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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
A friend of mine was a close friend and student, and when Ed passed his widow unloaded some cool stuff on him. Namely, a 60's era Ramirez I got to play the other day that was just fantastic. He also was a luthier apparently as my friend has one of his personally constructed guitars as well. Glancing at his transcriptions I found it odd he viewed the Phrygian key forms as actually in the normal major key, with accidentals against the key signature all over the place. For example siguiriyas por medio or Alegrias in A major would have the same key signature.
Yes, you mentioned that the last time we saw one another in Alexandria. I knew the person you refer to, though more as an acquaintance than as a close friend.
One of the conditions of being Ed's student was that his transcriptions were absolutely not to be shared with anybody. Letting someone else even see them was absolutely forbidden, and all his students I knew followed the prohibition strictly. My impression of their accuracy was based on the playing of Ed's students. What they played accurately reproduced what was on the recording it was taken from. On another instrument I had spent a fair amount of time copping stuff off records.
There was a website a few years ago with some of Ed's transcriptions reproduced, but i didn't try to play any, and I don't remember much about them.
The few lessons I took in Triana followed what I think was the usual format at the time. The teacher would play a falseta, first slowly, then up to tempo. The student was expected to follow along, guitar in hand, learning at least to reproduce the sequence of notes, and the techniques. At the next lesson the student was expected to play the falseta accurately, and reasonably close to the desired tempo.
I sat in on a couple of Ed's lessons with a friend. They proceeded in much the same manner, except that Ed suffered from arthritis and was sometimes unable to play at the desired tempo. An addition to the lesson format was that the student was given a score of the falseta in standard notation. If Ed couldn't play it the way he wanted, the tempo would be marked out in palmas or knuckles rapped on the table, with Ed vocalizing. I only had brief glimpses of the scores, so I may not have noticed the eccentricities of notation you mention. Ed certainly was aware of the modal structure of flamenco, and discussed it in the lessons I sat in on.
I learned a lot hanging out with some of his students in Austin.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 21 2016 22:12:25
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobJe
Perhaps we were there at the same time?
I visited Zambra in Madrid in 1968. I was advised by a Spaniard to dress smartly and behave myself. The owner, Fernan Casares insisted on respect for the artists. This marked the place out from other tablaos. La Zambra was dominated by singers. It opened in 1954 in c Ruiz de Alarcon 7 and closed in 1975.
I was there a few years earlier, in 1964-65. Yes, the clientele were well dressed and well behaved. I had a tweed sport jacket that fit right in. After a few visits, Spanish acquaintances told me that many of the young men dressed in tweed jackets and ties, with horn rimmed glasses and tobacco pipes, accompanied by their dates in cardigans, pleated skirts and sensible shoes, were intellectuals who listened to flamenco as a form of silent protest against the Fascist government of Franco.
There were a lot of bars in Madrid, and even a few in Sevilla with insets in the tile walls reading, "Se Prohibe el Cante""
I had a few casual conversations with these people, who were indeed intellectuals, but of course they would say nothing whatsoever about politics to a stranger.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 21 2016 22:25:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
I only had brief glimpses of the scores, so I may not have noticed the eccentricities of notation you mention. Ed certainly was aware of the modal structure of flamenco, and discussed it in the lessons I sat in on.
I said they were "odd", mainly because I had not yet seen it done that way. For sure he was driving home, with a sledge hammer, the modal concept that the major triad home chord is tonic, and by that I mean "in the major key of". Most transcribers have taken the position that phyrgian tonic is closest to the dominant of a minor key, and thus use the minor key signature instead. I first thought using the parallel minor key sig might make more sense (only need a b2 accidental most of the time), but later realized he wanted to make sure that the MAJOR triad was understood as being the "key tonic" ...and this doesn't happen with modes, rather it is the basis of do re mi fa sol la si, or tonal major keys. And further, probably was thinking, as a jazzer, of the scale being altered from basic 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 concept (again do re mi or the Ionian scale), so he had to take the time to notate b2,b3,b6,b7 at EVERY occurrence.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 21 2016 22:43:13
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Grisha)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grisha
It's nice to find out your art has zero merit for some people. But I already knew that.
Grisha, if I have inadvertently touched a sore nerve, I apologize heartily. I have greatly enjoyed both of your concerts I have heard here in Austin.
