RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy

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Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

I will admit I have a serious case of new guitar lust.
I figured that since I sold a classical I had for many years and wasn't playing it and the flamenco I bought a few years ago intending it to be a starter guitar in case I wasn't serious about playing. But I am serious about playing and I figured that selling those two guitars plus about $1,000 would get me to my budget of $3K for a new guitar. But my wife strongly disagreed and told me that I need to improve my playing before considering a new guitar.
Also my daughter is getting married next year and just the wedding dress will cost as much as a new guitar. Its frustrating when you work hard your whole life and make descent money but can't afford the things that really matter. So I will stop whining and humbly continue to play the guitar I have but not in love with, it is not holding me back. As my playing improves I will probably be in a better position to know what I really want.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2016 0:37:39

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

Has anyone checked the frets. Are they level or are some frets sticking up?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2016 8:18:03

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

But my wife strongly disagreed and told me that I need to improve my playing before considering a new guitar. Also my daughter is getting married next year and just the wedding dress will cost as much as a new guitar.

Plan: suggest that you would like to play something at your daughter's wedding, that you want it to sound perfect because it's your daughter and you love her, that with your current guitar it would ruin the ceremony with snare drum sounds, and lo and behold your new guitar is now part of the wedding expenses

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2016 8:32:34

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Ah ok, I know what the problem is. You need to get a Conde.

..and move to Spain!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2016 11:16:22

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Has anyone checked the frets. Are they level or are some frets sticking up?

Anders,

I checked the frets with a very good straight edge. There are not any sticking up, but there is a concave bow across the length of the neck. Because of the bow the strings are about 0.3mm higher at the 6th fret.
The string height at the first and 12th fret are good so I don't think it should be a problem but not sure if the bow is normal either.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2016 16:42:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Has anyone checked the frets. Are they level or are some frets sticking up?

Anders,

I checked the frets with a very good straight edge. There are not any sticking up, but there is a concave bow across the length of the neck. Because of the bow the strings are about 0.3mm higher at the 6th fret.
The string height at the first and 12th fret are good so I don't think it should be a problem but not sure if the bow is normal either.

The concave bowing is called releief and 0.3mm sounds very correct. Some will say that flamencos dont need relief, but I believe they do and 0.3 is fine for me. Classicals often have more.
Look at how string vibrate and you will understand why relief is considered necessary.

You cannot check for uneven frets with a straight edge. Its not precise enough. You need a very short straightedge that only covers 3 frets to se if any of them are higher. Stewmac has an awesome tool for that and it really makes fret dressing a charm.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2016 7:07:34

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

Bank cards work well too.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2016 10:38:31

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

Cervantes, the tool Anders mentioned is a fret rocker. As Sr. Martins mentioned, other things can be used but the key is a super flat edge. There are videos on youtube on how to use the rocker. You might be surprised to find out how a high point here or there will create noise, buzzing, rattling, etc. Even the best guitars can get them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2016 14:07:52

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

Bank cards work well too.

Yes, but since its flexible and thin its clearly inferior and doesnt really give you the input you need. Also, the 3 different length of the Stewmac fretrocker is just very well made. It fits the whole fretboard
You can make your own out of a 3mm piece of aluminium or steel, but I have never regretted buying the stewmac thing. It just works and saves a lot of time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2016 15:55:21

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Yes, but since its flexible and thin its clearly inferior and doesnt really give you the input you need.

Some are harder than others but yeah, it's more like a ballpark thing. Also the metal fret rocker has the advantage of the way it sounds when there's a gap.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2016 18:21:53

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

I checked the frets with the best thing I could find, a cabinet scraper.
I think its pretty flat. The only thing I noticed is the 12th fret is slightly high but only a tiny amount so I don't that explains anything.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2016 1:44:36

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

Also the metal fret rocker has the advantage of the way it sounds when there's a gap.

Exactly, I forgot that one.

Cervantes, a cabinet scraper is better than a straight edge, but the idea of checking frets is to check 3 a time and see if they rock. Not 2, not 4... but 3.
This you do all the way down the fretboard.

A good fretwork requires setting the fingerboard right so that it doesnt have any humps and the correct relief. Then install the frets, check that there are no uneven frets with a fret rocking tool. If there are, file untill flat (single cut files work the best). Then redress the filed frets and round the corners of all frets.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2016 7:18:01

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

Cervantes, if you do not want to pony up the money for a fret rocker you can use a short piece of metal that has a very straight and flat edge. Some hardware stores sell rulers that are about 2-3 inches long, or you can use the ruler that comes with automobile feeler gauge set (much heavier than the feelers) or, in a pinch, short angle iron (sold in hardware stores). As Anders stated, the key is to rock on 3 frets and then move up one fret and repeat. If there is a high point it will eventually be in the middle of the 3 frets and the metal edge will rock back and forth. Of course, the metal edge must be flat and even.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2016 11:17:15

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

The cabinet scraper is rectangular so one side is longer and one side is shorter. I was able to check three frets at time and as I said before only the 12th fret was very slightly high. I believe the noise has nothing to do with the frets but is coming from the guitar body itself. Could be the wood, bracing or something to do with the construction. Also it could be I am overly sensitive to the noise as I notice a big difference compared to my teacher playing his guitar and I do notice I like guitars that have more of a mid range sound. It does have a solid spruce top and cypress back and sides. The construction seems to look good. The guitar was from a local luthier who I believe does good work, but the guitar was built at his factory just across the border in Mexico so I assume he didn't build it but oversees the building. When I bought it he sold it to me for half the retail price because he said it had some blemishes. I did replace the nut and saddle as they were cheap plastic and causing problems.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2016 19:13:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

To be honest, the guitar is amplifying the nail sound because the guitar top is very resonant. It's normally considered a good thing.

