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jamh2000

 

Posts: 41
Joined: Jan. 13 2012
 

Bass in Flamenco 

So I'm mainly a bass player, and I've been wondering what people think about bass in flamenco. It can't have escaped anyone's attention that most flamenco bass is played using the bridge pickup and a jaco pastorius-esque, burpy sound with lots of ghost notes. There is Carles Bennavent of course, but no one else really has the ability or the inclination to play like him (fast and technical with a pick). Do people like the jaco sound, or find it monotonous? Are there flamenco bassists who use a more rounded sound, and can it work? Or does the bass still not really have a clear place in Flamenco?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2016 19:24:28
 
Escribano

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From: Italy

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

I was a bass player (albeit, in an indy band) but I never liked the fretless farting in flamenco. Bass should be more felt than heard. Just my opinion.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2016 20:06:52
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3041
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Please, no bass in flamenco. It's been done, of course, by none other than Paco de Lucia himself. But in my opinion a bass interferes with, rather than complements, the flamenco guitarists and diminishes the overall quality of the performance.

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2016 20:41:28
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Professional flamenco players seem to be more accepting of this than aficionados, the best playing I've heard was at Vicente amigos show recently(I know I started a thread complaining about the show.) it was like Simon said, felt and not really heard. It just kind of filled the empty spaces. Generally I don't love it though......Its a really delicate terrain to tread.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2016 20:56:54
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1799
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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Took me years to get over those wobbly bass notes at the beginning of the Calle Real album.

Felt like shooting the bass player more than once when I went to see Paco live.

Bass in flamenco?


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2016 22:05:11
 
Piwin

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

I don't think the bass has a clear place in flamenco at all at this point. Not to say it isn't possible and can't work, but I don't think it's been done yet, at least not in a way that made the instrument "accepted" by afficionados. A sense of the bass interfering with the guitar probably has a lot to do with it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2016 22:26:40
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12194
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

IMO the bass playing on all the Nuñez recordings was exemplary and tasteful. Not to say they were "flamenco" bass players but what they were doing with HIS music always made musical sense. His trio with the stand up bass was exquisite as well as original. Benevant, like many bass players unfortunately, was quite often too intrusive rather than complimentary. What happens is simply the relative volume level. I don't understand why bass players need to be so much louder than the rest of the band, but I notice it in all kinds of music. (Exception is trad jazz where it is actually too quiet). That PDL falseta I just learned, I realized looking at the score, that the transcriber was thrown off by the bass which is actually LOUDER than PDL's guitar and covers the actual note PDL was playing. Having to listen through the instruments that are not balanced can be a challenge for listeners, and I feel that is main reason folks simply don't like it. I am all for it when it is complimentary to what is going on live or in the studio.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2016 23:10:21
 
Dudnote

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to Dudnote

Having said that, it works good on Sanlucar's Al Viento album - but that album is a work of kitsch genius.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2016 23:37:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 7823
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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Several years ago when Paco played on the UC Berkeley campus Keni Parker did a hilarious review of the show on the old Temple.edu Foro

The stage background was plain scrim glowing dark blue with colored gel lighting. It looked like a Mac screen, so he reviewed the show as if he were looking at it through his desk top with a blue screen.

The first thing he did was say ideally if this were really my desk top I would grab the bass player with the mouse and put him in the recycle bin and empty the trash.
______was a very interesting review

Bass in flamenco works for be if it is an acoustic bass played by a real seasoned jazz bassist and they play a straight ahead full sound pizzicato off the end of the fingerboard. The electric sound that is like Jaco can be annoying because it does not change much, it always sounds nasal and farty. I have heard some really good bassists play with Jason McGuire, he hires top professional bassists from LA or San Francisco and right now I think he has a regular guy in his trio. If you want to hear some good bass playing in a jazz-flameco context check out the new release from Mc Guire.

His new group is probably the best adaptation of jazz and flamenco working I have heard. The playing ranges from very expansive traditional flamenco forms to virtually straight ahead jazz, with flamenco inflections. They also pull you into some free jazz that is fairly outside playing but bring you right back in and even those who don't think jazz a flamenco can work together would stand a chance of changing their minds after hearing those guys.