And I will mention that the first time I saw Ricardo perform in Alexandria, at a different venue than his present one, my first remark after I introduced myself was, "I really like what you are playing."
The reason, if it can be expressed in words, is that in your playing and Ricardo's, for me it is about the music. It conveys emotion. It doesn't literally tell a story, but the sequence of emotions is akin to that of a good story. Though for me good music is generally far stronger than literature.
In some other players these days it seems to me to be mainly about novelty and virtuosity, which hold little interest. But if others enjoy them, maybe they hear something else. That's great. To repeat a recent famous quotation, "Who am I to judge?"
I'm a fan of classical guitar as well. Some players elicit strong emotions from me. Some of the younger ones are amazingly virtuosic, but move me very little.
David Russell and Berta Rojas were here recently. Each of them had a strong emotional effect for me, though each in their own way. A young winner of famous competitions was more virtuosic even than Russell, but that was about the only thing about his playing that made an impression on me.
I first heard Manuel Barrueco in a concert we in the old Austin Guitar Society put on here. He had just graduated from conservatory. Both his virtuosity and his expressiveness were shocking.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 21 2016 22:48:43
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
David Russell and Berta Rojas were here recently
Berta Rojas is a fantastic classical guitarist. She has taught at George Washington University in Washington, DC for several years and has performed at various venues in the area. I am a member of an organization comprised of both active and retired diplomats and foreign policy/national security officials, and we invite both speakers on foreign affairs to present programs and a couple of musicians to perform each year. We have twice invited Berta Rojas, and she was magnificent on both occasions.
As an interesting side note, when Berta first came to Washington many years ago, my friend and flamenco guru Paco de Malaga owned and operated the Guitar Gallery on Connecticut Ave. In addition to selling instruments, he had a stable of guitar instructors who gave lessons, and he gave Berta her first job as a classical guitar instructor. After she became established she went off on her own. On one of the occasions Berta performed for our diplomatic group, I invited Paco and his wife Ana as my guests, knowing that he had given her her first job in Washington. After the performance, we went back to visit with Berta, and she was delighted to get together with her old friend again, and Marta and I were delighted and privileged to be introduced to her by Paco.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 22 2016 15:26:08
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Grisha)
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Eloquently written and compelling points. Thank you, Grisha.
I enjoyed Vicente Amigo's concert last week in SF, immensely, but cannot disagree that his repertory may now appear repetitive. In fact, I was wondering how the vast majority of the audience who was not acquainted with his music would react.
Unlike many here (and I apologize for my unorthodox views) I wish Vicente had played entirely and exclusively "solo". I believe that his music is inherently composed for his guitar to sing and dance, and does not invite nor does it compliment vocals or -worse- dance.
I felt that adding those components was an astutely devised stratagem to win the otherwise feeble attention of the generic audience. The exaggerated manifestations of excitement that greeted the picturesque costume and moves of the Baiaor confirmed that his scheme worked, and that the audience had no real understanding of Vicente's unique talent.
I have always enjoyed solo guitar, even though I slowly learned to appreciate the role of Cante and occasionally I intentionally will listen to Paco and Camaron. But nothing moves me and inspires as does the music of a solo instrument. That is when guitars are "Ventanas al Alma"
quote:
I noticed that Vicente was overusing the same tonality, and he doesn't use capo much. His music is beautiful and he plays with incredible sensitivity and technical virtuosity, but his style is so unique and recognizable that after a while every piece starts to sound similar to the rest. He needs to think more about programming, what comes after what. If done right, it will feel like a musical journey.
I understand the excitement of a flamenco get together (been there), and I appreciate a show with lots of cante and baile. Seeing Agujetas was a special experience, and Andres Marin was phenomenal (although very few flamencos came to see him). My favorite show so far was Estrella Morente last year. Just perfect in every sense. But at the same time I feel flamenco guitar has evolved into a very advance art form that can have its own audience. Solo guitar has its own merit, but it takes more effort for the audience to follow and usually more effort to perform.
I grew up outside of the whole rock culture, and never even attended a rock concert. I know a lot of the foro members used to play in a band, while I never did. Musically I was brought up in a more academic way where you were not to make a noise during a performance and just clap politely at the end (perhaps a quiet "bravo"). Maybe because of that sitting through a classical concert feels right to me but induces yawns for some people here that are more used to the loud fun setting of a band performance.
