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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Leñador)
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I would have forsaken all the performances I've seen over the years of Paco Pena, Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo, Canizares, and others for one evening of being with those guys in that video. To me, that's real flamenco the way it should be enjoyed. None of the polished, programmed performance one sees on a stage while sitting in an auditorium. And I would be sitting there with a copita of jerez fino in front of me, just like Turronero. For one evening, I could even put up with all the smoke from their incessant smoking. No polish, no "fusion." Just straight up flamenco.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 9 2016 1:49:39
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
I'll tell you I really dislike smoking or being around it,but there are a few people who I know who smoke who I make an exception for because they are exceptional people who happen to smoke.
I'm with you on smoking, Stephen. I have never taken up smoking, even as a teenager. Nothing to do with morality or anything else, other than it just did not appeal to me, and I did not like the taste when I tried it a couple of times. But I would put up with others smoking if they were special friends. And I certainly would have put up with the smoke to have been able to sit in on the session caught in the video of Camaron, Turronero, Paco Cepero and Paco de Lucia. Still, I do not understand the lure of smoking with its proven connection to lung cancer and other diseases. Seems to me to be a pretty risky activity, but individuals have a right to their pleasure, even when it involves risk.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 9 2016 13:42:35
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Leñador)
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I started smoking when I was 16, to be a cool guy in high school and with the older musicians I hung with. Maybe 4 or 5 cigarettes per day until I was 28. Then I got my first 8 hours/day desk job, solving math and physics problems that nobody else in the company could, except for my boss and one of my pals. Spent a lot of time staring at the ceiling thinking, "OK, that didn't work, now what do I try next?" Cigarette consumption shot up to a pack a day. Made me feel bad, so I quit.
But my sweet and pretty young wife smoked. Saturday morning over a second cup of coffee, I would reach for one of hers. Before long I would be back at it.
Finally I asked her if she would quit for me. In an amazing act of generosity, she did.
Years later we were driving down the street when she said, "Do you know what day today is?"
Crap, what have I done now? "Um, no, can't say that I do."
"It's been ten years since I had a cigarette."
"And you still want one?"
"Yes."
I bought her a dozen roses and took her out to a nice dinner.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 10 2016 4:13:55
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Well put, DavRom. As I mentioned in my post above, I think Paco Cepero is as fine an accompanist as they come. And yet I think he is under-rated. No one brings up his name (except perhaps me, and now you) when we speak of very good tocaors and accompanists. Particularly his earlier play is first-rate. As I mentioned in the same post, I also think Ramon de Algeciras is under-rated. His play is also first-rate. But he played in the shadow of his brother Paco de Lucia.
Bill
Cepero is the heir to a long tradition in Jerez. He is among the last students of Javier Molina (1868-1956). Javier, his brother the dancer Antonio Molina and Antonio Chacon all grew up together in the Barrio Santiago. They went on a walking tour of nearby provinces in 1885, supporting themselves by performing in bars and taverns along the way. Later Javier worked in Sevilla, Extremadura and Madrid. He worked with the near-legendary figures Patiño and Paco Lucena.
Javier Molina owned a tablao that employed both Niño Ricardo and Manolo de Huelva. These two can be heard in recordings playing the same falsetas, but each with his individual style.
Molina taught the Morao brothers Manuel Moreno (known both as Moraíto and Manuel Morao) and Juan Moreno (known as Moraíto Chico), the father of the recently deceased Moraíto Chico II.
So Cepero was off to a good start on the excellence he has so brilliantly displayed.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 11 2016 5:41:41
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Ricardo)
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Found some documentation for a story about Manolo Sanlucar I remembered:
http://tinyurl.com/gwmk7yr
"Nació y creció en un ambiente flamenco, ya que su padre fue un gran aficionado a la guitarra, hasta el punto de que buscó como maestro a uno de los guitarristas más importantes de aquella época, como lo fue Javier Molina. "Afortunadamente, esa fue la decisión que marcaría su vida y la de sus hijos", dice el propio Manolo Sanlúcar en sus memorias.
Las enseñanzas recibidas por Isidro Muñoz, padre de Manolo, le habían obligado a desplazarse en bicicleta cada día de clase desde Sanlúcar a Jerez de la Frontera, ciudad donde residía el maestro Javier Molina.