One of the reasons this group works is because the bassist does not go the Jaco route. He works it differently throughout the album, in places he sounds like Reggie Workman or Mingus-y and in other places he does a little Jaco here and there for color, but his Jaco is better than Benevent's Jaco and he keeps it out of the fart sonority. He keeps his 'Jaco strap' on tight and defers to John Paul Jones instead.

The drummer uses a regular jazz kit, and Jason just does his thang. This band is on my computer screen none of them go into the recycle bin, they are a fixture on the desktop.

Hot Acoustic Bass player in Flamenco, Album- Terceto Kali Jason's trio is also called Terceto Kali. He was playing under the name Jason McGuire trio but they changed the name. I have an advance copy of the CD as a pre-release and it has a a different name. I'll try to write more about it a as review, but I highly recommend it.


P.S. The Bow, use the damn bow more in flamenco. Screw the violin and flute in flamenco, bow the bass.

One of the problems I have with bass in Flamenco-jazz mix ups is that coming from a deep listening to jazz background I always feel like the Spanish musians don't swing or if they do not hard enough. With respect t Ricardo's exception and thoughts on Nunez. They begin Jazz history at Weather Report and they don't get rooted in hard swinging bass players from post Bop era. Not enough Jimmy Garrison, Reggie Workman, Mingus Paul Chambers, Red Callender, whosoever played with Dolphy, Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, in the hard bop scene is a good model for strong bass playing. Those guys are not quiet players, they are out front and muscular, but not out of place.Stanley Clarke, Paul McCartney, Niels Orsted, George Clinton, Ron Carter, Ruphus Reid, ect all are bassists that could work better than the Jaco Fusion jazz timbre.

Heck, Sting would be better than the farty faux Jaco sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2016 23:38:44
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1541
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

I always like the contrabas on Rockabilly music ( f.i. I don't care if the sun don't shine from Elvis Presley)

Would that percussive way of playing be nice on a Bulerias and the more uptempo palos? Could be working well.....!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 9:05:06
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Well, I think its more about what the player does than the instrument itself.
I have nothing against bass in Flamenco, but i strongly dislike the typical "farting" Jaco style. Again, I dont think its the lack of frets, its the players that is the problem.
A standup acoustic bass doesnt sound like that and mixes very well with guitar I cant se why an electrical bass fretted or fretless shouldnt be able to do the same in the hands of someone capable
. I agree with Ricardo that Gerardo Nuñez trio works really well. But maybe its more of a Jazz trio experience than a flamenco experience. The music is clearly based on flamenco, but the way of using the group is very jazzy (and very good IMHO) with solos for all 3 instruments etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 13:15:22
 
Brendan

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Here is one serious attempt:
http://daveholland.com/recording/dr2-006-dave-holland-and-pepe-habichuela-hands


I have no idea about this:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxvYnNjdXJlZmxhbWVuY29sb2d5fGd4OjVlMWVhNjc5OWVkYzY3ZTg

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 16:05:37
 
Mark2

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From: San Francisco

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

The problem to me is that for a bass to be added, the harmony has to be set, taking away a large slice of freedom from the guitarist. I think it can sound good on recordings, but if a guitarist is playing for cante or dance, it seems like handcuffs. As far as flamenco guitar style groups, it depends. I didn't think VA needed a bass player, but some groups might certainly benefit. Really depends on the music and the players to me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 16:58:28

ToddK

 

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Paco loved it. But hey, what does he know.

We are all much better judges.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 18:21:50
 
Piwin

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 27 2016 19:44:34
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 19:42:05
 
Escribano

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From: Italy

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to ToddK

quote:


Paco loved it. But hey, what does he know.

We are all much better judges.


This implies that one must be at least as good as PdL in order to express an opinion. An opinion (perhaps preference is a better word) is not a judgement. They are quite different things.

Let's turn that logic around. Someone comes up to you after a gig and tells you how much they enjoyed it. Do you check their musical credentials before accepting the compliment?

Paco would have very, very few fans if that were the case.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 20:17:40
 
Escribano

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Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Italy

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to Escribano

I recall a previous thread on this topic from 5 years ago:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=157061&appid=&p=&mpage=1

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 20:36:35
 
gj Michelob

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From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to Escribano

Listen to the Bass at 22:40 ... which begs the question, why?


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 21:43:15

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to Escribano

quote:

This implies that one must be at least as good as PdL in order to express an opinion.