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gj Michelob
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Date Mar. 22 2016 22:58:34
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Piwin)
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Grisha,
You're a fine guitar player, top end of the spectrum. But you exist in an in between space and that causes you headaches. In Spain all the big soloists who are flamenco grew up playing accompaniment, the list of solo players who made a living doing accompaniment is a who's who list of artists, beginning with Paco de Lucia.
None of us non Spanish who are guitar players really grew up hearing cante or watched older players accompany, it is hard for us and in Spain is is expected that a soloist will accompany or is a master of playing for singers. Even non Spanish afcionados tend to judge solo players on this skill basis and that is why there are comments that give friction.
Even if you had grown up and were a leader in accompaniment as you are in classical playing, musicianship and interpretation of flamenco set pieces by past masters, you would still have a similar headache because some afcionandos would complain you don't accompany the way they like. For example an older afcionado might say "Today's younger players can play for cante like Juan Habichulela" and a group of dance students would say we have no use for Juan Habichuela because that archaic stuff does not fit modern choreography." It goes on and on and on and half of it is just dogmatic talking out of ones butt.
Abraham Lincoln said you can't make all the people happy all the time, if he had been a flamenco aficionado or accompanist he might have said, "You can't make anyone happy ever, and everyone is a stubborn jerk who want is their own way all the time."
I've heard guitar player tell dancers " Hey look babe, I'm not a radio sitting here for you to twittle knobs on while you figure out if this is in compas."
It's all fraught with struggle and people who wish you could be a mind reader. Solo players are in some respects liberated from that hive mentality and it is a advantage, it allows you to focus on your playing and not worry if you are going to get tangled up in some manton drama. The other end of that is aficionados say those solo players who did not grow up accompanying baile and cante are getting off Scott free! They don't take responsibility for being a flamenco player in the sense that you can handle ensemble playing.
Here is an analogy- A person is really good at playing Theorbo, right, the long necked lute from the time of Monteverdi. What if a guy could play all the solo literature for theorbo, like Girolamo Kapsberger's music, *which I tend to think is very nice and often flamenco reminiscent* the guy can totally shred. he got it all from Robert de Visee back to late 16th century Italian music. Then someone says to the theorbist, "Can you play continuo? "
What happens when he answers back? If he say yes they might want him to play in a band and he'll have to play to fit the ensemble, if he says no, then there is a set up for friction between continuo players a non continuo players. It is the same old thing. And fretted string players always have had the same situation through out history. Since fretted instrument can accompany themselves so to speak they don't need a band, yet they also fit into bands as an intrinsic part of the sonikete.
The fact of the matter is, if you play a fretted instrument you are *f-knje-ucked because the age old dichotomy arises in every genre, including flamenco.
The silver lining of this cloudy friction is that for you, granted there is time your schedule, there are options. Number one is that you can go hang out with Uncle Jason and he will show you everything you ever wanted to know about dancers toes and singers' frilly scarves. And, and the beautiful thing about it is that if you did go hang with Uncle Jason anything you two guys cook up musically will be a commercial slam dunk to sell tickets to a show at some venue like Yerba Buena Center.
You should not feel bad, but think about this, aficionados are like children that need attention, they all want ice creams and hamburgers and they want special flavors. Each kid wants a different flavor. One way to make all the kids happy is to say "Ok kids get in the mini van we are going to up to Oakland to visit Uncle Jason and go to the park for the day!"
Then all the kids say !Yeah daddy! !Solo guitar daddy! Then you play the show and all the noisy self interested aficionado kids take the afternoon nap and you and Jason have a beer.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 23 2016 0:47:07
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to gj Michelob)
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I'm not sure if VA earns more money by bringing extra players. Certainly he sells more tickets, and he brings new listeners and makes new fans. Maybe the better choice long term. But the expense of bringing five musicians on tour may not be recouped by the additional ticket sales. VA did four nights in SF. I have no idea how many tickets he would have sold to a solo show, so I really can't say if bringing the group was a business decision, but I don't think so. It's more fun to play with, and travel with a group, than alone. It is also the expected format at this point. I often think of the David Serva's reply when he was
asked if he preferred to play solo or with a cuadro. He said "Well, when you play solo you get to keep all the money"
quote:
ORIGINAL: gj Michelob
Eloquently written and compelling points. Thank you, Grisha.
