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Picado is Impossible!
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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 RE: Picado is Impossible! (in reply to rombsix)
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There is a lot of information on this website about picado. I recommend searching for posts by Grisha, Toddk, and Ricardo, as their technical advice is uniformly excellent.
I'm not sure they would agree with me, though, that in order to play fast, you need to convince your fingers that they can play fast.
One trick for sprinters is to run downhill. This gets the feeling of fast running into the legs and helps them develop that speed.
The trick that helped me break through to play fast (I can alternate im in excess of 200 bpm sixteenths for bursts), is to just learn how to play two notes fast. The way I did it was to play the first note, and as I was playing it, already start playign the other. It's hard to describe, but what you're looking for is a flam. A flam is when two percussion hits happen almost simultaneously, with just a slight delay on the 2nd. You can get your fingers going with flams on the string.
If you can play two notes really fast, then you just add another. And then you can do the Scott Tennant Pumping Nylon stacatto exercises (get the DVD, it's very good), which will help you control it a bit more.
But please read the recent post by Grisha in the picado thread in Audio Uploads. A lot of useful info there.
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Date Jan. 14 2006 21:34:52
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Chansey
Posts: 19
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
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RE: Picado is Impossible! (in reply to rombsix)
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Sometimes I wonder if PDL's picado was in him the moment he was born. True, he did practise for 12 hours everyday, so that could be part of it. I mean, take a look at the picados of Amigo, Tomatito or Nunez...some of the greatest names in flamenco now. They have some great picados, far far above the average player(though I always felt Tomatito was somewhat lacking in his picado and tremolo...no offense) Yet, somehow none of them come as clean or as fast as PDL. Hell, he was even keeping up note for note with the jazz pickers on "Friday Night In San Francisco", and though that was more of a circus act thing, in terms of speed it is mind blowing. The physics of flatpicking mean that with small wrist movements you can play more notes with minimal effort, and for single line playing it is difficult to match it with IMO the less "muscle efficient" picado. Furthermore, Al Di Meola and Joh Mclaughlin are not exactly slow jazz players...I have heard them rip before, and they are as fast as most 80's rock players.
This technical mastery is probably the reason why I love his Aranjuez performances. No classical guitarist whom I heard perform Aranjuez so far has had the chops to pull off the quick picados in the first movement at that insane tempo...well ok Pepe Romero is pretty fast too. Except that I am guessing he is using tirando picado which to my ears sound weak. Maybe I am wrong, though you have to agree that Paco's version is one of the most technical.
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Date Jan. 15 2006 4:57:40
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Picado is Impossible! (in reply to rombsix)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rombsix
About my last posting: I have been playing for 4 years but I don't actually practice that long everyday (for about one hour max. per day). By now, I have reached about 140 bpm sixteenths. How long do you guys think it would take me to get to PDL speed at this rate?
1- Are all you guys pro flamenco players or just play flamenco as a hobby?
2- Is it possible to be able to play PDL pieces if flamenco is only a hobby? or does it need like five hours of practice daily?
3- What age (approximately) would you expect that one will start regressing in terms of technique and playing-ability due to age?
4- How long should one practice (on average) if one aims at playing PDL pieces?
Rombsix,
I find this line of questioning odd. Anyway, to answer you, I don't think you can learn to play at a pro level without 2-4 hours of practice a day. There are exceptions, a guy named Jerzy in Mexico plays very well and if I recall he is extremely busy. However, he is also very focused and patient--can you be that?
Pro guitarists? There are several here. Pretty much the ones who play really well.
Can you play PDL pieces if you are a just a hobbyist? Not unless your name is Jerzy.
What age do you regress? Well, I'm 31 so I guess I'm one foot into the grave! Paco must be almost 60 and he still rips. A lot of flamenco guitarists can still play fast picado at that age. However, Gerardo Nunez said in an interview that we're more virtuosic when we're 19 or so, if I recall. So it might all be downhill from here! Realistically, from listening to CDs it seems guys can retain good technique at least until their 50's, if not much longer.
How long should one practice? I would be shocked to find a great player who did not practice at least 2-4 hours a day. Often teh good ones will go through phases where they practice for 8-10+.
But you are putting the cart before the horse. You don't start from nothing and start busting out PDL pieces. This is like you saying, I've been in school for 4 years now, when do I get to start operating on people's brains? When do I get the cranium? I would say that playing high-level guitar is at least as challenging (if not as messy or stressful) as what a surgeon does. It would follow that you would need to acquire a comparable level of knowledge.
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Date Jan. 15 2006 14:29:13
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Picado is Impossible! (in reply to rombsix)
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quote:
1- Are all you guys pro flamenco players or just play flamenco as a hobby?
2- Is it possible to be able to play PDL pieces if flamenco is only a hobby? or does it need like five hours of practice daily?
3- What age (approximately) would you expect that one will start regressing in terms of technique and playing-ability due to age?
4- How long should one practice (on average) if one aims at playing PDL pieces?
1. some of us are pro, some for hobby. Remember "pro" just means we get paid to accompany or perform solo. One could be on a "pro level" and still have it as a hobby. Ottmar Leibert is a "pro" flamenco player who plays at an embarrasingly low level. I have a friend who is an "amature" who works for DOE as consultant for nuclear waste disposal...he PERFORMED ONCE with Paco de Lucia in the 70's. Obviously he is at a "pro" level even though it is a hobby.