Yeah Simon, nice standard internet response there man. But no.
The implication is too realize that if Paco heard something beautiful,
that maybe you should take the time to search for and appreciate what a man of
such staggering genius and taste heard in it, rather than making fart jokes.
Especially since he's not around anymore.
I'm spending less and less time here in the last couple of years. And now with my kids,
i don't really play guitar anymore either. Maybe its because i'm getting older, but i just can't stomach this stuff anymore. It sucks the soul right outta me. I think this is it for me, and the foro.
Its been real guys. Take care.
TK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2016 22:37:36
 
estebanana

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Sorry you feel that way Todd.

I hear Paco's changing the way way the bass works in his music over the years, I enjoy his music and recognize him as a tower, but that does not mean I have to love his sidemen. I love Miles Davis too, but sometimes I'm not thrilled with the way a sideman takes a sound into the band. But Miles and Paco both wanted them to be there. Benevent is a fine bass player, but for me in flamenco I can't honesty say I drink it up like I can't get enough. His sound and way of putting it in the music is narrower in scope and as a listener it becomes "samey" after a while.

Flute and violin bother me too, generally in flamenco. Why not oboe? Oboe has a more more flamenco feeling, but oboe is just not cool, flamencos need to be cool. Yusef Lateef playing oboe on a few cuts of Pacos albums would have been super interesting, but it never went that way. Tony Levin's bass sound in the 1970s and early 80's was also in the air and similar in the rumble to Benevent, but somehow much more varied, I don't get ear fatigue for his bass playing.

Paco hired his friend and they made a group sound, but I don't have to like the total sound to like Paco, just like a few of Miles' records where I don't like the choice of guitarist. In the end I bought both the Miles albums and the Paco albums. My vote counts.

Now Geddy Lee, there is a farter extrordinaire. Tony Levin farts a bit too. They all fart on occasion, the bass is just at that end of the human body.

Simon did you fart as a bassist too? Be honest.

To be fair I will write Peter Gabriel a letter today and ask him to edit all of Tony Levin's fart noise off his albums next time they are re-released.

I hope that makes you at least smile.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 0:19:37
 
estebanana

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Shy away from flatulent bass timbre? You might suffer from 'BFS' Bass Fart Sensitivity.
BFS is nothing to be ashamed of and many people you see on the street may also suffer from BSF.
BSF is treatable with the correct medication, consult your doctor or pharmacist to see which BFS medications are right for you.
Many drugs are available over the counter which will help you cope with the socially crippling effects of BFS.

*ring ring*

Hello?
Hi Tom, want to go to see a flamenco show tonight? There is a GREAT bass player in the band.
Sure George, let me check my schedule, hold on a minute. *Tom makes sure he has his BSF medication in his shirt pocket*
I'm good to go George! See you at 8pm!

Don't let the problems of BFS short change your social life. Get checked out for BSF and ask your doctor which drug is right for you.
Noflatulentazine, Fartopio and Steinberger Wort are all approved drugs.

Get out and hear live bass music with out the fear and anxiety !

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 0:56:24
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Hahaha Now available in Flute! Lolol

Different strokes for different folks. It does seem that working pros are far more tolerant than regular Joes. I'm somewhere in the middle. I can handle it to an extant but it's not my preference, it's better than most other instruments people try and sneak in there. Lakshmi's Dad played the double bass at her shows both times I've seen her and it was fine and even filled in some things kind of nicely.
I oddly really enjoy the accordion in Silia Y Tiempo, would like to hear more of that....,maybe that's just cus I'm a sucker for Ramon Ayala.....

Hopefully hasta pronto Todd.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 1:14:56
 
estebanana

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

I like the Tres in Son de la Frontera.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 1:43:38
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

Now that this discussion has turned off-topic, just a few thoughts about different instruments in flamenco.
Again, I believe that its more about how they are being used than it is about the instrument itself.
I personally strongly dislike flamenco with string arrangements where you have classical violinists and cello players playing with a score and with a classical tone and attitude to the music. IMHO, it just kills the flamenco spirit and feel.

