guitar has its apex at a much lower fret number as well. It also has shorter closing struts. But all these 7 strut bracings are based on Torres and with just very fine adjustments they can be made to sound very flamenco.
So may I ask you: When you say that you dont see that bracing pattern used a lot on flamenco guitars, do you mean the original Torres bracing or 7 piece bracing in general?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 8:09:47

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Echi)

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear.
I meant the proper Torres bracing (the one he commonly used to use for the large plantillas) with 7 struts with the apex of the fan around the 8-14 fret + 2 closing bars converging from the external struts to the central one.
In my opinion this bracing doesn't favour an ideal torsion of the top for a flamenco guitar (but tweaking properly the struts, as you said).
The pattern I see more common is the typical 7 bracing pattern a la Santos, with the struts a little more parallel and no (or reduced) closing bars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 9:29:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14821
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

I don't know many flamenco guitar makers using that bracing pattern.
Of course if DeVoe uses it regularly, it means the pattern does it's job also for this purpose, but I wouldn't say that this is a common bracing pattern for a flamenco guitar.
I know: the bracing pattern itself, without reference to the characteristics of the wood is just a small part. I'm still not convinced it works well for a semi- industrial guitar though.

The books I have seen that show patterns, I have to say the variety is quite wide for both classical and flamenco guitars. I would think flamenco guitars would permit less but it's not what I have noticed. The devoe looks like a cedar top... That might be a reason for the different style pattern? I am only familiar with his spruce tops.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 12:02:35

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Echi)

Maybe you refer to the book of Ulrich, which is extremely nice btw.
You can anyway catch some similarities.

Unfortunately, as Anders said many times, the bracing patterns - taken alone - without other infos, like the shape of the struts, the size of the plantilla and the modulus of Young /weight of the top - can be deceiving.
If you can take a braced top in your hands and flex it here and there, this would tell you something more.
In the case of the Torres pattern, it supports uniformly the whole top, granting a certain cross grain stiffness, which I don't find too good for a flamenco guitar.

To make an example, to judge a picture of a pattern it's a little like to judge a guitar just from you tube.
There are things you can't get from there.
But in case you had tried that guitar or a similar one before, then the same YouTube video can tell you a lot more.

Coming back to the topic, sometimes the builder uses different bracing patterns but his guitars sound very similar.
In fact is more important to understand the principle behind the use of a certain feature than the feature itself.
Other example: Once I wanted to make a Reyes copy.
I bought the GaL plan, surfed in Internet (read Tom's comments etc.) and studied the project but the result wasn't satisfying.
Later on I had the chance to try carefully a Reyes, to look carefully inside and tap the top here and there.
The result was way better. I got many more infos having the instrument in my hands and playing it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 14:05:37

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Echi)

Ok, thanks for clearing things.
We´ve actually been discussing without disagreeing. Something that happens often on the internet.

Just as a plan itself doesnt say much compared to touching an instrument built to that plan, discussing on the internet can often be a bit the same.

So for judgement only......