2. Of course. You can buy the music and start working on it right now, anyone can, no practice. But will it be good? You have to decide how well or close to "pro" you want to play. You should understand that real "pro" flamenco players understand you don't and SHOULD NOT be approaching flamenco from the point of view of "pieces" of music to master. It is more simple, just falsetas, rhythm. Almost all pros can play SOME of Paco's falsetas. What separates "pro" from "amature", and even "good" from "great" playing, is COMPAS. No harm with an amature having fun hacking through a piece by Paco. But a "pro" can't waste his time with that. Just getting one useful falseta tight and solid is all you need to work in the pro flamenco world.
3. Entropy, all things are breaking down NOW. But honestly, it is about when you have time to focus. Young teenagers have no job, liscense, or toys to worry about so it is a perfect age to focus on music. Adults have bigger responisabilities in life than learning to play perfectly in rhythm.
4.As long as it takes to play at an acceptable level for YOU. Paco practiced 12 hours a day when young. If you want to play LIKE him, you should do the same at least, until you have the compas very natural. Most important is to play as much as you want to and can. Remember to get feedback on your playing. Practice does not make "perfect". Practice makes perminant.
As far as SPEED. Well, gypsies born in spain, practicing 12 hrs like Paco, have been chasing his speed forever. A lot get close, but no one has "beaten" him really. Plus he has something extra interms of sound and feeling behind those speedy notes. Modern players have given up on the speed thing and focus on rhythmic sophistication. You will probably never match him either, but you can learn A LOT trying. Just be aware of your limits and progress, you will get faster. Be in control regardless. The fastest I have heard him on CD is his Farruca with the dancer where he speeds up. The fastest recording in tempo with a song I know of is "Chanela", a rumba around 115 bpm and he plays long i-m picados as 32 notes (16th at 230). His nephew JM Banderas does a short run that fast in the DVD Francisco Sanchez ("Cana de Azucar"). So good luck chasing them amigo!
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 16 2006 0:48:08
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gshaviv
Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel
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RE: Picado is Impossible! (in reply to rombsix)
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quote:
How long do you guys think it would take me to get to PDL speed at this rate?
You are approaching this the wrong way, in my oppinion. It completely doesn't matter if you get to play PDL speeds, you said it, you are doing this as a hobby, its not what you plan as your profession, so you don't need to be the best/fastest guitar player in the world. What is important is that you sound good and you enjoy your self. Speed and sounding good are not necessarily the same thing, to sound good in flamenco you need to understand the compas and live it. Focus on that, on understanding what flamenco is and then you'll enjoy it.
quote:
I am currently studying biology (as undergraduate) and plan on going to medical school next year.
Good for you, take that seriously and strive to be the best doctor you can. However, don't do the mistake I did. I played classical guitar from the age of 10 to about 25 when I stopped and abandoned it. I was studying engineering in the university and the playing got in its way. I never considered playing my career, however I had to practice about 3-4 hours a day just to maintain my playing skills. That didn't go well with the busy schedule of an engineering undergrad which caused me to stop.
I picked up the guitar again 3 years ago after 10 years of no playing and that's when I also picked up the flamenco (if you made the calculation you would derive I'm 38 today). Playing guitar brings me so much joy today, I don't understand why I ever stopped playing. The best part of my day is when I get back from work and relax by practicing for an hour. If instead of stopping playing altogether I would have just reduced my practice to somethine more manegable, even an hour a week is better then stopping.
What I mean to say is that remember its a hobby, its purpose it to bring you joy. If you enjoy it, keep doing it and don't worry about trying to beat PDL, its not what you are in it for.
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Date Jan. 16 2006 3:18:30
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Skai
Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004
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RE: Picado is Impossible! (in reply to rombsix)
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This Friday eh..? Every guy in Singapore has to go through this stage, we're FAR luckier than previous batches who had to spend 2.5 years at least! Remember that you're the 2nd year where this reduced policy came into place, I'm the first. 
I'm finally out of the 'no fingernails' phase but while I can't play for nuts without my nails, I still really really STRONGLY advise you to bring your Yamaha C40 in the next time you book in. You can barely practise right hand techniques, but you can still practise your left hand, sight reading etc. Plus it's enjoyable just playing abit every night.
Anyway, cut your nails off before going in. While you're nail-less, try playing without nails. While your nails finally grow back, you tend to have better accuracy and it teaches you the art of gripping quite effectively. At the moment, you tend to 'brush' rather than grip. You'll have problems playing louder if you don't fix this. Very short nails will force you to grip with whatever small bit of fingernails you have.
Enjoy yourself, it's your turn now.
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Date Jan. 16 2006 10:05:16
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ToddK
Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
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RE: Picado is Impossible! (in reply to rombsix)
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I remember Ricardo mentioning something about a close up
shot of Paco's picado, i think it may be Live in Germany, i dont know.
But he was saying you could see Paco's entire guitar moving/pulsating
in picado runs.
I think this is part of the big thing Paco has, that very few if any have.
He seems to be able to go into a run, and where ever the dynamics
are, he can always seem to take it up higher. Thats what really
blows me away.
He has this certain combonation of super tight staccato, with perfect eveness,
but there's also a firey, frantic side. Like he's right on the edge, yet he's
perfectly in control. ITs very hard to describe. He's the only one.
Grisha, your picado is out of this world.
You could share the stage with Paco any damn day.
Or maybe you have already? 
TK
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Date Jan. 17 2006 17:59:15
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Picado is Impossible! (in reply to rombsix)
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I wonder how much of this has to do with strength after all. Obviously at these levels we are talking about great muscle speed, optimization of your resources, probably even a lucky genetic draw as far as how the bones and fingers are configured, but what about strength. We are after all, moving something, doing work, and all things held equal greater strength would equal greater speed. It would seem that Paco must have very strong fingers, in a very specialized way. And Grisha, of course, your fingers must be strong too.
If I lower the tension on my strings, I can play a lot more quickly.
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Date Jan. 17 2006 18:14:47
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