I enjoyed Vicente Amigo's concert last week in SF, immensely, but cannot disagree that his repertory may now appear repetitive. In fact, I was wondering how the vast majority of the audience who was not acquainted with his music would react.
Unlike many here (and I apologize for my unorthodox views) I wish Vicente had played entirely and exclusively "solo". I believe that his music is inherently composed for his guitar to sing and dance, and does not invite nor does it compliment vocals or -worse- dance.
I felt that adding those components was an astutely devised stratagem to win the otherwise feeble attention of the generic audience. The exaggerated manifestations of excitement that greeted the picturesque costume and moves of the Baiaor confirmed that his scheme worked, and that the audience had no real understanding of Vicente's unique talent.
I have always enjoyed solo guitar, even though I slowly learned to appreciate the role of Cante and occasionally I intentionally will listen to Paco and Camaron. But nothing moves me and inspires as does the music of a solo instrument. That is when guitars are "Ventanas al Alma"
quote:
I noticed that Vicente was overusing the same tonality, and he doesn't use capo much. His music is beautiful and he plays with incredible sensitivity and technical virtuosity, but his style is so unique and recognizable that after a while every piece starts to sound similar to the rest. He needs to think more about programming, what comes after what. If done right, it will feel like a musical journey.
I understand the excitement of a flamenco get together (been there), and I appreciate a show with lots of cante and baile. Seeing Agujetas was a special experience, and Andres Marin was phenomenal (although very few flamencos came to see him). My favorite show so far was Estrella Morente last year. Just perfect in every sense. But at the same time I feel flamenco guitar has evolved into a very advance art form that can have its own audience. Solo guitar has its own merit, but it takes more effort for the audience to follow and usually more effort to perform.
I grew up outside of the whole rock culture, and never even attended a rock concert. I know a lot of the foro members used to play in a band, while I never did. Musically I was brought up in a more academic way where you were not to make a noise during a performance and just clap politely at the end (perhaps a quiet "bravo"). Maybe because of that sitting through a classical concert feels right to me but induces yawns for some people here that are more used to the loud fun setting of a band performance.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
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Date Mar. 23 2016 15:17:20
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Piwin)
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Yes, I think you got something there. A large stage show with dancers has to tour with two guitarists, two main dancers, two singers and maybe a percussionist-optional and two palmas players. And and stage manager.
For a big company it is really about 8 to 10 persons on tour and maybe more. For a guitarist to take 4 extra people seems gracious of them. The first time I saw Amigo he was by himself and he pulled 3000 listeners into theater. Most of them were not flamenco hardcore fans, but a mix of American music lover and Spaniards living over seas and guitar nerds. Half men and half women.
At the time his music was being played on TV all the time in Spain and he was certainly at the peak of fame back home. And of course remains and icon of Spanish music. I think most audience members were there because he was representing home to to them. Local kid makes good, tours world, not to be missed.
Much the same thing happened with Cigala, you could see flamenco people in the audience here and there, but mainly 3000 pisanos wanting a taste of back home, plus Latin Americans who wanted to hear him because he had a suave presence on Spanish radio stations. It was a white minority audience.
Cigala sang once por Solea and then it was a bolero festival. You could see flamencos in the audience looking at their watches. Audiences are like Iguanas, if they don't like the kind of lettuce the artists throw them they won't eat it.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 23 2016 22:54:35
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
This one?
Yep. That's as good as it gets Lenny. There are other good videos of Ramon de Algeciras and Paco Cepero accompanying Camaron as well. But that one with Camaron, Turronero, Paco Cepero, and Paco de Lucia around the table, rapping knuckles on the table for palmas (I don't think PDL had introduced the cajon from Peru yet), and with Paco Cepero accompanying, is flamenco at its best. And the camera even focused in on the copita of jerez fino (or manzanilla) in front of Turronero. Jerez served as it should be, in a copita, not in the silly glasses most restaurants and bars in the U.S. serve it in. Adds an exquisite touch to the whole scene. Would love to have been there!
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 8 2016 23:08:37
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