On the other hand, instruments dont have to sound like their classical versions.
As an example: Where a classical (mozart concert) clarinet sound would (IMHO) be really far out in flamenco, a Bulgarian folk clarinet sound would be interesting (they often turn around the mouth-piece and play with a much larger opening, giving the instrument a very different sound and feel.)
Classical esthetics just dont work with flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 9:19:33
 
Piwin

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Agreed. Also, I had completely forgotten about the Habichuela/Holland collaboration that is a good example of how the double bass can be used while still keeping a strong flamenco feel. Recently there was a concert that brought together Nino Josele, Chano Dominguez and Avishai Cohen on double bass. Probably more jazz-oriented but I'd be curious to know what the end result sounded like since those are 3 tremendous artists.
I wonder though if part of it is just everyone's personal comfort level with the limits between flamenco and world/jazz music. I'm personnally usually skeptical whenever a bass is introduced because it usually implies a more jazz-oriented work, which isn't really my cup of tea (not to say there aren't, of course, absolutely brilliant pieces that fit in that category). The bass does bring you pretty far from the traditional sound of flamenco, though that may just be my own impression. To get back to your point Anders, I guess my question would be this: Is there such a thing as kinship between certain instruments and certain styles of music, e.g. is it harder to sound flamenco with an accordeon or a tuba, a picolo or a theremin? Or is it only just the way the instrument is played that will determine whether or not it "fits" into a give musical style? Personally I think there may be a little bit of both in the mix.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 10:19:45
 
Dudnote

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

On the other hand, instruments dont have to sound like their classical versions.

The Piano Jondo album of Diego Amador is an awesome example.

Muy Muy Flamenco!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 10:53:14
 
El Kiko

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From: The South Ireland

RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to Dudnote

I know theres always been a trend here to not like Bass in flamenco , but I always did like it , and even more the fretless type ..
I think it adds a lot to to overall music ...
obviously we would be in a modern context .
as with everything , the talent of a good bass player should shine through , and you have to know when not to play ...
but yes ,, i like it

there I said it ............

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 11:04:02
 
gj Michelob

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to El Kiko

There are restaurants in Italy where the request to sprinkle some Parmiggiano Cheese on the Bolognese Sauce (more accurately, "Ragout") is met with outrage, criticized as heresy and ultimately denied.

Vicente Amigo had added Bass, Flute, Violin, Harmonica and even a full Strings and Winds Orchestra. I continue to believe that his music was conceived for "solo" guitar, and anything else added to it sounds like a commercial interrupting the narrative of a good movie.

Etevan summed it quite well back in 2011

"Well there you go, like so many things it's just a matter of taste.
I remember hearing Almoraima for the first time. I was being blown away by this amazing piece, man, and then suddenly I'm saying "Hey, what's that weird farting noise? A bass?! WTF?!"
Really spoils a great piece.

_______________________________________
quote:
Wasn't Paco the first to include Bass in flamenco?
_______________________________________

Not to mention...bongos!

Ah well...Paco can do what he likes."

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=157061&appid=&p=&mpage=1

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 13:51:24
 
mecmachin

 

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000

listen to "corazon y bordon" de paco cepero; a solo guitar album;
with electric bass, fretted, but sometimes bright sounding (nasal);
no need to discuss the quality of this music;
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2016 20:14:15
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Is there such a thing as kinship between certain instruments and certain styles of music, e.g. is it harder to sound flamenco with an accordeon or a tuba, a picolo or a theremin? Or is it only just the way the instrument is played that will determine whether or not it "fits" into a give musical style?


Well, I agree. Its most probably a mix. Piccolo... oh can they be very fluty...
Dont say accordeon. Its a very big bag of instruments. The small 1 or 2 row diatonic accordeons have a lovely sound that could very well fit into flamenco, Just the the same with the concertina. The problem with these instruments is that tonally they might be difficult to use. Some notes are more complicated to play than others and on the small accordeons, some dont exist (which is why the big accordeons exists) so the "play" with the high and low third in the scale is very difficult.
I have a friend working with using a lever harp in flamenco. Difficult task, but she is from jerez and has a natural compás and thats always a good start.
The horns can be flamenco in my ears. Its just been Semana Santa and every day we had the horns walking up and down the streets playing Saetas. Again, they play with this open folk sound and not this supercontrolled tight classical sound. I have no problems imagining a siguiriyas for horns and singer only. A bulerias.... maybe not.
But since this is not really a flamenco forum but more a 99% flamenco-guitar forum, I can imagine its not the best place to discuss these things.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2016 7:34:37
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