El joven Manolo Muñoz recibió de su padre toda la sabiduría guitarrística que éste había asimilado durante las clases recibidas en Jerez. Mirando hacia atrás en el tiempo, el actual Manolo Sanlúcar considera las clases con su padre "un tipo de enseñanza seria y rigurosa que aún hoy me sirve como ejemplo a seguir". Y fue un ejemplo que fructificó espléndidamente en el joven "Sanlúcar", ya que desde muy pequeño mostró hallarse extraordinariamente dotado para seguir la senda marcada por el padre."
Manolo's father was a guitarist as well. He took lessons from Javier Molina, going daily from Sanlucar de Barrameda to Jerez on his bicycle. (25 or 30 km, much of it up hill--but you could coast a bit on the way back.)
Manolo's father Isidro Muñoz was his main teacher. Manolo was working professionally with Pepe Marchena before he was 14 years old.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 11 2016 23:58:11
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
We have discussed Cepero tons in the past. Remember this one?
Actually, I had forgotten it, Ricardo. In spite of the derogatory nature of the thread's title ("Cepero Elevator Music"), there were quite a few comments (including yours and mine!) praising Paco Cepero's playing. He's always good, but I really like his earlier playing better than some of his later stuff. Nevertheless, a few years ago he came out with a CD entitled "Morrongo," in which he accompanied the old cantaor (and blacksmith by trade) Santiago Donday to great effect.
Overall, Paco Cepero probably will never be counted among the very top tocaors (PDL, Sabicas, etc.) but I don't think he can be topped as an accompanist. He probably will take his place, as Somerset Maugham once described his place among authors, as "not in the very top tier, but in the very first row of the second tier." Not a bad accomplishment for a fine artist.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 12 2016 11:27:05
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
We have discussed Cepero tons in the past. Remember this one?
Actually, I had forgotten it, Ricardo. In spite of the derogatory nature of the thread's title ("Cepero Elevator Music"), there were quite a few comments (including yours and mine!) praising Paco Cepero's playing. He's always good, but I really like his earlier playing better than some of his later stuff. Nevertheless, a few years ago he came out with a CD entitled "Morrongo," in which he accompanied the old cantaor (and blacksmith by trade) Santiago Donday to great effect.
Overall, Paco Cepero probably will never be counted among the very top tocaors (PDL, Sabicas, etc.) but I don't think he can be topped as an accompanist. He probably will be take his place, as Somerset Maugham once described his place among authors, as "not in the very top tier, but in the very first row of the second tier." Not a bad accomplishment for a fine artist.
Bill
Again, I must point out at least I gave my opinion that the guy was not only the best accompanist but also had the fastest picado I have clocked:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grisha
I thought Juan Manuel Canizares was very good at improvising judging from his videos with Paco and Bandera. You can see Paco looking at him with admiration at times during his solos. I only saw him give that look when he played with McLaughlin.
I think Cañizares inspired Paco because of his modern approach. After all I personally never got into his sound or style. When he plays with Paco it's very nice harmonies and such, but when they improvise I feel he doesn't keep up with Paco or Banderas interms of control of tone and speed. He often bends notes but they are always sharp pitchwise...as coming from electric school I think it is a lot nicer to fret a flat note and bend into a chord tone or whatever, but even still it sounds kindof silly on nylon.
I often forget about THIS guy's ridiculous speed on picados, mainly because in my mind he is the ultimate cante accompanist. A little crazy control wise but the expression and speed he always had was amazing. I clock him at 117-120 plus with these picados:
http://youtu.be/lO3BRotMufY
in case you all want to argue again that he isn't making 32nd notes (  ) here is a slower groovy version you can hear it more clearly how fast he is going on those same runs at 102 or so:
http://youtu.be/3b2uDrB9ggk
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 12 2016 16:49:33
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Escribano)
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Thanks Simon and Orson (and Ricardo above) for reminding me that there have been some good discussions on the Foro paying homage to Paco Cepero's fine playing and accompaniment. In reviewing them, I find that I even contributed to some of them. I guess there has been so much praise for PDL, Vicente Amigo, Tomatito, and others over the years that I tend to think Paco Cepero has been under-rated. I still think he may be under-rated by many, but it is good to be reminded that there are many who consider him a first-rate tocaor and accompanist.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 13 2016 11:39:27
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