. I notice many classical players complain about squeaks when sliding across bass strings for the same reason. To dampen it you can put some humidity in the case and it will take the "edge off" so to speak. To many that means dulling the sound, but it will make the guitar less "alive" for sure. Just be careful because if the guitar dries out too quick, the wood can crack. Keep the guitar in the case with some humidity at all times when not playing, or if it is just too dull or you dont' notice any affect of sound, then let the guitar dry out very gradually using less humidity each day.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2016 19:21:01

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

It could also be a loose brace.
The most difficult thing about repairs is not always the repairs themselves but finding out what is wrong. A bit like finding out why an old british motorbike wont start.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2016 21:23:02

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

A bit like finding out why an old british motorbike wont start.

Come on, that's an easy one. It wasn't designed to.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2016 21:30:47

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

IMHO it's just a matter of the way the guitar is built.
Some guitars (more than others) have a fast and sharp "attack" of the note which ends up in amplifying too much the touch of the nails on the strings.
This is due of the kind of wood used for the top (a cedar top usually does it way less than a spruce top) and the kind of bracing.
I noticed that when the struts of the fan bracing reach the main transverse bar without shading down, usually the attack of the note is sharper.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2016 21:33:57

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

I am thinking of sticking a mirror inside to look around to see what the bracing looks like and for anything loose. I really have accepted the guitar is what it is and this is now just a learning experience in trying to understand why.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2016 21:54:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

IMHO it's just a matter of the way the guitar is built.
Some guitars (more than others) have a fast and sharp "attack" of the note which ends up in amplifying too much the touch of the nails on the strings.
This is due of the kind of wood used for the top (a cedar top usually does it way less than a spruce top) and the kind of bracing.
I noticed that when the struts of the fan bracing reach the main transverse bar without shading down, usually the attack of the note is sharper.

Your humble opinion is a bit "square" for me,

I may understand some of it. I have occasionally had hands on flamenco guitars that were noisy in themselves. Like there something sympathetic high pitch ringing going on in the box which is very annoying and basically makes the instrument useless. Fortunately I have never encountered that in any of my own instruments and it is a rare thing.

Who doesnt shade down the struts. I have only seen that in very cheap factory guitars and then they normally have square struts as well. And maybe only 3 struts and painted "bindings". (can we go any cheaper

)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2016 6:42:35

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

I took a look inside and the bracing looks pretty typical, 7 fan struts and diagonal ones at the bottom. there are some wide strips between the struts under bridge. The only thing strange is the height of the struts seem low when I compare it to pictures online. Just reaching inside with my fingers they seem maybe 3mm tall. I will try to get some pictures when I have the strings off.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2016 4:45:30

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

Maybe I was a little square, yes

Too many unknown factors at this stage and it's not very clear to me what does it mean that the guitar is too noisy.
It could be something loose inside the box or just a guitar that came out with a too sharp and edgy attack. Maybe a little underbuilt.
My assumption (similar to Ricado's) is that the guitar is born this way.
Regarding the bracing/top thickness affecting the sharpness, risking a huge generalisation, I noticed that it's crucial the area of the top close by the tranverse bar ( obviously in relation with how the transverse brace itself is shaped).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2016 7:35:02

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

There is a good reason why a doctor wants to see a patient to find out what ails him rather than do it via texting or e-mails or even over the phone.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2016 15:00:13

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

A bit like finding out why an old british motorbike wont start.

Or as I know it from helping a friend with his 63 TR3: "Lucas, the prince of darkness" :))

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2016 16:45:30

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

The only thing strange is the height of the struts seem low when I compare it to pictures online. Just reaching inside with my fingers they seem maybe 3mm tall

So what make you think that 3mm is low? What is normal and what is high?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2016 8:45:31

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

The only thing strange is the height of the struts seem low when I compare it to pictures online. Just reaching inside with my fingers they seem maybe 3mm tall

So what make you think that 3mm is low? What is normal and what is high?

Anders,

I am not a guitar builder so I don't know how high they should be and if 3mm is too low. I was just comparing to pictures I found on line which they seemed to be higher. But I am looking with a small mirror and touching them with my fingers so 3mm is a guess and may not be accurate. Is there a specific height you use for the fan braces or does does it vary much depending on the characteristics of the top?

Another issue I ran into is I have been trying different strings and decided that Luthier 20 sound and feel best. But there is a problem with the B string, on certain frets it buzzes (sizzling sound) and i think it may be related to the 12th fret that I found very slightly high because it goes away when I finger the 12th fret and higher. It also seems to be string related, it seems worse with the Luthier 20 than with other strings.
So maybe I need to lower 12th fret a bit?

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2016 17:16:42

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

I found picture of a Lester Devoe. I would say the bracing looks very similar to my guitar. Too bad it doesn't sound like a Devoe.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2016 19:44:46

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

That bracing is about as standard as anything can get. Its what we call a Torres classical layout. Not exactly a copy but close.
Torres made the 7 struts 3mm high and 7mm wide as far as I remember.

Levelling frets is a can of worms if you dont know what you are doing and you can easily end up making more problems than you always have.
If you want to do it, get a good fret rocker, some good files and study the subject.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2016 8:14:19

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

I don't know many flamenco guitar makers using that bracing pattern.
Of course if DeVoe uses it regularly, it means the pattern does it's job also for this purpose, but I wouldn't say that this is a common bracing pattern for a flamenco guitar.
I know: the bracing pattern itself, without reference to the characteristics of the wood is just a small part. I'm still not convinced it works well for a semi- industrial guitar though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2016 16:36:41

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

but I wouldn't say that this is a common bracing pattern for a flamenco guitar.

What do you base this on? what is a common bracing pattern for you? And what exactly on this Lester DeVoe is not common?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2016 17:35:01